Beyond Consent ?

Beyond Consent ? (Full Version)

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JustStephen -> Beyond Consent ? (3/24/2009 4:21:04 PM)
This is a question about consent. An example....M says to me that she's really turned on by the thought of consensual rape...I know she's thinking along the lines of some light bondage, a bit of force, a struggle and some good sex. In my head however, I take into account her hard limits and build my version of her rape around that. If this happened my way then I am going to bundle her into a sack, throw her onto a cold wet concrete floor in a derelict building and physically/verbally and emotionally violate her. I know that all of this is well within her limits but I also know that she would hate it because its not her fantasy, its mine! This is not something I am going to discuss with her in advance because I refuse to be her puppet (topped from the bottom) and she is not going to know when it happens, so she may well not be in the mood but perhaps it is more real than her version of rape. M has told me (sick pup that she is [:D]) whilst reading this over my shoulder, that she prefers me like this to someone who would constantly worry about upsetting her or hold back from expressing themselves. Back to the question.... I know that M has consented to this, in fact she seeded the idea and our interpretation of consent is that we can do anything we want so long as it doesn't violate the hard limits. Whats your interpretation of consent?

groovychick67 -> RE: Beyond Consent ? (3/24/2009 5:37:38 PM)
I think that there are two ways to look at this question. If you are meeting someone for a scene or negotiating something at a play party then whatever they give consent to is all they should receive, no creative improvising. However in the realm of a loving, trusting relationship then I think that there is less of a need for complete consent or negotiations as long as you honor the boundaries that are already known, and maybe I am wrong but I think that by revealing my limits I am giving him permission to push me right up to that point............and maybe just a little farther. And afterall that is what safe words are for anyway.

RainydayNE -> RE: Beyond Consent ? (3/24/2009 5:42:09 PM)
i agree with groovy chick "M" gave you information, and it's now yours to figure out what to do with :)

DesFIP -> RE: Beyond Consent ? (3/24/2009 5:44:17 PM)
You can still talk to her, demand she write you an erotic story about her rape fantasy. Nothing in there is her wresting control. What that would be is intelligent, as you finding out ahead of time where the line is for her of something she can handle versus something that leaves her afraid of you for six months. Smart dominants don't break their toys.

LovingMistress45 -> RE: Beyond Consent ? (3/24/2009 9:42:28 PM)
In a relationship (not casual play) I think if it is not a hard limit then it is consensual. This takes into account that I know the person well enough to know their triggers and that if I am doing something totally new I am going to go at a pace that I can back off if need be. It also means to me that I trust the sub to safeword if it is too much.

atypicalsub -> RE: Beyond Consent ? (3/24/2009 10:31:01 PM)
My Mistress and I use the red/yellow/green when playing, but we also have 'panic' word. If I ever use that then everything would stop instantly. I feel this would be critical to have for any kind of suprise scene or mindfuck. I've told her I have rape fantasies and she has suggested with a gleam that it could happen someday. Whether that is next week or ten years from now I'll have the panic word just in case it pushes one something emotional that she wasn't aware of.

Blackwolf9 -> RE: Beyond Consent ? (3/25/2009 2:16:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: groovychick67 However in the realm of a loving, trusting relationship then I think that there is less of a need for complete consent or negotiations as long as you honor the boundaries that are already known, and maybe I am wrong but I think that by revealing my limits I am giving him permission to push me right up to that point............and maybe just a little farther. And afterall that is what safe words are for anyway. [sm=agree.gif]

RCdc -> RE: Beyond Consent ? (3/25/2009 2:27:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JustStephen Whats your interpretation of consent? In BDSM? It's one of the biggest bullshitting pretences and conventions that exists. People use it to try and make BDSM look acceptable and be accepted. It's an excuse. It is a buzz word. So my interpretation is [:'(] the.dark.

cantilena -> RE: Beyond Consent ? (3/25/2009 7:38:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JustStephen This is a question about consent. An example....M says to me that she's really turned on by the thought of consensual rape...I know she's thinking along the lines of some light bondage, a bit of force, a struggle and some good sex. In my head however, I take into account her hard limits and build my version of her rape around that. If this happened my way then I am going to bundle her into a sack, throw her onto a cold wet concrete floor in a derelict building and physically/verbally and emotionally violate her. I know that all of this is well within her limits but I also know that she would hate it because its not her fantasy, its mine! This is not something I am going to discuss with her in advance because I refuse to be her puppet (topped from the bottom) and she is not going to know when it happens, so she may well not be in the mood but perhaps it is more real than her version of rape. M has told me (sick pup that she is [:D]) whilst reading this over my shoulder, that she prefers me like this to someone who would constantly worry about upsetting her or hold back from expressing themselves. Back to the question.... I know that M has consented to this, in fact she seeded the idea and our interpretation of consent is that we can do anything we want so long as it doesn't violate the hard limits. Whats your interpretation of consent? To this scene specifically, I'd say that the relationship consent carries through regardless of how you're intending to go about it. A big caveat in my own mind, at least in my own relationship, is that safewords be strongly in place (providing 'safeword' isn't just another bullshit pretense in BDSM.) I also agree that consent in this scenario is predicated on a strong foundation of knowledge of the person's limits, reactions, and mind... in other words, a strong relationship. That's off the top of my mind, anyway.

allthatjaz -> RE: Beyond Consent ? (3/25/2009 3:46:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark quote: ORIGINAL: JustStephen Whats your interpretation of consent? In BDSM? It's one of the biggest bullshitting pretences and conventions that exists. People use it to try and make BDSM look acceptable and be accepted. It's an excuse. It is a buzz word. So my interpretation is [:'(] the.dark. Are you saying consent is bullshit? That all we do is non consensual? not sure if I agree or disagree with you. I know there is a lot "we" do that is not explicitly consensual but then if its not on the list of hard limits then its OK to do it.... hmmmm Stephen

allthatjaz -> RE: Beyond Consent ? (3/25/2009 3:51:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cantilena quote: ORIGINAL: JustStephen This is a question about consent. An example....M says to me that she's really turned on by the thought of consensual rape...I know she's thinking along the lines of some light bondage, a bit of force, a struggle and some good sex. In my head however, I take into account her hard limits and build my version of her rape around that. If this happened my way then I am going to bundle her into a sack, throw her onto a cold wet concrete floor in a derelict building and physically/verbally and emotionally violate her. I know that all of this is well within her limits but I also know that she would hate it because its not her fantasy, its mine! This is not something I am going to discuss with her in advance because I refuse to be her puppet (topped from the bottom) and she is not going to know when it happens, so she may well not be in the mood but perhaps it is more real than her version of rape. M has told me (sick pup that she is [:D]) whilst reading this over my shoulder, that she prefers me like this to someone who would constantly worry about upsetting her or hold back from expressing themselves. Back to the question.... I know that M has consented to this, in fact she seeded the idea and our interpretation of consent is that we can do anything we want so long as it doesn't violate the hard limits. Whats your interpretation of consent? To this scene specifically, I'd say that the relationship consent carries through regardless of how you're intending to go about it. A big caveat in my own mind, at least in my own relationship, is that safewords be strongly in place (providing 'safeword' isn't just another bullshit pretense in BDSM.) I also agree that consent in this scenario is predicated on a strong foundation of knowledge of the person's limits, reactions, and mind... in other words, a strong relationship. That's off the top of my mind, anyway. OK, I get that. The safe word thing is interesting, we kind of have safe words but... for some reason we have never used them. Something to do with being too strong willed to give in to each other I think. As for it being a strong relationship I wholeheartedly agree. We have one. S & M

DavanKael -> RE: Beyond Consent ? (3/25/2009 3:56:11 PM)
Cool query. Imo, it's a combination of communication as well as intricacy of knowledge of one another. Davan

DesFIP -> RE: Beyond Consent ? (3/25/2009 3:58:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: allthatjaz As for it being a strong relationship I wholeheartedly agree. We have one. S & M But is that enough? See, if she's a rape survivor and the OP's fantasy is actually damn close to a re-enactment of what happened to her, then she may well not be strong enough to handle it without setting off PTSD and suchlike. I'm in a strong relationship but I know I'm not strong enough to handle him doing this to me. I don't want him doing anything he wants if the anything is likely to set off panic attacks. Which something of this sort likely would. I also don't think it makes The Man weak willed or not a 'twue dom' if he decides that the risk is too great for him to safely have his fantasy fulfilled. One of the reasons I have so much trust in him is that he won't just do whatever he might like to when he believes it is unhealthy for those in his care, me and our blended family. It isn't just the relationship that needs to be strong enough. The individuals who make it up must be also strong enough.

allthatjaz -> RE: Beyond Consent ? (3/25/2009 4:04:36 PM)
DesFip Stephen knows my past, he knows my quirks and he also knows my life story. Stephen is the most compassionate, caring, cruel and ruthless man I have ever known. He has been the only person that could get me over a lifetime phobia from a childhood trauma and he is the man I would trust with my life. Believe us when we say that we stand strong together Maria

cantilena -> RE: Beyond Consent ? (3/25/2009 5:02:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: allthatjaz OK, I get that. The safe word thing is interesting, we kind of have safe words but... for some reason we have never used them. Something to do with being too strong willed to give in to each other I think. As for it being a strong relationship I wholeheartedly agree. We have one. S & M I've never called one, either, but we do have them, particularly emphasized for play exactly of the kind described by the OP. It has absolutely, 100% nothing to do with trust. Rather, it has everything to do with ensuring my ability to say I'm in 'real' distress when 'stop' no longer means 'stop'. In the OP's case, it's completely untried, a new kind of play, and there is a huge disparity between what the sub described as her fantasy and what the dom describes as his. Because of those things, in my own personal opinion, safewords would be the only responsible way to proceed. Not that they should not proceed. Not that consent isn't present. Only just to take reasonable precautions for all.

MistressYes -> RE: Beyond Consent ? (3/25/2009 5:27:26 PM)
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atypicalsub -> RE: Beyond Consent ? (3/25/2009 5:49:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark quote: ORIGINAL: JustStephen Whats your interpretation of consent? In BDSM? It's one of the biggest bullshitting pretences and conventions that exists. People use it to try and make BDSM look acceptable and be accepted. It's an excuse. It is a buzz word. So my interpretation is [:'(] the.dark. How can you say consent is a 'bullshitting pretence'? Do you mean that you believe everything done in bdsm is forced or coerced? I don't know about your relationship but all the bdsm relationships I do know of involve a lot of consentual actions. Speaking from my own experience my Mistress has never done anything to me that I did not consent to.

DesFIP -> RE: Beyond Consent ? (3/25/2009 6:55:32 PM)
Maria, I didn't realize the OP is your partner. I was speaking theoretically. But I stand by the fact that him deciding to fulfill your fantasy won't make him your puppet. Nor does it make you some kind of ball breaking bitch who always tops from the bottom. What it would do is give you a dream come true, and isn't that reason enough to ask you what you would most like and be loving enough to give it to you? Whether it be a fantasy come true or a Mr. Lincoln rose bush for your garden, we do things for the people we love that we know they will enjoy.

ExKat -> RE: Beyond Consent ? (3/25/2009 8:42:58 PM)
My definition of consent is that it is dubious at best. Assuming you're a good guy and a good dominant, you'll take your submissive's verbal and non-verbal communications into account and call it off if things don't feel right. You could have her consent to every activity imaginable, but, if, for example, she broke her wrist when you tossed her onto the concrete floor, then all bets are off, and she effectively withdraws her consent. I've been reading lately about the legality of consent for BDSM actions, and, to be honest, it's so shady and shifty that my whole concept of consent is skewed right now. Good luck!

allthatjaz -> RE: Beyond Consent ? (3/26/2009 3:00:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP Maria, I didn't realize the OP is your partner. I was speaking theoretically. But I stand by the fact that him deciding to fulfill your fantasy won't make him your puppet. Nor does it make you some kind of ball breaking bitch who always tops from the bottom. What it would do is give you a dream come true, and isn't that reason enough to ask you what you would most like and be loving enough to give it to you? Whether it be a fantasy come true or a Mr. Lincoln rose bush for your garden, we do things for the people we love that we know they will enjoy. Sorry DesFip I know I should of said [:) I think its all relevant to just how well we know each other. In the case of Steve and me we celebrate the fact that we can be so open. He knows that I like the thought of it feeling unconsensual at the time and he knows that although I may often scream, beg and plead with him, that afterward's when we talk about what happened I am going to have a big happy smile on my face. I think if your fantasy is very specific with lots of fine detail then they need to be done as a role playing scenario but I think if they are general then your leaving them open for interpretation, then perhaps one is doing that deliberately ? I know what you mean though and we had something like this happen to us a few months back. I always had this fantasy about Xdressing as a bloke and going out to some working mens club. Its something that I saw in 9&1/2 weeks that I thought was really hot. I had an exact image in my head of how I wanted to look but when it came to it he had other ideas. He dressed me up like some street hoody and I felt not only very unattractive but like a total idiot. I needed to do that fantasy my way and not his because it had to be so specific to work for me. Maria

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