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Do the facts ever really emerge ? - 3/25/2009 10:14:15 AM   
Termyn8or


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Started reading the other thread and it occurred to me. How can we trust any sources for anything ?

My Grampa telling me about the old days. Even if I can trust his character can I trust his judgement not to impose his bias upon those reflections ?

I have an arial photo of the area at which the toppling of Saddam's statue was staged. It shows lots of guards surrounding. Even if I trust that photo itself as being accurate, does it actually prove that it was staged ? It seems to be quite good prima facie evidence, however is it really ? Really as evidence that the event was staged, the fact that video exists is stronger evidence that it was staged than the photo I mentioned.

And which is it, if Faux news says it, it is true ? or is it false ?  If it is all false, simply watch it and believe the opposite no ? But then they would have the ability to lie by stating the truth.

So what is the standard ? Many diverse sources ? Like the media sort of voting for our creedence ? Then who can say that lone voice is not speaking the truth against the stream ? You know it wouldn't be the first time.

So what would be a reasonable standard ? US media has gone to the supreme court and won the right to lie legally. So where do we stand now ? Foreign sources ? Who's to say they are accurate and fair, or even honest ?

Alot of the argument with me here is because I buck accepted views. I am not igniorant of them usually, I just do not agree. Some guy wrote that. Someone said this. What, if anything should cause me to give more weight to the words of one over another ?

What exactly are the standards of credibility ?

T
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RE: Do the facts ever really emerge ? - 3/25/2009 10:39:43 AM   
Rule


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If there is reason to suspect foul play, investigate.

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RE: Do the facts ever really emerge ? - 3/25/2009 10:59:52 AM   
housesub4you


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No we will never know the truth, everyone lies to cover their own asses, be it something simple or as huge as AIG

The truth is out there, it's just that there is no money in reporting it

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RE: Do the facts ever really emerge ? - 3/25/2009 1:13:04 PM   
StrangerThan


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Our entire world is built upon half truths and avoiding responsibility. It is endemic, rampant, and so much a part of life that it is almost indistinguishable from the basic things life must contain.

Advertising people know that well and perception is everything. How many cars you bought that didn't have 99 somewhere near the end of the price? Ok the $300 20 year old bug you bought from your buddy, doesn't count. I'm talking dealers, new or used. How many contracts have you ever seen that were easily understandable and not full of fine print? How many jokes you made at the disclaimers at the end of the drug commercials? You know, the ones that show some man or woman walking through a field of flowers with a blissful look on their face for like 25 seconds and in the 5 seconds at the end of a 30 second spot, some auctioneer type runs through a list of may causes that sometimes include death. Really? May cause death? So might alcohol, tobacco, cleaning my pistol while it's loaded.

How many times you listened to people running for office accuse each other of unthinkable things, while defending their own stalwart upholding of your values and concerns? He voted against education and on legislation that will increase alcholism in this country.... I voted to provide better care to our veterans...  can all occur in the same vote and all be defensible depending on what your outlook is. Maybe the bill was for increasing the number of vegetables required in school lunches but also authorizing all condiments to be counted as a vegetable (I think Ketchup already is). And maybe it was a rider on something else that said soldiers injured in service to the country deserve care for their injuries along with a shot of Johnny Walker now and then. Being a scotch man, and a veteran you vote for it because the real gist of the legislation is to update VA hospitals and hire more doctors. Maybe the reason you voted for all of the above is that they were attachments to some other bill that was legislative hot water if you didn't climb on board.  

The entire system is almost rigged to give you wiggle room to be the good person in one place, but also give your opponent some amunition. I wonder how many times the political parties sit around and decide which of their people will vote this way or that way in order to keep them out of trouble. Most of the time I'd guess. Says a lot for your representative, doesn't it?

How many times you listened to someone bitch about a relationship, listened to all the bad bad bad things the other did, then happened to run across the other later and just be round-housed by the fact that they're not some grinning ogre who totes off small children, raids villages at night and eats eyeballs?  

Yeah, some facts come out. Call it Murphy's 9th law though that facts always play a backseat to what people want to believe and when they can't find supporting facts, they will do their damndest to twist reality into something that they want it to be, rather than what it is.

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--'Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform' - Mark Twain

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RE: Do the facts ever really emerge ? - 3/25/2009 1:30:48 PM   
FullCircle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
Started reading the other thread and it occurred to me. How can we trust any sources for anything ?

You have to look at their history of professionalism and if they are reporting from both sides of the argument. Do they always take one side or the other i.e. what is their political bias. I don't know about you but I tend to trust reporting that mentions all viewpoints no matter how credible.
quote:


My Grampa telling me about the old days. Even if I can trust his character can I trust his judgement not to impose his bias upon those reflections ?

It's probably not a conscious effort on his part to influence events but we all remember events in a way convenient to us except when we can admit to a particularly bad period where we could see we were wrong on reflection. Rose tinted specs are powerful things it's not often the past is remembered with accuracy. These days history can be reported in images only no words required. I used to watch Euronews it had this 'no comment' segment which simply flashed up images of stories and let you the viewer decide on what was being reported. Obviously you can say there is a kind of art in what images you are selecting to show.
quote:


I have an arial photo of the area at which the toppling of Saddam's statue was staged. It shows lots of guards surrounding. Even if I trust that photo itself as being accurate, does it actually prove that it was staged ? It seems to be quite good prima facie evidence, however is it really ? Really as evidence that the event was staged, the fact that video exists is stronger evidence that it was staged than the photo I mentioned.

If I recall these events accurately Iraqis tried to topple the statue but didn't have big enough shoes to knock it over with so the military lent a hand. Staged or not staged is irrelevant since history has shown inhabitants of an occupied region play up to the sympathies of the occupying forces for all kinds of reasons.
quote:


And which is it, if Faux news says it, it is true ? or is it false ?  If it is all false, simply watch it and believe the opposite no ? But then they would have the ability to lie by stating the truth.

This is the problem with Fox News and similar; reporting the news should be different to having an opinion on it and they forget that. All they need to do to appear unbiased is simply state the fact that some think it was staged rather than giving their opinion as to if they think that is true or not.
quote:


So what is the standard ? Many diverse sources ? Like the media sort of voting for our creedence ? Then who can say that lone voice is not speaking the truth against the stream ? You know it wouldn't be the first time.

Educational background, history of professionalism, corroboration, averaging two extremes to find the truth somewhere in between.
quote:


So what would be a reasonable standard ? US media has gone to the supreme court and won the right to lie legally. So where do we stand now ? Foreign sources ? Who's to say they are accurate and fair, or even honest ?

The way some news organisations are funded makes them particularly susceptible to bias. Watch the ad break to see who are immune from negative reporting.
quote:


Alot of the argument with me here is because I buck accepted views. I am not igniorant of them usually, I just do not agree. Some guy wrote that. Someone said this. What, if anything should cause me to give more weight to the words of one over another ?

If someone has spent their life researching a subject it shows. Sometimes it can be good to argue the opposite of what you believe because putting forward your well thought through conclusions on a subject can stagnate it with others just agreeing. If you want to know you are right argue the opposite and see if anyone shares your real views.
 

< Message edited by FullCircle -- 3/25/2009 1:33:30 PM >


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RE: Do the facts ever really emerge ? - 3/26/2009 12:25:52 PM   
pahunkboy


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Term,  my dad passed in 86.  Suppose there was a knock at the door and it was him. Suppose I had 3 hours with him to show him my life and the town.  

Would he believe it?

Now- examine the face of an Amish dude.  Really. Look into his inner being.   What do  you see?  

Now- suppose the Amish mans father who passed in 86 came for 3 hours.

Now- which son will say what during and after the 3 hour meeting?

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RE: Do the facts ever really emerge ? - 3/26/2009 12:32:55 PM   
kdsub


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The truth is what YOU think it is... The truth to you will not be the truth to another who opposes your viewpoint. OK so now others determine if it is their truth as well...and a majority forms and that truth is stronger. This is the only truth that  then counts at that particular time. Of course it may change tomorrow.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 3/26/2009 12:33:53 PM >

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RE: Do the facts ever really emerge ? - 3/26/2009 12:46:22 PM   
Vendaval


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Whoever has the gold makes the rules
Which ever side wins a war writes the history books.
There are suckers born every minute.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
What exactly are the standards of credibility ?


_____________________________

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RE: Do the facts ever really emerge ? - 3/26/2009 12:52:47 PM   
pahunkboy


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If I did not have to actually sweat- I would run off and join the Amish sect.  


Too bad- I did not before I became currupt.

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RE: Do the facts ever really emerge ? - 3/26/2009 3:36:01 PM   
Crush


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Facts emerge all the time.

The problem isn't the facts, it is in interpreting the data.  Having enough data to make a conclusion.  Having a way to vet the conclusion through other means.

The problem with "social" facts is that they will be very colored in some way, biased.  This, along with the Hawthorn Effect, makes it very hard to draw valid conclusions...just statistically "significant" ones. 

Basic Scientific Method.  To very non-biased



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RE: Do the facts ever really emerge ? - 3/26/2009 4:17:59 PM   
pahunkboy


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but there IS a difference 2009.

If John Doe tells me a lie, I can tell him HEY, you lied.   But what if Walmart/AIG/GM/Pzizer, melamine milk, leaded toys, the pets food company, the government.  if THEY tell me a lie, what is my recourse???

(and dont say get a lawyer.  That is what $200 AN HOUR)


Or lets just say- my account is wrong, how long to take to get a rep on the phone that can fix it?    (which often cant as they cant over ride THEIR computer either)

Or- now I have a bill collector phonining me every 10 minutes.  The computer is.   So how do I make it stop?   Even if I talk to the right person, they may or may not be able to stop it.  ( I pulled the phone cord- so that is my stopping it)

No one is ever resposible for anything. 

No one can fix a snafu in 5 minutes.  It is a lentthy event.  Consider that most the modern world is now this way.  They all do it- so that is how it is- get over it.

OK- so if I consider a promo for widget eztravanganza- money back gaurantee!  All the neighbors have one and my life is not complete until I also have this "service", do I bite or no?


More often then not- the 2009 me does not go for it.

I used to help my mom navigate voice menus.  Now I can even do it.

No one is ever resposible for anything

I/YOU are the crazy one. We are unable, unwilling to adapt and to be a participant like the other normal people.

After all- money back with just a phone call. 


Yeah right.




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