RE: Failure and the Use of Safewords

Collarspace Discussion Forums

Home Login Search

RE: Failure and the Use of Safewords

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Ask a Master >> RE: Failure and the Use of Safewords

Page: << < prev 1 [2]

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: Failure and the Use of Safewords - 3/25/2009 2:39:11 PM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KokuRan
Try the "if she doesn't use the safe word when she needs it she is failing you"

Like making her feel even more insecure and more of a failure is going to help?
Hardly.

For whatever reason, she can't do this now. She probably will in a couple of years when the relationship is more solid. For the moment, since you can still get the information needed easily enough simply by asking her one simple question, do so.
Because when HK initiates the info gathering, it will be a nonissue, and that's always a good thing.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!

(in reply to KokuRan)

Profile

Post #: 21

RE: Failure and the Use of Safewords - 3/25/2009 2:53:17 PM

HeavansKeeper

Posts: 1254
Joined: 5/14/2007
Status: offline

As promised, my continued response.

atypicalsub and a few others,
The idea of shifting her perspective is already in place. It's not a huge issue, in fact, In my pet's mind, there is no problem. At least, not by her own volition. And I trust that, but I have trouble trusting an untested system. Any untested system.

Lovingpet and Andalusite,
Your responses have been extremely helpful. I see a lot of my pet in lovingpet. It has sealed my idea that, for as good as the safeword theory is, it is flawed. I'll ask for the information I want, and it will be provided. If its not being provided, then its time to stop. I've underestimated how lost in subspace a person can get. I don't pretend to understand it, but I know it's very potent.

Peppermint,
Not to pry, but I said "I know she would feel like she failed me if she used a safeword." Not "I know she would never use a safeword." I've never pushed anything I KNOW she should object to, because I'm not a bad owner. We grow with a careful pace. Perhaps slow to some, but I don't care - I feel it's the proper speed for our circumstances in life. It's not that I don't believe her. It's that there is a discrepancy which has not been cleared up. I plan to work on her understanding that asking me to stop is not a bad thing. That it is protecting my property, that it is following my command. Again, I'm not saying it's impossible for her to stop play... Just very difficult. And I'm voicing my respect for the effort it requires and a concern for the difficult task. I'm setting a good example in critical thinking, something I commend in all people.

Allthatjaz,
I didn't think I was alone in this, and I hope the good suggestions from the community help more than just me. My pet expresses herself very well. She is articulate and concise and honest and open... in writing. When given the time she needs to concentrate her thoughts, she can make me understand the finer emotions which I cannot grasp without guidance. The problem is that writing takes time. Time that is not accessible in the moment.

Steel and Fangs,
Being responsive is paramount. If a safeword is used, something went wrong. It's certainly not the end of the world, probably not even the end of the scene/play. It just means a change has to be made or issue clarified before continuing. I aim to not need that point. Day to day (year to year) we've not needed it. Our communication is quite decent, verbal and otherwise. Steel says "I use regular words..." and I think I agree. I can't promise that I'll know when she's in distress, but I'm going to get a clue 99.9% of the time. I'm just worrying about that inevitable .1%. In regards to dom space... I've never had a dominant frenzy. I've always been in control of my demands and actions, but sometimes that includes knowingly pushing her. Sometimes I ask a lot, knowing she might not be able to handle it. Those are the times I approach that .1%.

_____________________________

The Loving Owner of HisHeavan

... You've waited your whole life for this moment...

(in reply to HeavansKeeper)

Profile

Post #: 22

RE: Failure and the Use of Safewords - 3/25/2009 2:57:20 PM

HeavansKeeper

Posts: 1254
Joined: 5/14/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

quote:

ORIGINAL: KokuRan
Try the "if she doesn't use the safe word when she needs it she is failing you"

Like making her feel even more insecure and more of a failure is going to help?
Hardly.

For whatever reason, she can't do this now. She probably will in a couple of years when the relationship is more solid. For the moment, since you can still get the information needed easily enough simply by asking her one simple question, do so.
Because when HK initiates the info gathering, it will be a nonissue, and that's always a good thing.

I'm behind DesFIP on this one. When it comes to teaching (in any capacity) I'm a patient person. I put myself in the student's shoes very well (at least I think I do/try to). I've seen other dominants/teachers/trainers get frustrated because to them, the subject matter is simple. It's easy to see it as "I've told you to use the damned safeword when you need it, why can't you just do what I say?!" but to the studentpet, it only makes the issue heavier. Angrier. It's not a healthy step, even if the inspiration is for the greater good.

_____________________________

The Loving Owner of HisHeavan

... You've waited your whole life for this moment...

(in reply to DesFIP)

Profile

Post #: 23

RE: Failure and the Use of Safewords - 3/25/2009 3:23:42 PM

LeatherBentOne

Posts: 469
Joined: 9/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: atypicalsub

Using my safewords is always something of a dilema for me. My Mistress is normaly gentle but admits to a sadistic side. I know I can not take nearly as much as some she has previously scened with so I am always concerned about disappointing her by making the scene end too soon. What has helped the most is her reassuring me that she is proud of me for what I have endured for her.

Perhaps it would help to rephrase it for your sub. Maybe you can get them to look at the safe word not as protecting themself, but that it is to protect your property (them). That by failing to use the safe words appropriately they are neglecting their responsibility to safeguard your most cherished possession. After all, if the sub allows themself to become damaged then you are being deprived of the service and fun until they heal. Okay, maybe that logic sounds convoluted but from this subbie's view it helps.

Excellent suggestion.

(in reply to atypicalsub)

Profile

Post #: 24

RE: Failure and the Use of Safewords - 3/25/2009 6:26:28 PM

peppermint

Posts: 5170
Joined: 10/18/2005
From: Montana
Status: offline

quote:

Not to pry, but I said "I know she would feel like she failed me if she used a safeword." Not "I know she would never use a safeword."

Then I see no problem. She will safeword and you will praise her and tell her what a good submissive she is. She then has a choice. She can believe she is the good submissive you say she is, or she can believe you are deliberately lying to her. She knows you would never lie.....so she has GOT to believe she did a great thing.

(in reply to HeavansKeeper)

Profile

Post #: 25

RE: Failure and the Use of Safewords - 3/26/2009 11:01:01 PM

MasterRaid

Posts: 82
Joined: 8/16/2008
From: The Brink of insanity.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: HeavansKeeper

LeatherBentOne,
She doesn't really have limits. At least not formally. I am aware of what makes her lock up in fear, but she's willing to do anything I can/have conceived. Not saying we've done all those little fantasies, but she would. I always talk her through new things, and (partially because of this fear or lack of trust, but also because its simply proper care) keep a keen eye on her responses. The closer -I THINK- she would be to calling it quits, the louder she moans. She's fairly new at this lifestyle, only two years and having had only one owner, while playing online with others - but I can't help but feel she's much much... much.. more hardcore than I initially took her for. Thank you for the suggestions, though.

simpleplan2,
I don't understand the mindset either =\. I wish I did. When I used the word shortcomings, I meant it as a general phrase for when things didn't go 100% perfectly. Any issue on which improvement could be made. There's nothing wrong with shortcomings. Things rarely (if ever) go 100% according to plan. The little speed bumps can be pleasant surprises or learning opportunities. Later in this thread the word disappointment comes up, and when that is arbitrarily tacked onto natural shortcomings, that's a problem.

catize,
She reads these forums, and I hope your words shine to her.

DesFIP,
That's some good advice. I'll try that and see how it works for us.

Antipode,
I know =\. I'm a scientist at heart. I would prefer to just stress test the system to mark and correct critical failure points, if any. I'm looking for some way to test it without pushing my pet beyond her limits, potentially into emotional harm, to know. DesFIP's advice is good, if she can volunteer a scale, where 10 means "stop" and 4 means "thank you sir, may I have another?" I'll know her ability to judge and respond with signals. In another safewordy thread, I saw someone who uses "gentle" as theirs. They said it might be easier to say (less jarring) than red.

MasterRaid,
I agree with you. Its not topping from the bottom I fear. It's making sure she has the wherewithal to announce how she feels.

For time reasons, I'll get back to more of you later... Especially peppermint

I never thought she was topping from the bottom HK, I said if she is not telling you the safeword or not capable then it is up to YOU to know when enough is enough. You need to take her by the hand, walk her through and show her that safewords are good things when one of you two is concerned about going to far. It does not matter who but obviously one of you needs to communicate here. No malice meant in My words so do not take it that way.

_____________________________

First rule in dealing with the Devil............................
..................................................................DON'T!

(in reply to HeavansKeeper)

Profile

Post #: 26

RE: Failure and the Use of Safewords - 3/27/2009 6:27:57 PM

housemouseinoz

Posts: 83
Joined: 2/3/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: HeavansKeeper

My pet is dreadfully afraid of failing me. She has no reason to be, I've always been extremely accepting and patient with any of her shortcomings. It's from her life before me, and something we work hard to correct.

She has promised me, assured me, sworn to me that she will use her safeword if needed. I also know she would feel like a failure if she did use it. I've told her repeatedly how its not a bad thing at all, how its not a failure on her part (if anything, a failure on my part). I know she'd still feel like she failed, which is crazy and irrational.

In our house, we've never needed to use our safeword. I don't plan to push it until she needs to, that would be unhealthy. I just have to trust that this apparent discrepancy makes sense in her twisted slavegirl puppy mind.

It makes me uncomfortable not knowing if the emergency brakes work or not on my elevator.

Anyone else have/had a similar situation?

HeavansKeeper
Often I read your posts and can relate on many levels in the way you write about your pet, often finding myself nodding, thinking it could well be me that you are writing about

. Also being new to the lifestyle (newer than your pet), in regards to your question about her not using her safeword, I would have to put my hand up to that one as well. Sir has been concerned a couple of times and felt I should have used my safeword, He took control and ended what He was doing, then questioned me afterwards, and asked me why I refused to use my safeword, reminding me again that it is there to protect us both, and it's ok to use it. I assured Him I was ok, and that being new to the lifestyle, I am also learning and testing my own limits. He used His better judgement though, and decided that I could not endure any more. Trust is a wonderful thing and maybe sometimes dangerous, I myself trust Him with my life, the way He is able to read my body language is unbelievable, which sometimes makes me feel like He can read my mind. I know I am in good hands.

The way you write about your pet, I have always felt that there is trust between you.

_____________________________

Guide me into a brand new day
In Your eyes You know i've found my place

(in reply to HeavansKeeper)

Profile

Post #: 27

RE: Failure and the Use of Safewords - 3/27/2009 7:07:13 PM

PommeDeMonSang

Posts: 3673
Joined: 1/23/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: HeavansKeeper

My pet is dreadfully afraid of failing me. She has no reason to be, I've always been extremely accepting and patient with any of her shortcomings. It's from her life before me, and something we work hard to correct.

She has promised me, assured me, sworn to me that she will use her safeword if needed. I also know she would feel like a failure if she did use it. I've told her repeatedly how its not a bad thing at all, how its not a failure on her part (if anything, a failure on my part). I know she'd still feel like she failed, which is crazy and irrational.

In our house, we've never needed to use our safeword. I don't plan to push it until she needs to, that would be unhealthy. I just have to trust that this apparent discrepancy makes sense in her twisted slavegirl puppy mind.

It makes me uncomfortable not knowing if the emergency brakes work or not on my elevator.

Anyone else have/had a similar situation?

Sir,

i use to be like this till Master could since my need to use it and he would repeatedly state the safe word to me till i came too and realized i needed to use it. now i am slightly better at it but the best thing is that if he senses the need for it he says it to me in the form of a question till i repeat it enough for him to know that the stop/pause is needed.

blessed be,
pomme

(in reply to HeavansKeeper)

Profile

Post #: 28

RE: Failure and the Use of Safewords - 3/28/2009 3:55:36 PM

Andalusite

Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline

HeavansKeeper, Personally, I find the numbers thing very difficult - either I can't decide what number to use to describe it, or I get tempted to use silly numbers like "e," "pi, "natural log," or primes. I can keep enjoying a scene even if I can't speak clearly - safe signals are good to use in that circumstance, especially if we're new to playing together, so unsure if he can read my body language. If I get thwacked on bone, I sometimes go silent/stiff/still for a few seconds until I process it. I don't need to stop completely, just back off to light taps, or hold me for a few seconds, or something, and I'm usually good to go again!

(in reply to PommeDeMonSang)

Profile

Post #: 29

RE: Failure and the Use of Safewords - 3/28/2009 6:57:16 PM

Aly055

Posts: 34
Joined: 2/23/2009
Status: offline

I'm finding the same things sometimes. I'm new to the lifestyle and actually last night was our first really intense scence. The thing I'm not sure what my own limits are I know that if something was truly completely over the line that I would use my safeword, but sometimes I'm just not quite sure like something hurts but not enough that I'm screaming at him or something. The only time that I would have used my safe word was when we were playing with wax I was fine with it on my butt and apparently he had several drops on my breast that I didn't even feel the last one I did though; he got a scream out of me, needless to say that was the end of that, but even then the scream was more from shock than anything I hadn't felt the others plus I was blindfolded so. Anyway my dom seems to do very well reading me but I know I have a safeword and I can use it if I need to.
[/quote]

HeavansKeeper
Often I read your posts and can relate on many levels in the way you write about your pet, often finding myself nodding, thinking it could well be me that you are writing about

The way you write about your pet, I have always felt that there is trust between you.
[/quote]

(in reply to housemouseinoz)

Profile

Post #: 30

RE: Failure and the Use of Safewords - 3/28/2009 8:54:54 PM

MasterDarkSadist

Posts: 60
Joined: 6/17/2008
Status: offline

The key to this is twofold.
1. Reinforce that safewords will be (not should be, or anything else) used if she needs them.
2. Know your girl well enough for her to never need them

And if you are especially needing to make this a point (I don't use safewords with a partner that I know well), push her to a place that you know she should safeword out of.......and if she doesn't, punish her...and if she does...reward her.

You are going to have to show her that not using them when appropriate is failing you, and using them when appropriate is honoring you.

(in reply to HeavansKeeper)

Profile

Post #: 31

RE: Failure and the Use of Safewords - 3/31/2009 2:53:12 PM

softness

Posts: 2918
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: Leeds, UK
Status: offline

I am the type of person who, in the past, would rather suffer damage than suffer the "failure" of using my safeword. Usually this has not been an issue because I have been in relationships where I did not have a safeword at all. Generally speaking I do not play with someone unless I have satisfied myself that they are a skilled enough Top to be able to run the play safely. If ever I have need to say "that's not working" or "eek my shoulder has popped" or " that needs to stop" that is usually what I say, and the dynamics I have been in it has always been the Top's decision if play stops or continues. I really dislike having any degree of control in a scene, partly because selfishly I get off on the helplessness and partly because it has been ingrained into me that I *shouldn't* have any control in the scene. I don't know which came first .. I suspect it is a little chicken and egg.

Anyhow ... back to my original point, I would feel huge guilt about safewording "red", a complete stop. It would really fuck me up to end a scene like that, especially getting yanked right out of a play headspace. There is nothing wrong with me, I'm not broken, brainwashed, stupid or abused. I am an experienced bottom who has played with wide range of Tops from heavy Sadists to clueless duminants. My reluctance to safeword, and my guilt at doing so comes from the fact that I am wired to serve. For me play is another form of service, just like sexual or domestic service. I would feel about as crappy safewording, as I would saying "Do your own bloody washing up!" ... yes I would do it ... but sure as fuck would it mess with me afterwards. I didn't recognise the reason I felt guilty until I totally stepped back from any kind of Ds relationship and was only involved in SM play (with no power/authotiry exchange back ground at all) I felt no guilt whatsoever safewording with them. That was when I made the link. I felt guilty safewording because it felt like I was clawing back power and authority .. which went against everything I had been trained/had grown to believe was right for me. Now I am back in a Ds dynamic I am using that understanding to learn it is ok to use safewords and that it isn't me snatching control back from Sir, it is me helping Him to retain control by giving Him the information He needs.

makes sense to me anyhow.

_____________________________

proudly wearing the blue collar of consideration to DK Leather, Leatherdykeuk, and LeatherEagle of the UK KRueL Leather Family

veritas, respectus honorque in corio

(in reply to FangsNfeet)

Profile

Post #: 32