Are you a violent domestic terrorist? (Full Version)

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variation30 -> Are you a violent domestic terrorist? (3/22/2009 12:49:05 PM)

...apparently I am.

http://www.kansascity.com/116/story/1086524.html

//COLUMBIA, Mo. | A new document meant to help Missouri law enforcement agencies identify militia members or domestic terrorists has drawn criticism for some of the warning signs mentioned.The Feb. 20 report called "The Modern Militia Movement" mentions such red flags as political bumper stickers for third-party candidates, such as U.S. Rep. Ron Paul, who ran for president last year; talk of conspiracy theories, such as the plan for a superhighway linking Canada to Mexico; and possession of subversive literature."It seems like they want to stifle political thought," said Roger Webb, president of the University of Missouri campus Libertarians. "There are a lot of third parties out there, and none of them express any violence. In fact, if you join the Libertarian Party, one of the things you sign in your membership application is that you don't support violence as a means to any ends."But state law enforcement officials said the report is being misinterpreted.Lt. John Hotz of the Missouri State Highway Patrol said the report comes from publicly available, trend data on militias. It was compiled by the Missouri Information Analysis Center, a "fusion center" in Jefferson City that combines resources from the federal Department of Homeland Security and other agencies. The center, which opened in 2005, was set up to collect local intelligence to better combat terrorism and other criminal activity, he said."All this is an educational thing," Hotz said of the report. "Troopers have been shot by members of groups, so it's our job to let law enforcement officers know what the trends are in the modern militia movement."But Tim Neal, a military veteran and delegate to last year's state GOP convention, was shocked by the report's contents."I was going down the list and thinking, 'Check, that's me,'" he said. "I'm a Ron Paul supporter, check. I talk about the North American union, check. I've got the 'America: Freedom to Fascism' video loaned out to somebody right now. So that means I'm a domestic terrorist? Because I've got a video about the Federal Reserve?"Neal, who has a Ron Paul bumper sticker on his car, said the next time he is pulled over by a police officer, he won't know whether it's because he was speeding or because of his political views."If a police officer is pulling me over with my family in the car and he sees a bumper sticker on my vehicle that has been specifically identified as one that an extremist would have in their vehicle, the guy is probably going to be pretty apprehensive and not thinking in a rational manner," Neal said. "And this guy's walking up to my vehicle with a gun."But Hotz said using factors in the report to determine whether someone could be a terrorist is not profiling. He said people who display signs or bumper stickers from third-party groups are not in danger of harassment from police."It's giving the makeup of militia members and their political beliefs," Hotz said of the report. "It's not saying that everybody who supports these candidates is involved in a militia. It's not even saying that all militias are bad."//
word on the street is that other states have similar systems.

thoughts?




Crush -> RE: Are you a violent domestic terrorist? (3/22/2009 1:18:26 PM)

*sigh*  Guess I am too....

Gonna change my sig to "Badges, we don't need no stinkin' badges..."






Termyn8or -> RE: Are you a violent domestic terrorist? (3/22/2009 1:52:49 PM)

Damn shame growing up eh ?

Land of the free ? That was just covered in the OP.

Home of the brave ?  OK define brave, 12 armed federal agents surrounding Wilhelm E Schnidt, a retired teacher I think. Bravery to kick a handcuffed suspect around, ala Rodney King ? Bravery to kick the shit out of Iraq AFTER we know they are disarmed  ?

Wonder why I do not fear death.

T




Vendaval -> RE: Are you a violent domestic terrorist? (3/22/2009 1:53:02 PM)

LEO's have been monitoring, tracking and infiltrating "subversive" groups for decades.  Nothing new here.




DomKen -> RE: Are you a violent domestic terrorist? (3/22/2009 2:02:20 PM)

Funny when it was peace and leftist organizations being labeled as dangerous and subversive I missed the outrage from the libertarians or the right wing fringe.




slvemike4u -> RE: Are you a violent domestic terrorist? (3/22/2009 2:15:02 PM)

Ain't that the truth DomKen....as I recall the response was something along the line of "your country love it or leave it"....




Termyn8or -> RE: Are you a violent domestic terrorist? (3/22/2009 2:19:20 PM)

slv, if you hadn't put that in quotes it would have probably raised my blood pressure a bit.

DK, it seems as usual, people only concern themselves with their own rights, others be dammned. That is how we got here.No solidarity.

T




variation30 -> RE: Are you a violent domestic terrorist? (3/22/2009 2:19:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Funny when it was peace and leftist organizations being labeled as dangerous and subversive I missed the outrage from the libertarians or the right wing fringe.


that's probably because you don't know much about libertarians. you might want to read a little Rothbard, you'd come off as less of a buffoon.

but then again, you probably think people like Rothbard are 'conservatives' and equate him to Rush Limbaugh.

anyhow...my state apparently started this trend: http://web.archive.org/web/20060421160851/http://www.homelandsecurity.alabama.gov/tap/anti-gov_grps.htm




Irishknight -> RE: Are you a violent domestic terrorist? (3/22/2009 2:22:44 PM)

Since I almost always get labeled as "right wing fringe" I'll respond.  This is bullshit.  Its neither surprising nor unexpected but still bullshit.  
Of course, isn't this the same state that elected a dead man to office a few years ago and then let his wife fill the spot?




variation30 -> RE: Are you a violent domestic terrorist? (3/22/2009 2:44:55 PM)

This is what I want to drive home. When one school of thought or a group of individuals is singled out as being a part of the 'fringe' and set aside from the rest of the citizenry, trouble can easily follow. I've heard the absolute fear in which some blacks have towards the cops and frankly, I don't blame them. If cops see a car full of white kids blasting rap music or a car full or black kids blasting rap music, I think we know which car is more likely to have a glock pulled on them. There is no shortage of stories of unwarranted police brutality and outright murder perpetrated against blacks because of the perceived heightened threat they pose. So you have a majority of innocents suffering (sometimes lethally) due to a small minority of black criminals. And what is more, you have a central agency with a monopoly on force perpetrating these acts...and it polices itself. Fantastic. There is a rich tradition of demonizing one group as the fringe or the font of problems for a larger body. Bad things are usually in store for that group. Ruby Ridge is an excellent example. Out of the violence some white supremacist groups perpetrated came the demonization of the white supremacist movement. Then came the mass infiltration of every white supremacist group imaginable. When they came up short on paid snitches, they went about less legal means to spy on citizens - like trying to use entrapment to coerce Randy Weaver into spying on them. Then comes the illegal surveillance and when a federal marshall gets what he has coming to him by trespassing on a family's property without a warrant and lethally discharging a weapon on that family's property, it is not the federal agency that brings the ire of the media and the majority of the populous...it is the 'crazy white supremacist' who killed a true American Hero in the line of duty. And we know what followed that - a siege and woman murdered by an FBI sniper while she held her infant. Waco is another horrible instance of a fringe minority being butchered and the butchers getting away with the crime. I know that these are just domestic cases and a similar line of criticism could be railed against the school of the americas or operation enduring freedom, but I'd like to stick to the consequences of deeming a certain group of the citizenship dissident or dangerous.

No matter how unlikely these situations may seem, if you lay the foundations for them, you might as well try to blow your head off with a shotgun. Was Ruby Ridge easily predictable? The Boston Massacre? The Romanian Revolution? We've seen what happened with things like COINTELPRO - the black bag jobs and, fuck, the assassination of Fred Hampton. I don't like seeing this shit being repeated or taken lightly.




DomKen -> RE: Are you a violent domestic terrorist? (3/22/2009 2:55:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: variation30

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Funny when it was peace and leftist organizations being labeled as dangerous and subversive I missed the outrage from the libertarians or the right wing fringe.


that's probably because you don't know much about libertarians. you might want to read a little Rothbard, you'd come off as less of a buffoon.

Rothbard? I assume you mean Murray Rothbard the Austrian school loon who thought mercenary military and judicial companies would bring utopia under anarcho-capitalism? You think who has the biggest guns sets the rules is a good idea? And you're calling me a buffoon?




variation30 -> RE: Are you a violent domestic terrorist? (3/22/2009 4:01:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Rothbard? I assume you mean Murray Rothbard the Austrian school loon who thought mercenary military and judicial companies would bring utopia under anarcho-capitalism? You think who has the biggest guns sets the rules is a good idea? And you're calling me a buffoon?


yes, I don't think you've read many of his articles or you would read about him railing against the stigmatization of any ideology. hell, the austrians were started by laissez-faire capitalist jews in austria in the early 20th century. Mises and Hayek both had to flee the Nazis. I think they are more than a little sympathetic to groups who are singled out as being 'fringe'.

perhaps you should read a little more as your understanding of anarcho-capitalism could use some refining. the idea of might equals right is not anarcho-capitalist, it is statist.

as far as merceanary militaries, there is that...or you could be a part of a militia. I find either preferable to being forced to have a standing army (what Jefferson viewed as the greatest threat to liberty) go around the world Ramboing it up at my expense - financialy and perhaps physicaly.

and I would prefer an anarchic court over what we have here. this may sound a bit contradictory to you...but that's probalby because you don't know much about merchant law (go ahead, wikipedia it, I'm not looking).




FirmhandKY -> RE: Are you a violent domestic terrorist? (3/22/2009 6:14:16 PM)


History: "hubris/tyranny/misery/revolution". Repeat.

Firm




DomKen -> RE: Are you a violent domestic terrorist? (3/22/2009 10:27:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: variation30
perhaps you should read a little more as your understanding of anarcho-capitalism could use some refining. the idea of might equals right is not anarcho-capitalist, it is statist.

You, as do all utopians, misunderstand human nature. Given the opportunity someone will always use might to gain power. Government is society's way of giving those with less power enough collective power to protect themselves. Go see how the anarchy in Somalia is working out if you don't understand that simple fact.

quote:

as far as merceanary militaries, there is that...or you could be a part of a militia. I find either preferable to being forced to have a standing army (what Jefferson viewed as the greatest threat to liberty) go around the world Ramboing it up at my expense - financialy and perhaps physicaly.

Or you could not make up lies about Jefferson. The famous "quote" about standing armies and banks is made up:
http://www.snopes.com/quotes/jefferson/banks.asp


quote:

and I would prefer an anarchic court over what we have here. this may sound a bit contradictory to you...but that's probalby because you don't know much about merchant law (go ahead, wikipedia it, I'm not looking).

You seem to be talking about Lex Mercatoria but seem to have no idea what it was or what influence it wields today.




variation30 -> RE: Are you a violent domestic terrorist? (3/22/2009 10:57:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

You, as do all utopians, misunderstand human nature.


I don't misunderstand human nature. value is subjective and individuals will go about whatever means they feel is the most likely to achieve their subjective ends. that's all there is to it.

quote:

Government is society's way of giving those with less power enough collective power to protect themselves.


...really? is that what you think?

like the blacks in the jim crow south? like the jews in germany? what a silly statement for you to make.


quote:

Go see how the anarchy in Somalia is working out if you don't understand that simple fact.


I can point to many failed states as well. what is your point?

quote:

Or you could not make up lies about Jefferson. The famous "quote" about standing armies and banks is made up:
http://www.snopes.com/quotes/jefferson/banks.asp


who said anything about Jefferson and banks? I'm talking about his call for universal service (a militia) in which the government trains the citizenry to defend itself from foreign threats (and also from domestic threats). http://etext.virginia.edu/jefferson/quotations/jeff1480.htm

quote:

You seem to be talking about Lex Mercatoria but seem to have no idea what it was or what influence it wields today.


it's an example of a system of law that does not require a coercive state to maintain itself.




DomKen -> RE: Are you a violent domestic terrorist? (3/22/2009 11:27:15 PM)

Jefferson's views on military service are simply wrong today. A combat soldier takes about 18 months of full time training to become competent. We cannot and should compel universal service of that duration nor can we rely on a non professional militia without that training.

Lex Mercatoria was enforced by government courts for most of history. The period during which it was simply a set of customs was brief and was one characterized by virtually no long distance trade. Claiming it as a model for anything is to deeply misunderstand what iot was and how it worked.

As to your belly aching about governments misdeeds I will point out that those issues were corrected by government action. I will now demand one example of a functioning anarchistic society, minimum duration 100 years, minimum population 1 million people to exclude various self selected utopias that fell apart after the founders died.




Kirata -> RE: Are you a violent domestic terrorist? (3/22/2009 11:42:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Or you could not make up lies about Jefferson. The famous "quote" about standing armies and banks is made up:
http://www.snopes.com/quotes/jefferson/banks.asp

Cheap shot. He didn't "make it up". It comes from a 1937 Congressional Committee report. It just has never been verified. What has been verified, however, is that Jefferson did say, in an 1816 letter to John Taylor, that banks were more of a threat than standing armies.   
 
And I sincerely believe, with you, that banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies; and that the principle of spending money to be paid by posterity, under the name of funding, is but swindling futurity on a large scale.
 
Why did you neglect to include that information in your post calling 30 a liar?
 
K.
 
 




Kirata -> RE: Are you a violent domestic terrorist? (3/23/2009 12:04:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Lex Mercatoria was enforced by government courts for most of history. The period during which it was simply a set of customs was brief and was one characterized by virtually no long distance trade. Claiming it as a model for anything is to deeply misunderstand what iot was and how it worked.

As I understand it, Lex Mercatoria originated in the Middle Ages and governed trade in Europe, including trans-border trade, which covers some pretty long distances. It was administered, with local variations, in special courts until toward the end of the Middle Ages when it became incorporated into national laws and the English common law. Many of it's precepts were reaffirmed in (i.e., served as a model for) the codification of international mercantile law and are with us today.
 
K.
 
 




pahunkboy -> RE: Are you a violent domestic terrorist? (3/23/2009 5:41:04 AM)

....being interested in "gold" also make one a terrorist.

Ron Paul is considering filing a lawsuit over this.   Homeland Security wrote it up and it goes out to all states who then put it on their letterhead.

Alex Jones broke the story.   2 LEOs sent him the reports.     The interview later was such a lie- incredulous.  Meanwhile vegetable gardens might become illegal.

My Ron Paul sign blew down. I have not put it back up. I don't know that I will.   

The end the fed rallies are highly monitored, including by the military. Another end the fed rally is planned for April.




pahunkboy -> RE: Are you a violent domestic terrorist? (3/23/2009 6:08:19 AM)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBHKimajZRk   a good listen  Alex on bankers, and patriots




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