To stay or not to stay?

To stay or not to stay? (Full Version)

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allthatjaz -> To stay or not to stay? (3/27/2009 12:26:10 PM)
I have worked for this company for just under 2 years. It has recently become apparent to me that there are some fraudulent dealings going on and if thats not bad enough they are now trying to involve me in this underhanded crap. I have thought about putting a grievance in but I know if I do there is going to be mass panic. I have been looking out for another job but with mass unemployment going on in the UK, it doesn't seem like a safe option. I have a mortgage to pay and I need a salary to survive. Should I stay and just turn a blind eye or should I do something about it?

SteelofUtah -> RE: To stay or not to stay? (3/27/2009 12:38:12 PM)
You should. Find a New Job in your respective field First Wait for the job offer with job offer in hand walk into your company head explain why you are having a Moral issue staying with the company inform him that you are willing to stayif properly compensated, and if this practice stops and you are assured of this if they refuse turn the comapny in and take your new job if they accept send a thank you card to the other company and inform them that your current company made a more impressive offer. If the Other company offers an even better offer and is a stable company then Leave your current company and turn them in anyway. Enjoy yourself whatever you do. Steel

sappatoti -> RE: To stay or not to stay? (3/27/2009 12:42:33 PM)
I do not pretend to know anything about labor laws, especially in the UK (since I'm a US citizen) but in general I would not become party to any type of fraud. Sooner or later that fraud will be exposed and those who had any part of it, no matter how small or seemingly innocent, will be made accountable in some manner. Here's something to think about. If you are sure they are trying to get you involved in any of these dealings, think about what your role would be within them. Most likely, as the least senior member involved, you might end up as being the scape-goat when the fraud gets exposed. How would you feel in that role? Would you be able, or willing, to take the fall so that those higher up in the company are protected? Perhaps you have the option of just saying "no" to those dealings and those involved will move on to someone else. In any event, it might be wise if you kept a journal, offsite from your place of employment, as to the goings on. Whether or not you take direct part in these dealings, the fact that you think something is afoot may be enough to get you drawn into the aftermath when they're exposed would make that journal a good asset to have in your defense. It's a tough decision you'll have to make and I'm afraid that I or others may not be able to give you definitive advice. Because of the financial hardship you could find yourself in should you just leave, perhaps your best source of advice would be to consult with an attorney who has experience in these matters.

Honsoku -> RE: To stay or not to stay? (3/27/2009 12:52:08 PM)
Assuming that your ethics aren't for sale: First and foremost: keep your nose clean. Don't let them pull you into becoming a co-conspirator. 2: Do you have any way of notifying the people who are going to be burned by the fraud? If so, they deserve to know. Keep records (and preferably evidence) of who you notified, when, and with what information along with your role in the company and how it relates to the fraudulent activity(ies). This is your counter if others try to scapegoat you. 3: If you have the least bit of worry about the company becoming hostile if you notify the victim(s), cover your bases. Know where your skeletons are (if you have any) and be prepared for them to be made public. If possible, gather documentation on your role in things that might be twisted into looking like a skeleton. 4: Is this low level fraud, or is it being perpetuated with the explicit or implicit acceptance of senior management? If it is with the acceptance and/or endorsement of senior management, get out. When the fraud does come to light, everyone who was working there at the time will be tainted and you'll probably be out of a job anyway.

Vendaval -> RE: To stay or not to stay? (3/27/2009 1:02:20 PM)
You are in a very tough position. I am giving you advice here based on a worst case scenario. [&:] Cover your own ass and document everything in writing, record conversations if possible, copy all e-mails and reocords, and keep duplicate copies off site, both hard (printed) and electronic. Tell a person you trust where to find this information if you are arrested, injured or dead. Don't let anyone at work know that you are doing this. Consult a lawyer and be ready to come forward with the information once you have a new job to the proper authorities. Be prepared for your company to smear your reputation if you are let go, fired, quit, or refuse to participate in the fraud. They will do everything possible to discredit you include falsifying your employment records and claiming petty theft, etc. You are in the hard ball court here, number one rule is survival of you and your family and staying out of jail yourself.

FirmhandKY -> RE: To stay or not to stay? (3/27/2009 1:12:46 PM)
Pretty sage advice. I will say, that every day that you stay increases the possiblity of bad stuff happening to you. Depending on the severity of the possible fraud, I would even strongly consider advising immediate departure, regardless of financial costs. You will eventually get another job. You may never be able to get your reputation back, or overcome the stigma of corruption. And you'll sleep better at night. Firm

allthatjaz -> RE: To stay or not to stay? (3/27/2009 1:42:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah You should. Find a New Job in your respective field First Wait for the job offer with job offer in hand walk into your company head explain why you are having a Moral issue staying with the company inform him that you are willing to stayif properly compensated, and if this practice stops and you are assured of this if they refuse turn the comapny in and take your new job if they accept send a thank you card to the other company and inform them that your current company made a more impressive offer. If the Other company offers an even better offer and is a stable company then Leave your current company and turn them in anyway. Enjoy yourself whatever you do. Steel Good advice Steel .. thanks for that. I think the only way I'm going to get compensated here though is if I take constructive dismissal or they offer me hush money and I won't be taking the second.

Vendaval -> RE: To stay or not to stay? (3/27/2009 1:43:58 PM)
How does the system for unemployment benefits work in the UK? Would you still be able to pay the mortagage & bills and keep food on the table?

allthatjaz -> RE: To stay or not to stay? (3/27/2009 1:53:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sappatoti I do not pretend to know anything about labor laws, especially in the UK (since I'm a US citizen) but in general I would not become party to any type of fraud. Sooner or later that fraud will be exposed and those who had any part of it, no matter how small or seemingly innocent, will be made accountable in some manner. Here's something to think about. If you are sure they are trying to get you involved in any of these dealings, think about what your role would be within them. Most likely, as the least senior member involved, you might end up as being the scape-goat when the fraud gets exposed. How would you feel in that role? Would you be able, or willing, to take the fall so that those higher up in the company are protected? Perhaps you have the option of just saying "no" to those dealings and those involved will move on to someone else. In any event, it might be wise if you kept a journal, offsite from your place of employment, as to the goings on. Whether or not you take direct part in these dealings, the fact that you think something is afoot may be enough to get you drawn into the aftermath when they're exposed would make that journal a good asset to have in your defense. It's a tough decision you'll have to make and I'm afraid that I or others may not be able to give you definitive advice. Because of the financial hardship you could find yourself in should you just leave, perhaps your best source of advice would be to consult with an attorney who has experience in these matters. Thanks sappatoti They would find it very difficult to use me as the scape goat because a quick check yesterday proved to me that this has been going on for at least seven years, long before I started. I think the journal is a great idea and I am starting one tonight. Everything will be logged including names, dates and actions. I do have two jobs but the second job is not enough to sustain me unfortunately. The other job I have is with a team of attorneys and its because of this job I uncovered what the other company are up to. I have been advised that what this company are doing is serious enough to involve the Serious Fraud Squad and they have reassured me that its the big man at the top they will be going for and not his staff. In other words they have told me that apart from my reputation, I am legally safe. This aside, I have been coming home from work since Monday night with a very bitter taste in my mouth. I feel like I am caught between the devil and the deep blue sea. Thank you once again

samboct -> RE: To stay or not to stay? (3/27/2009 1:55:42 PM)
I'm sorry, but I'm going to disagree with Steel's advice. 1) Find a job in another company. It's much easier to find a job when you're employed. Consider yourself pinkslipped i.e. terminated. You don't have an option- you're just closing your eyes if you stay. 2) Do NOT stay on if they make you a better offer. Get out even if you take a pay cut. Accepting your current companies "better offer" is nearly always a stupid move. They know you want to leave, they will be grooming a replacement for you and you will get pink slipped at their convenience. People that accept their current companies "better offer" generally discover it's a bad idea in the long run. If you were worth more money- they'd have paid it to you. 3) Whistleblowers have a hard lot in life. Unless you want to switch careers or are independently wealthy, it's like falling on your sword- honorable, but extremely painful. Unless you relish the fight- think about what you want in the long run. You're not in a position to stop the fraud, you're not a cop, and you can't afford the legal expenses. Find another job- inform the customers that you think have been defrauded anonymously- and you've done what you can. Good luck! Sam (who used to be a lot more idealistic in his youth.)

allthatjaz -> RE: To stay or not to stay? (3/27/2009 1:56:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Honsoku Assuming that your ethics aren't for sale: First and foremost: keep your nose clean. Don't let them pull you into becoming a co-conspirator. 2: Do you have any way of notifying the people who are going to be burned by the fraud? If so, they deserve to know. Keep records (and preferably evidence) of who you notified, when, and with what information along with your role in the company and how it relates to the fraudulent activity(ies). This is your counter if others try to scapegoat you. 3: If you have the least bit of worry about the company becoming hostile if you notify the victim(s), cover your bases. Know where your skeletons are (if you have any) and be prepared for them to be made public. If possible, gather documentation on your role in things that might be twisted into looking like a skeleton. 4: Is this low level fraud, or is it being perpetuated with the explicit or implicit acceptance of senior management? If it is with the acceptance and/or endorsement of senior management, get out. When the fraud does come to light, everyone who was working there at the time will be tainted and you'll probably be out of a job anyway. Thanks Honsoku (great name btw [:)]) The trouble with informing the victims is, I could be breaking the data protection act. I need to be very careful on that score. It is the man at the top that is instigating these fraudulent activities.

allthatjaz -> RE: To stay or not to stay? (3/27/2009 2:04:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Vendaval You are in a very tough position. I am giving you advice here based on a worst case scenario. [&:] Cover your own ass and document everything in writing, record conversations if possible, copy all e-mails and reocords, and keep duplicate copies off site, both hard (printed) and electronic. Tell a person you trust where to find this information if you are arrested, injured or dead. Don't let anyone at work know that you are doing this. Consult a lawyer and be ready to come forward with the information once you have a new job to the proper authorities. Be prepared for your company to smear your reputation if you are let go, fired, quit, or refuse to participate in the fraud. They will do everything possible to discredit you include falsifying your employment records and claiming petty theft, etc. You are in the hard ball court here, number one rule is survival of you and your family and staying out of jail yourself. Thanks Vendaval Interestingly they have been very nervous around me since I started my second job within the legal fraternity! I recently questioned my director about an act I was clearly unhappy about and I think its he that has a fly on the wall watching me. It could be very difficult to log conversations within the work place. I am glad you reminded me about speaking to nobody at work. I was so tempted to say something to someone today but my better judgement told me to keep quiet. You just enforced how important that is.

allthatjaz -> RE: To stay or not to stay? (3/27/2009 2:05:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Vendaval How does the system for unemployment benefits work in the UK? Would you still be able to pay the mortagage & bills and keep food on the table? Unfortunately not Vendaval The system will pay or help pay your rent but will pay nothing towards a mortgage.

allthatjaz -> RE: To stay or not to stay? (3/27/2009 2:12:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: samboct I'm sorry, but I'm going to disagree with Steel's advice. 1) Find a job in another company. It's much easier to find a job when you're employed. Consider yourself pinkslipped i.e. terminated. You don't have an option- you're just closing your eyes if you stay. 2) Do NOT stay on if they make you a better offer. Get out even if you take a pay cut. Accepting your current companies "better offer" is nearly always a stupid move. They know you want to leave, they will be grooming a replacement for you and you will get pink slipped at their convenience. People that accept their current companies "better offer" generally discover it's a bad idea in the long run. If you were worth more money- they'd have paid it to you. 3) Whistleblowers have a hard lot in life. Unless you want to switch careers or are independently wealthy, it's like falling on your sword- honorable, but extremely painful. Unless you relish the fight- think about what you want in the long run. You're not in a position to stop the fraud, you're not a cop, and you can't afford the legal expenses. Find another job- inform the customers that you think have been defrauded anonymously- and you've done what you can. Good luck! Sam (who used to be a lot more idealistic in his youth.) Part of me wants the fight samboct and thats because the people that are getting screwed here are just hard working citizens. If this comes to light then this company will not only fall but will be linched by the masses. I don't want to be the hero either! I just want to get on with life in an honest way. I have thought about this continuously for a working week and I do know that I could stop the fraud if I was that way inclined. Its only a phone call away. Its also not going to cost anything because Im surrounded by Lawyers but sheesh do I really want to turn this big cart of bad apples over? or do I want to just walk out and lick my wounds? Thanks for your support

Vendaval -> RE: To stay or not to stay? (3/27/2009 3:15:20 PM)
allthatjazz, Have you ever watched the films, Silkwood or Erin Brockovich ? I think you would find both very interesting considering your circumstances.

RedMagic1 -> RE: To stay or not to stay? (3/27/2009 3:19:45 PM)
You have mail, Maria.

NorthernGent -> RE: To stay or not to stay? (3/27/2009 3:24:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: allthatjaz I have worked for this company for just under 2 years. It has recently become apparent to me that there are some fraudulent dealings going on and if thats not bad enough they are now trying to involve me in this underhanded crap. I have thought about putting a grievance in but I know if I do there is going to be mass panic. I have been looking out for another job but with mass unemployment going on in the UK, it doesn't seem like a safe option. I have a mortgage to pay and I need a salary to survive. Should I stay and just turn a blind eye or should I do something about it? I wouldn't be a have-a-go-hero, nor would I stay. Unemployment is at what?....2 million? plenty of jobs out there.

pahunkboy -> RE: To stay or not to stay? (3/27/2009 3:33:10 PM)
...I would not expose it- but I also would NOT participate in it. Stay.. put your name is elsewhere but stay put. Loose lips sink ships. I would not let my name be the fraud. Be careful with documentation as that can be subpoenaed. As to you being asked to commit it- say something to the effect- I am here to do my job description. Anything not on it- is not part of my official job duties. Dont try to be a hero. Not in 2009. It doesnt pay. As you mentioned you have your mortgage to pay. So I would get real sticky about only performing official job duties that are in your written job description.

pahunkboy -> RE: To stay or not to stay? (3/27/2009 3:36:57 PM)
Silkwood was a great movie. I wonder if she had the documents in her car that last day. Meanwhile- this vid could help you ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTW0y6kazWM

aravain -> RE: To stay or not to stay? (3/27/2009 3:44:45 PM)
most places get around the 'job description' excuse by including a portion under duties "and any other duties deemed relevant by X" where X is the supervisor. At least, that's how it is in America.

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