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RE: How do you define submissive and slave? - 3/27/2009 9:04:39 PM

HeavansKeeper

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LAgirlsub

The terms seem somewhat interchangeable, but I wonder if there are some agreed elements to each.

For example, as I read around the subject more I think I’m a sub more I’d see myself as a slave. How I’m defining this is that I don’t have an interest in necessarily being owned. Nor I think some activities such as some types of humiliation. Yet I want to please a Mistress and submit to her.

So I wonder what your definition of these two terms are (and let’s not even add the term 'bottom').

I try not to drag any attention to potential differences. I'll almost always explain if I intend to use them interchangeably, expecting anyone who feels strongly about this matter to auto-correct and filter in their head. I usually use submissive or pet instead of slave because of the iron clad preconceived notions some have about the word. I know. I'm so boring.

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Post #: 41

RE: How do you define submissive and slave? - 3/27/2009 10:04:34 PM

LAgirlsub

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Not boring at all. Personally, I've struggled from the beginning with the word slave. I'd feel comfortable with pet, submissive or play partner. 'Pet' used in this context, in a connected (ok somewhat emotional way) feels fine. It's really fascinating when we might be talking about exactly the same thing yet a name carries so much connotation.

(in reply to HeavansKeeper)

Post #: 42

RE: How do you define submissive and slave? - 3/28/2009 2:41:53 AM

beeble

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From: UK
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quote:

marie2 wrote: The longer I have had ds experiences and the more relationships that I've had, the more I've come to the personal conclusion that masters and slaves and doms and subs and owners and keepers are basically mythical. At the end of the day, we're just people engaging in relationships and relating in a particular way to another human being under a particular dynamic that's mutually fulfilling. And there are just too many infinite variations and variables that can play into that dynamic or cause it to change, evolve, waiver, deepen, or even dissolve sometimes, therefore I don't see how it can be catagorized or defined. But then I don't see slavery (in our context) as being actual anyway, so the term "slave" may as well be fairie princess, or any other fantasy label you want to apply to it.

We need words for things so we can talk about them. I said, `I am Kita's fairie princess', you'd have no idea what I was talking about; if I say, `I am Kita's submissive', you at least have some idea. Maybe that's enough information for you already; maybe you still have questions but that's no different from all kinds of non-kinky things: if I said, `I am Fred's business partner', you might still have questions about what sort of business.

The problem, in my view, comes when people decide that these words are definitions, rather than just labels. Worrying at great length about which of these words to use is like fretting about whether a sweater is burgundy or maroon: to most people, you may as well just say, `dark red'.

beeble.

(I am Kita's dark red. No, wait.)

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Post #: 43

RE: How do you define submissive and slave? - 3/28/2009 12:09:08 PM

lilsubrt

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LAgirlsub,

    You hit it right on the head when you talked about the two of you communicating, as you can plainly see the definition of the two words vary Greatly. It is understood you are developing your own glossary, and that's all cool, but Mistress will need to be involved where the rubber hits the road. It's good that you understand and accept that as Crucial in a relationship, many fail there.

    Thank You for Your time and Consideration,

    Hope All Are Well,

    lilsubrt

(in reply to LAgirlsub)

Post #: 44

RE: How do you define submissive and slave? - 3/28/2009 12:18:40 PM

lilsubrt

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LAgirlsub,

    Apologies are due here, Hope The Two Of You Hit It Off and Have a Great time.

    Hope All Are Well,

    lilsubrt

(in reply to lilsubrt)

Post #: 45

RE: How do you define submissive and slave? - 3/28/2009 4:53:34 PM

LAgirlsub

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Beeble...I like dark red (smile)...although I tend to follow the name of the shade that is on my hair dye box...dark auburn.

(in reply to beeble)

Post #: 46

RE: How do you define submissive and slave? - 4/1/2009 10:51:52 AM

ownmeTPE

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Joined: 12/27/2008
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Slavery is to submission as a square is to a rectangle.
All squares are by definition rectangles, but all rectangles are not squares.
Rectangles come in countless shapes and sizes, but squares come only in different sizes.
In other words, there are countless levels of submission, but only one level of slavery: TOTAL.
Anything less is just submission.
Calling a submissive, even an extremely submissive sub, a "slave" is no different than calling a nearly equal sided rectangle a square. The label may appear appropriate or "close enough" but it is absolutely false.
"slave" is not simply a title that can be granted or established by the giver. The definition is far more rigid than that and it cannot be changed to suit the whims of Anyone, even a Dom/Domme. You can call Your rectangle a square if You like, but that doesn't make it true.

(in reply to LAgirlsub)

Post #: 47

RE: How do you define submissive and slave? - 4/2/2009 12:14:21 PM

beeble

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quote:

ownmeTPE wrote: The definition is far more rigid than that and it cannot be changed to suit the whims of Anyone

No definition in the English language is rigid. Words mean what the consensus of people use them to mean. Specifically, I think that enough people use the word `slave' much more broadly than you're making out and that it has come to acquire that meaning by consensus usage.

beebe.

_____________________________

Kita's owned slutpet.

(in reply to ownmeTPE)

Post #: 48

RE: How do you define submissive and slave? - 4/2/2009 8:16:43 PM

PeonForHer

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Joined: 9/27/2008
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the lifestyle in general

LAgirlsub,

I think I'm at a similar level of experience to yourself. At this stage I feel myself coming closer by the day to believing that there is no 'the lifestyle in general'. There's only the lifestyle of oneself and one's partner.

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(in reply to LAgirlsub)

Post #: 49

RE: How do you define submissive and slave? - 4/2/2009 9:27:18 PM

Kita

Posts: 30
Joined: 1/11/2009
From: Lincoln, NE
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

the lifestyle in general

LAgirlsub,

I think I'm at a similar level of experience to yourself. At this stage I feel myself coming closer by the day to believing that there is no 'the lifestyle in general'. There's only the lifestyle of oneself and one's partner.

This. SO this. I couldn't have said it better myself. Now get everyone else to 'get' it and we'll be golden.

-Kita-

_____________________________

~ gnothi seauton ~ beeble's Owner, Mistress, love ~ (6/15/07) ~

(in reply to PeonForHer)

Post #: 50

RE: How do you define submissive and slave? - 4/3/2009 5:51:43 AM

Vinmier

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Joined: 12/5/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama
Honestly, I think there are a number of agreed elements of each--on the other hand, I also think people deliberately ignore the agreed elements of the terms when they find it personally convenient. For example, some of the differences between the words "submissive" and "slave" are similar to the differences between "boyfriend" and "husband": both indicate an intimate and probably exclusive relationship, but one implies a much deeper commitment and a more stable bond.

This is exactly how I view it as well. I am currently in a relationship, as a live in submissive. I work a full time job, pay my share of the bills, and do most of the chores around the house to make her life much easier. Submissive suits our relationship very well. I have my limits, such as edge play, and other things I wish not to dabble in, but on the whole, I defer to her whenever she makes a decision, or wants something of me. If my label was 'slave', I don't feel as though I could voice my opinion, which I can do and have done in the past with my Lady. I 'could' label myself as a slave and strive for that romantically poetic tale of servitude. She and I both know that I like to have some time for myself, to recalibrate and hang out with the guys or whatever.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama
*shrug* In general, I would say that a "slave" is more committed to the BDSM relationship than a submissive and the term implies a deeper surrender of control and autonomy. The keystone element of the word "slave" is ownership--the slave does not belong to himself/herself, but is the possession of another, to be used as the owner sees fit.

I have to agree as well here, that I too think that a slave would be more committed to the relationship. If it comes down to it, they can still leave if they were beaten senseless daily (as an example). But to give every moment of every day, would take a ginormous amount of commitment and trust.

(in reply to ShaktiSama)

Post #: 51

RE: How do you define submissive and slave? - 4/3/2009 3:09:05 PM

ownmeTPE

Posts: 2
Joined: 12/27/2008
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quote:

No definition in the English language is rigid. Words mean what the consensus of people use them to mean. Specifically, I think that enough people use the word `slave' much more broadly than you're making out and that it has come to acquire that meaning by consensus usage.

beebe.

So beebe,
What You are saying is that if enough people mistakenly call a nearly equal sided rectangle a square, that will make it a square? This slave disagrees. While the term "slave" is widely used outside of it's true context, the literal meaning of it cannot not change. If You revisit this slaves previous post, hopefully You will see the undebatable logic in it's argument. All squares (slaves) are rectangles (submissives), but not all rectangles are squares. The difference between the two cannot be ignored simply because the words that people choose to descibe them are not used properly. Just because someone, or everyone for that matter, calls an orange an apple, that doesn't make it an apple.

(in reply to Vinmier)

Post #: 52

RE: How do you define submissive and slave? - 4/4/2009 4:24:33 PM

beeble

Posts: 799
Joined: 5/25/2005
From: UK
Status: offline

quote:

ownmeTPE wrote:
What You are saying is that if enough people mistakenly call a nearly equal sided rectangle a square, that will make it a square? This slave disagrees.

If enough people call a nearly-square a square, the word square will have changed its meaning. If you disagree, consider the fact that, once upon a time, the word `awful' meant `awe-inspiring' but, now, it means `especially bad'. Consider the fact that a `computer' used to be a person who computes but now it's an electronic device.

quote:

While the term "slave" is widely used outside of it's true context, the literal meaning of it cannot not change.

(I assume you meant to write `cannot change') But the `literal meaning' you refer to is radically different from the literal meaning that `slave' had in, say, the 18th Century.

quote:

If You revisit this slaves previous post, hopefully You will see the undebatable logic in it's argument.

Your logic is highly debatable, as evidenced by the fact that I'm debating it with you right now. Indeed, the assertion that something is `undebatable' or `irrefutable' is usually a sign that there's no logic at all: just a bald assertion.

Do you honestly believe that, even if every single person on the planet used the word `apple' to refer to an orange, that the word `apple' would somehow still mean a red/green fruit? In what sense would it mean that? If the word `apple' is somehow intrisically connected to that kind of fruit, how is it that the French call it a `pomme' and the Germans an `Apfel'?

quote:

All squares (slaves) are rectangles (submissives), but not all rectangles are squares.

I do actually agree with you on this point and the analogy is a good one. But it's a description of the most common usage today, not some fundamental property of the words.

beeble.

_____________________________

Kita's owned slutpet.

(in reply to ownmeTPE)

Post #: 53

RE: How do you define submissive and slave? - 4/4/2009 6:30:49 PM

PeonForHer

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Joined: 9/27/2008
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The word "slave" itself is used, amongst D/s aficionados, in a way that's seen as entirely improper in wider society. It doesn't bear any relation to the way it's used in any other context. Slaves haven't, historically, "chosen" to give up their rights - they've been forced to do so. Similarly, they can't take up their rights again at a later date - because they had none to start with.

I think it's fine for people to talk of wanting to be a slave in a D/s relationship - it conveys a feeling of wanting to feel 'owned' to some extent or another. In that sense, I want to be a 'slave' too. But it's utterly useless to try to assert some definition as 'the proper' definition. This is the authoritarian personality at work, yet again: people casting around for 'the lawmaker' and 'definition-provider' when none such exists. We, as individuals and as couples, are the only lawmakers in our relationships.

Say I get into a relationship in which she calls me 'slave' and I feel like one. As if I'm going to come to this forum to find out if she and I are both using that word 'slave' the 'right way'. It's complete rubbish.

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 4/4/2009 6:31:36 PM >

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Post #: 54

RE: How do you define submissive and slave? - 4/4/2009 7:48:44 PM

stella41b

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From: SW London (UK)
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I still say you need to see dental records and perhaps have the s-type have a dental check up to make sure.

Or better still ask the dominant, as they should be the ones to know whether they're in a relationship with a submissive or slave.

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(in reply to LAgirlsub)

Post #: 55

RE: How do you define submissive and slave? - 4/4/2009 7:54:55 PM

LAgirlsub

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Beeble and Peon - thanks for your views on these words. I can see that I'm not alone in my struggle with the word 'slave' for me from the beginning. Obviously it was put 'on' me and that's not how this works (which I'm glad).

And yes, it's between two people in a relationship...it's just when looking to meet people, I was hoping there was a bit more agreement on the terms...yet I think I'm there with using the word submissive. If any sexy dom is reading this, you'll have to be a very special woman for me to think in terms of ownership...(smile...try me?)

(in reply to beeble)

Post #: 56

RE: How do you define submissive and slave? - 4/4/2009 8:14:39 PM

LPslittleclip

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Joined: 9/29/2007
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well in the most basic of terms the bottom, sub, slave is based on experience and level of trust. the bottom is more of a play partner, beginning in the lifestyle and/or just starting to trust. the submissive has more experience and more trust of the partner, i am a collared submissive to my M'Lady. the slave has more experience and has a high level of trust. this is just a basic idea not a concise definition meant to cover all situations. each person and relationship will be different and so have different terms to it. as my M'Lady often says there is no one way to do things just different ways.

(in reply to LAgirlsub)

Post #: 57

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