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The Economy and Being Politically Incorrect... - 3/29/2009 7:59:08 PM   
TreasureKY


Posts: 3032
Joined: 4/10/2007
From: Kentucky
Status: offline 		This may not be a very popular subject to bring up, however...

With so much being said these days... in the news and from the White House... about the economic crisis and tough times ahead, it's not surprising that discussion of personal financial challenges has become a bit of a mainstay in conversation.  Who hasn't had someone bring up their own difficulties or those of someone they know?

But I wonder... how often do people "clam up" or relate only similar difficulties that are otherwise only attributable to normal life setbacks, because personally they are doing just fine but don't want to sound... boorish?  It just doesn't seem like "good manners", when everyone else is complaining about hardship, to say they aren't hurting.

I know I do.  If I admit that Firm and I are financially comfortable and doing better everyday, it sounds like bragging.  It's not meant to be... we work hard for what we make and are pretty careful about what we spend.  Nevertheless, we're fortunate that what we do doesn't seem to be affected by this "crisis".  That may change tomorrow, but we're optimistic.  We can't be the only ones.

As I related in an earlier post, Firm and I just got back from Vegas last week.  There sure didn't seem to be any lack of people there spending money.  The casinos were packed at night, the hotels had huge lines of people waiting to check in, people were elbow to elbow just about everywhere, and the queues for a table in the restaurants made you feel like cattle. 

I'm not talking about the discount hotels and fast food restaurants, either.  We stayed in the Paris hotel on the strip... an average of $170 per night... and we had a forty-five minute wait to check in.  There were at least 50 people in line at that time and it was a Sunday afternoon.  Several times during the week, we noticed lines at the registration desk that were easily twice that many.

Eating out wasn't any easier.  There wasn't a single restaurant in the main hotel that didn't have a line of people waiting for a table when it was anywhere near a normal mealtime.  We waited for half an hour at one buffet... an interminable amount of time according to Firm considering it was just a buffet with hundreds of tables, and an expensive one, at that.     But we were lucky compared to a day later when we noticed at the very same place what had to be 150 waiting in a line that stretched all the way into the casino.

I do know that the unemployment rate has risen dramatically recently, and I'm not saying that there aren't some very serious economic issues that we are facing.  Those issues are having an impact on some people... I don't want to sound like I'm marginalizing their very real problems... however, could it be that things aren't nearly as bad and widespread as we're led to believe?  Are some of those people who are having the most difficulties, ones that would have difficulties just the same... people who've lived far beyond their means, or mismanaged their funds?

Are you really worse off than you were five years ago?  If not, do you admit that when the subject of the economy comes up and everyone else seems to be having a hard time?  Do you think it's possible that things aren't quite as bad as we're being led to believe, but that it's simply become "PC" to go along with the group lamenting?

< Message edited by TreasureKY -- 3/29/2009 8:18:49 PM >
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RE: The Economy and Being Politically Incorrect... - 3/29/2009 8:05:42 PM   
Vendaval


Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		A great deal depends on where someone lives and what kind of career they are in right now.  Even the normally sky high real estate prices here on the coast have gone down 1/4 to 1/3.

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So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
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RE: The Economy and Being Politically Incorrect... - 3/29/2009 8:22:27 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

Are you really worse off than you were five years ago?  If not, do you admit that when the subject of the economy comes up and everyone else seems to be having a hard time?  Do you think it's possible that things aren't quite as bad as we're being led to believe, but that it's simply become "PC" to go along with the group lamenting?



Yes to the first question.

No to the last two.

If you have any investments you know it is a tough economy with no real area that is on the upswing.

The stock market is tanking, savings interest and treasury notes are the lowest in years.

No, I don't think this is just "group lamenting".

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RE: The Economy and Being Politically Incorrect... - 3/29/2009 8:22:58 PM   
Aynne88


Posts: 3873
Joined: 8/29/2008
Status: offline 		Treasure I do think that things are absolutely as bad as portrayed, some things are just not open for a lot of analysis, like unemployment numbers, business closings, etc. I think that some places like Vegas will always be busy because it is a fairly inexpensive getaway, I mean 170.00 a night is pretty reasonable, I have been to Vegas several times, and have stayed at the Paris, buffetts are cheap, shows are cheap, you can go to Vegas for a week for a few grand, and that is from where I live, the East Coast. I think for a lot of people they are forgoing more pricey international travel or places like Manhattan where you can not get a nice room for less than 300.00 and up a night and restaurants are crazy pricey, for places with tons of deals like Vegas.  Yes, of course there are more "upscale" things to do in Vegas as well, last time I was there we spent 300 each on prime seating for Cirque's show "O".

In general though, it is a lot less pricey than many places so I can imagine people that are staying on a budget would find it far more manageable than a week in NYC or a trip abroad for a week in London without forgoing a trip altogether. Not to mention many people drawn to Vegas would perhaps fall into the category of people that live on credit anyway and enjoy gambling so it is not really a stretch to think that many of them have not learned a lot from this financial debacle anyway. Live today, pay tomorrow kind of thing.


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RE: The Economy and Being Politically Incorrect... - 3/29/2009 8:26:57 PM   
Aynne88


Posts: 3873
Joined: 8/29/2008
Status: offline 		Absolutely rule. Our main clientele are old money people, and lately they shriek when even discussing their portfolio's so no third home on the coast of Maine this summer for them.  People with heavy interest in the market are just not laying out a million so Muffy can tan on Southort Island. I'm being facetious yes, but it is absolutely a fact. 2,3,4 high end projects in a row, all "delayed."  
.


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

Are you really worse off than you were five years ago?  If not, do you admit that when the subject of the economy comes up and everyone else seems to be having a hard time?  Do you think it's possible that things aren't quite as bad as we're being led to believe, but that it's simply become "PC" to go along with the group lamenting?



Yes to the first question.

No to the last two.

If you have any investments you know it is a tough economy with no real area that is on the upswing.

The stock market is tanking, savings interest and treasury notes are the lowest in years.

No, I don't think this is just "group lamenting".



_____________________________

As long as people will shed the blood of innocent creatures there can be no peace, no liberty, no harmony between people. Slaughter and justice cannot dwell together.
—Isaac Bashevis Singer, writer and Nobel laureate (1902–1991)



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RE: The Economy and Being Politically Incorrect... - 3/29/2009 8:33:57 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		Count your blessings.I know I do.It could all end in a heartbeat.Life literally hangs on a thread.

No one is above personal disaster,no matter what their status is.

No one should be so cock sure about anything,even their own salvation.

And having some class in the midst of hard times is nothing new or unique.Though for some,it`s a challenge.

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RE: The Economy and Being Politically Incorrect... - 3/29/2009 8:36:33 PM   
aravain


Posts: 1211
Joined: 8/26/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY
Are some of those people who are having the most difficulties, ones that would have difficulties just the same... people who've lived far beyond their means, or mismanaged their funds?


Some? Certainly. All? Not nearly. The Scary Thing (tm) about this situation is that it's affecting a lot of people who *WEREN'T* mismanaging their funds, or who HAD in their past but had learned better and were trying to fix what they'd done to themselves! It really *is* happening to people who have been doing their best and who, through no fault of their own, suddenly don't have any income, enough in their savings to live off of for very long, and they're either ridiculously overqualified (this is the problem I've personally seen the most often), or nowhere needs them that can feasibly pay a livable wage... so they're delegated to 2 or 3 jobs in food-service getting minimum wage, working 60 hours or more in a week, and *still* not able to make ends meet.

The problem isn't that people are 'living outside of their means' anywhere near as much as... they were living *in* their means, and suddenly their 'means' is much lower than it was before, and getting to a place where it will be similar is far off (if not unattainable). If they bought a house recently with the help of a loan from a bank, and/or a car, those don't just go away because they're not able to keep up with their current loan rates... and even if they can there's utilities to think about, as well as food and if they have any family members (especially if they were the 'breadwinner' before)... it makes it pretty difficult.

It's these people that are feeling it the hardest. The people who WEREN'T living outside of their means, but who no longer *have* that means for whatever reason.


quote:


Are you really worse off than you were five years ago?  If not, do you admit that when the subject of the economy comes up and everyone else seems to be having a hard time?  Do you think it's possible that things aren't quite as bad as we're being led to believe, but that it's simply become "PC" to go along with the group lamenting?


Me personally? Not really. I'm jobless, but that's ok because even when I had a job I was pulling in less than 10k a year. I'm a student, first, a worker second by my family's reckoning. My brother, on the other hand switched to part-time student status... now he's a worker first, a student second... and he's making "enough" right now, but still looking for another job that will pay more, AND also be amenable to him continuing classes (preferably on campus so that he can continue to take a class or two each semester *for free*). My family? Not really. My father recently got a rather huge job promotion (after multiple pay increases over the past 5 years), my mother took a pay cut to move to a less stressful position within the same college because we could afford it. We're doing 'ok' but if either my mother or my father were made redundant and unable to find work after three months or so, we would have serious problems as a family. The likelihood of that happening for either is (knock on wood) relatively close to zero, both for being made redundant, or for not finding work quickly. It's another one of the reasons my mother took a different position.

So no, we're not doing worse than we were five years ago. We're doing quite better... but we're still not doing 'well,' we're still pinching pennies because we have to, etc. etc. etc.

Part of the glory of it is that we still function as a family unit. My mom, dad, brother and I pool our resources together. If I make money, it's "mine" but it's also "the family's" in a more abstract thing... and to be honest, it's probably saved us at least twice in the past year (as in my mother wouldn't be able to get to work, kind of issues without my brother's and my income once, to give you a clue, which would have caused her to be fired since her position at the time required her to be there pretty much *every* week day). Even so, if I want something, an I have the money to buy it, I do/can (usually very few questions asked, though my mom does see my bank statements). If I want something and don't personally have the money, and can make a convincing argument for having it, my mother will usually help supliment.

This is offset by the fact that my brother and I... don't ask for much. We don't need much... why not save up to pay more toward the student loans that are gaining interest, or for the car payments, or for emergency repairs, etc?

Despite all this... YES I do see that it IS as bad as we're led to believe. I don't go along with it because it's politically correct, I do because I have friends whose families really *are* in trouble, not because they have done *anything* wrong, but because (for instance) their father, who was the breadwinner while his wife stayed at home with the children, was laid off, and had been working at the same place for almost 20 years... but had no advancement. It was a basic factory job, that he was making enough off of to support a family with three kids... and now nowhere will hire him because he has no job skills (the skills needed for his old job were highly specialized)! Of course, SHE'S not been working since they were married, over 20 years ago... and she can't get hired anywhere, either. They haven't been living out of their means, no credit charges... just the mortage on their house they took out to be able to afford their second (used) car for their two teenagers to fight and squabble over because the last one finally died.

Do I admit my family's better off? I admit that we're lucky... and that I hope we stay that way. Most people do the same. I have yet to come across anyone who got angry at me (probably because I put it that way). Then again, the only people I talk to about it in such depth are either online (and hence relatively anonymous) or very, very close friends.

ETA: Uh, sorry for, y'know, spewing on the topic >.> I started writing then kinda lost myself in it.


< Message edited by aravain -- 3/29/2009 8:48:30 PM >

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RE: The Economy and Being Politically Incorrect... - 3/29/2009 8:39:14 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		       It's rough right now, Treasure.  We just returned from a few days in Lost Wages ourselves, and I saw what you described.  That's the getaway for those who aren't hurting as bad as others. 

     I am taking every opportunity though to mention the really awful hotel we stayed at.  The Imperial Palace is a run-down hole.  Snotty attitudes from the cocktail waitresses, broken beds, sudden blasts of cold water in the shower, a shitty buffet.  We were paying $32 a night, and it was too much.

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That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: The Economy and Being Politically Incorrect... - 3/29/2009 9:57:53 PM   
awmslave


Posts: 599
Joined: 3/31/2006
Status: offline 		It is hard for many people to accept just facts. If we look at the current state of economy there are  statistical data and there are personal stories that can be chosen to illustrate any possible point.  I saw in TV episode where the news "giants" were discussing health care and one of them asked: how many people do you really know who can not get health care? Obviously these people do not know many if anybody. Does it tell you the problem does not exist?
So, to whom  "things aren't quite as bad as we're being led to believe, but that it's simply become "PC" to go along with the group lamenting?" 


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RE: The Economy and Being Politically Incorrect... - 3/29/2009 10:33:51 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		~FR~

Well I just finished doing a job at a rural facility where many of the employees were making $300 to $400 a week gross. After the new tax update to their software, their FIT dropped about $20 to $40 from what it was before. That kind of money put back in their pocket will be spent, which will fuel the economy from the consumer sector. Several asked me about my annual, and I told them. Then I also showed them how much I paid out in taxes based upon the new tables. Some walked away thinking I was bragging, but not many. I also told them that I did not paying a tad more in taxes, but things were lean in my home though too. While my home may be more expensive than most of theirs, it is still a living expense that I committed to make. Most understood that, and very few seemed to have the class warfare attitude.

Hell the owner brought me in to help the company be more effecient on the operations side, so he can continue to turn a profit and stay in business. Otherwise his other option is to sale the property, and all equipment and just retire. That would put 80 to 100 out of work in a small rural community. I think very, very few of his employees have a problem with the owner making what he does.

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RE: The Economy and Being Politically Incorrect... - 3/29/2009 10:36:38 PM   
Vendaval


Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		When the economy tanks hotels and airlines start cutting rates and domestic locations do better than foreign ones.  Plus you have tour operators rounding up senior citizens and other groups at lowered rates to attract customers.

_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE


http://KinkMeet.co.uk

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RE: The Economy and Being Politically Incorrect... - 3/29/2009 11:20:32 PM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline 		Personally i'm glad the two of you are doing well. All power to you.

Even in the deepest of recessions not every single person gets screwed. Some are able to take advantage (not meant to be a value judgement) of hard times......cheaper luxury items are wonderful if you can afford the cost. Doesn't mean that some aren't suffering though. Doesn't even necessarily mean the majority aren't suffering.

However your post reminded me of something i read somewhere else......

http://www.socialcritic.net/declining-wealth/

From the article....
"One thing that has emerged recently, and is poised to be a growing trend for those with money, is the pretence of being poor. Where these people once dominated social conversations skiting about how much their shares were worth, it is now the “in thing” to talk about how much they have lost in these troubled times."
 

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RE: The Economy and Being Politically Incorrect... - 3/29/2009 11:41:19 PM   
TheUtopian


Posts: 259
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

This may not be a very popular subject to bring up, however...

With so much being said these days... in the news and from the White House... about the economic crisis and tough times ahead, it's not surprising that discussion of personal financial challenges has become a bit of a mainstay in conversation.  Who hasn't had someone bring up their own difficulties or those of someone they know?

But I wonder... how often do people "clam up" or relate only similar difficulties that are otherwise only attributable to normal life setbacks, because personally they are doing just fine but don't want to sound... boorish?  It just doesn't seem like "good manners", when everyone else is complaining about hardship, to say they aren't hurting.

I know I do.  If I admit that Firm and I are financially comfortable and doing better everyday, it sounds like bragging.  It's not meant to be... we work hard for what we make and are pretty careful about what we spend.  Nevertheless, we're fortunate that what we do doesn't seem to be affected by this "crisis".  That may change tomorrow, but we're optimistic.  We can't be the only ones.

As I related in an earlier post, Firm and I just got back from Vegas last week.  There sure didn't seem to be any lack of people there spending money.  The casinos were packed at night, the hotels had huge lines of people waiting to check in, people were elbow to elbow just about everywhere, and the queues for a table in the restaurants made you feel like cattle. 

I'm not talking about the discount hotels and fast food restaurants, either.  We stayed in the Paris hotel on the strip... an average of $170 per night... and we had a forty-five minute wait to check in.  There were at least 50 people in line at that time and it was a Sunday afternoon.  Several times during the week, we noticed lines at the registration desk that were easily twice that many.

Eating out wasn't any easier.  There wasn't a single restaurant in the main hotel that didn't have a line of people waiting for a table when it was anywhere near a normal mealtime.  We waited for half an hour at one buffet... an interminable amount of time according to Firm considering it was just a buffet with hundreds of tables, and an expensive one, at that.     But we were lucky compared to a day later when we noticed at the very same place what had to be 150 waiting in a line that stretched all the way into the casino.

I do know that the unemployment rate has risen dramatically recently, and I'm not saying that there aren't some very serious economic issues that we are facing.  Those issues are having an impact on some people... I don't want to sound like I'm marginalizing their very real problems... however, could it be that things aren't nearly as bad and widespread as we're led to believe?  Are some of those people who are having the most difficulties, ones that would have difficulties just the same... people who've lived far beyond their means, or mismanaged their funds?

Are you really worse off than you were five years ago?  If not, do you admit that when the subject of the economy comes up and everyone else seems to be having a hard time?  Do you think it's possible that things aren't quite as bad as we're being led to believe, but that it's simply become "PC" to go along with the group lamenting?


Heh...Not to sound too overly simplistic - But its spring break here for most of the west coast....and believe it or not, Vegas is prolly far cheaper than going to Disneyland, Knotts Berry Farm, or Great America, for that matter.

Your boy Firm there is no dummy...Vegas needs to be analyzed far differently than having someone from the Southeast travel out there for spring break only to say '' Wow! Lots of folks here.... We're waiting in line....folks are spending lots of cash! --- American's can't be hurting too bad can they!? '' 

Look at the real-estate market out there : Whether it be on paper or actual out-of-pocket losses....multiple folks portfolio's are looking mighty thin right now if they signed on as a leveraged speculator in Vegas. Hell...I just spoke to a guy the other day that purchased a 325k tract home out there for less than 180k. The decrease in median home value and change in unemployment numbers tells a more representative story than a bunch of folks standing in line.

Solely because of an over-abundance of easy credit, I think most folks have accumulated a lot more ''stuff'' these days that lets them ''hold-out'' longer because they can de-leverage and liquidate a lot of it....However, once the de-leveraging period is over, you may see an actual change.

I dunno....A look from the perimeter is often very deceiving... I'd say there's a lot more folks three paychecks away from tent city than most actually realize.






- R



PS - As far as the bragging goes....Think about it - If you don't have anything to brag about, you're not gonna like it when someone else brags  

And If you and firm are knocking em' out back in Ken-Tuck, you guys get a low-five slap down from me....

< Message edited by TheUtopian -- 3/29/2009 11:57:46 PM >

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RE: The Economy and Being Politically Incorrect... - 3/30/2009 12:47:00 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		I'm on a veteran's pension so I'm not affected by the economy.
I go to Reno or Tahoe when I go to Nevada, much less crowds and lines and it's prettier and cheaper too, I was out in Oct last and spent 5 days at Circus Circus @ $78 per night..
And I do a minimum of gambling,they don't keep the lights on by paying winners. If you understood the math you wouldn't gamble at all!
I play blackjack, sports betting and keno. Roulette and craps have the worst odds.


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RE: The Economy and Being Politically Incorrect... - 3/30/2009 4:16:58 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		Aside from a tax issue that has nothing at all to do with the recession, this household is doing fine. Yet, the reality is that really could change tomorrow. No job is without some risk, unless you are a nurse perhaps. Even then your retirement and benifits may be affected.

One thing I do know about Vegas, what you saw is not the reality. They are hurting. Go back, drive around the residential areas, see the tent cities and entire neighbourhoods of empty, foreclosed houses, the long lines at the soup kitchens.

My former brother-in-law was just there 3 weeks ago and was shocked speechless (damned near impossible) when trying to describe it. They used to live there, his wife was actually born there. The neighbourhood they lived in before moving back to Iowa is a combination of empty houses less than 10 years old and people living in tents, out the back of their Escalades and other expensive vehicles. He was just blown away.

I think Iowa has suffered much less than many parts of the country. Our property values had not shot up like other areas and have not tanked like other areas, though there are much better deals to be had than a year ago. It isn't impossible to find a good job, just more difficult. And there have been layoffs with many larger manufacturing companies.

I just wanted to add....while the body count in Vegas was high, they are not doing great. Previously mentioned brother in law, works for the largest company that invents, designs and sells gambling machines, in the country. The sales to the large casinos have tanked. Compared to several years ago, they are literally giving stuff away to keep the bodies coming. Those bodies are not spending like they did several years ago.

< Message edited by LaTigresse -- 3/30/2009 4:31:49 AM >

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Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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