We're Going To The Zoo - Or Are We?

We're Going To The Zoo - Or Are We? (Full Version)

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MissMorrigan -> We're Going To The Zoo - Or Are We? (3/30/2009 7:59:07 AM)
I'm not sure quite what to say about this, or even if I am able to voice the disgust I feel at the continued exploitation of animals for our entertainment. At first I thought it was a prelude to April Fools Day, which is tomorrow and it was leaked a day sooner, but upon searching the net there are people's accounts of previous vacations to Buenas Aires and pictures of themselves at that zoo having up close and personal hands-on meetings with these beautiful animals. In the year 2009 it seems we've learned very little. Here's the link: A Good Sport

vincent63 -> RE: We're Going To The Zoo - Or Are We? (3/30/2009 8:59:17 AM)
why am i having a flashack to that famous duo who did the wild animal act in vegas for all those yrs,,,damm, what were their names?

kittinSol -> RE: We're Going To The Zoo - Or Are We? (3/30/2009 9:11:25 AM)
There was a report on NPR the other week about the conditions of zoos throughout the world. The reporter went down to a secluded area of a zoo in Beijing, I think, and she recorded the howling of the tigers that were caged in cages barely big enough for the length of their bodies (they couldn't even turn around). Ever heard a tiger cry? It's heartbreaking. In fact, it's the first time that a radio program has made me sob my eyes out [&o]...

aravain -> RE: We're Going To The Zoo - Or Are We? (3/30/2009 9:15:32 AM)
Sigfried and Roy.

subtee -> RE: We're Going To The Zoo - Or Are We? (3/30/2009 9:17:40 AM)
~FR The last time I went to a circus they featured a tiger limping badly--they still made him or her jump through a flaming circle. I left in tears. Yes, my heart was bleeding.[:(]

MissMorrigan -> RE: We're Going To The Zoo - Or Are We? (3/30/2009 9:21:20 AM)
I wish I could say that I hadn't, but I'd be lying, Kit. I think it's also in that part of the world where they keep bears upright in cages they can't move around in so that people can tap into the bile duct for inclusion in chinese medications, the bears will also be without a paw or two - these medications still make their way to the west despite the debunking of actual medicinal properties - it seems we just can't get through superstitious tradition. I can no longer watch such programmes, I find them soul destroying. While I'm not usually a violent person, I once had a job offer to train/work with a well known animal charity hands-on and I couldn't do it. Animal protection officers have my utmost admiration but the laws regarding even domesticated animal abuse needs revising and harsher sentencing.

kdsub -> RE: We're Going To The Zoo - Or Are We? (3/30/2009 9:33:58 AM)
I don't think it was ever quite that bad here in the states but when I was a boy we used to go to the zoo and ride the elephants. Bear wrestling and kangaroo boxing exhibitions would come through now and then. And it was always fun to take a new friend to the zoo and watch the gorillas throw crap at them. Not so long ago they used to bring tigers and bears to kindergarten so the kids could up close and personal...Oh the good old days. I'm afraid as long as it pays they will do it. Butch

kittinSol -> RE: We're Going To The Zoo - Or Are We? (3/30/2009 9:43:12 AM)
Marseille zoo, the seventies... I've never gotten over it: limping black panthers who lost a limb or two when they were hunted down. Caged lions with their fur eaten by vermin. A giraffe, alone on concrete ground, with nothing to graze.

MissMorrigan -> RE: We're Going To The Zoo - Or Are We? (3/30/2009 9:51:57 AM)
I grew up doing similar things too, Kd. I grew up in South East London and around the corner from Peckham Rye Park where the circus would come to town and pitch. I used to love going to the circus and when I was a child I used to cherish the moments when I was able to feed an elephant or even ride on it. I was enamoured with the circus and even though it would start at a certain time I would hang around hoping for a glimpe/talking to the workers there. I got to hang around with a boy called 'Zack', we became friends and travelling the circus was a way of life for him. On the last Sunday of the circus Zack and I said tearful goodbyes and I went home saddened that I wouldn't see him until the next time the circus came to town. I was sitting in my bedroom and saw my special pocketknife I treasured. I wanted him to have it. I raced back to the circus to his family's trailer, past the animal crates - I was a typically naive girl. I grew up that day and have never visited a circus since. I rounded the corner of a trailer and saw not one, but two of the handlers beating the shit out of a sad animal that had a moment's stubbornness at returning to its crate. As it cowered and yowled in pain everything special about Peckham Rye Park and the circus evaporated. As for the money aspect, I would much rather pay double to see the skill and expertise displayed by Cirque de Soleil.

kdsub -> RE: We're Going To The Zoo - Or Are We? (3/30/2009 9:54:47 AM)
The St Louis zoo, thank heaven, does a great job of providing habitat and best of all is free admission. Zoos are important for a variety of reasons beyond the public exhibition and need to be supported both privately and publicly. I hope you are not down on all zoos for the actions of a few. Butch

MissMorrigan -> RE: We're Going To The Zoo - Or Are We? (3/30/2009 10:13:59 AM)
There are some excellent facilities that provide as close to an animal's natural habitat as possible, work at promoting sustainability and who also support extensive rare breeding programmes to up the numbers of endangered species and reintroduce them back into the wild. Who could argue with such extensive conservation work?

hizgeorgiapeach -> RE: We're Going To The Zoo - Or Are We? (3/30/2009 10:26:59 AM)
The OKC Zoo, not far from me, is actually pretty damn good about it's care of the animals in it's charge. The admission prices are used to help create and maintain habitats, breeding programs for endangered species, educational programs for the various schools in the metro area, conservation efforts, etc. We're also one of the most sucessful endangered species breeding programs around as part of the OKC Zoo's conservation and preservation effort. I spent a couple of summers during my youth working out there as a volunteer. It's changed a lot since I was a kid - every year the habitats get more expansive and closer to natural, and that started while I was a teen.

calamitysandra -> RE: We're Going To The Zoo - Or Are We? (3/30/2009 11:38:00 AM)
Burgers Zoo in Arnheim (Netherlands) does a good job, too.

Vendaval -> RE: We're Going To The Zoo - Or Are We? (3/30/2009 12:01:55 PM)
Well, that's a special kind of stupid. sigh There are vast differences on the quality of care in zoos and other places that keep wild animals in captivity. I will support the ones who have adequate habitat and treat the animals well, contribute to conservation and education. The ones that do not need to have their animals removed and taken to a reserve, rescue or rehabilitation center. Never been a fan of the circus experience, exploitative to the animal and human performers both. Certain practices at rodeos fall into the same category. IMO. There is an amazing local charity run by a lady who is herself disabled. It is a ranch where many of the animals have been rescued from abusive situations and disabled persons can interact with them, learning to ride on horseback and so forth. Visiting there is very inspirational.

MasterG2kTR -> RE: We're Going To The Zoo - Or Are We? (3/30/2009 6:44:53 PM)
Regardless of how cool this may seem, sooner or later it is going to be "nature's" way of weeding out the stupid, becuase one of the more viscious ones (like the lions, tigers, etc.) will get freaked out by something and make a snack out of someone.

StrangerThan -> RE: We're Going To The Zoo - Or Are We? (3/30/2009 8:03:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterG2kTR Regardless of how cool this may seem, sooner or later it is going to be "nature's" way of weeding out the stupid, becuase one of the more viscious ones (like the lions, tigers, etc.) will get freaked out by something and make a snack out of someone. The problem with that scenario is that we'll come along and put the animal down because "it" is a danger. The true dangers are those who would use a "maneater" in such a fashion and the retards who would climb aboard it thinking it would be a great ride. Face it, people making the money can't make it unless mommy or daddy either climbs aboard themselves, or puts special little one on top and... blink, pays for the chance to watch a limb, torso or head be devoured and never once consider what it is they're actually doing. Sometimes I think dominant folk need to do community service and spend a Saturday here and there flogging idiocy out of the population. There is a shitload of baiting back and forth between conservative and liberal minded folks out there but both are culpable in breeding stupidity back into the gene pool. One side does it with their right to life, life is sacred nonsense. The other does it with their candle light vigils, social programs and by hand-holding every friggin idiot in existence well into adulthood and sometimes, all the way through life. By the way I didn't use the word retard as a reference to nor as a putdown for those who have learning disabilities nor those who were born with limited mental capabilities. I used it in reference those who spent their childhood learning to be that way, taught by parents who have no business bringing life into the world, much less teaching it anything. .

Termyn8or -> RE: We're Going To The Zoo - Or Are We? (3/30/2009 9:36:48 PM)
fr No zoos for me, it is the most depressing concept in my mind. Look, if you want to see the animals, go to where the animals are and look. People do it you know. It matters not how well you duplicate their habitat, you have no right to take them out of it except for defensive purposes. I wish I knew the title to the old Twilight Zone episode where our spacship crash landed and Marcisson said they might be people just like us. The inhabitants of the planet put his comrade in a zoo, as confortable as it was, the last words were "Marcisson was right, they are people just like us". What gives us the right ? We did not set this biosphere in motion nor can we stop it. How dare we interfere with it's delicate, or actually not so delicate mechanism ? I love wildlife so much that I prefer to leave it where it belongs. I will also never ever have a pet animal. Now a human pet on the other hand............... that is a decision, a choice, a mutual agreement. You cannot have that with an animal. Can anyone even grasp that concept ? T

MissMorrigan -> RE: We're Going To The Zoo - Or Are We? (3/30/2009 10:06:58 PM)
In the aid of conservation, especially of endangered species, some zoos (wildlife 'parks') have become a necessary evil or we'd see numerous species we have all grown up with via way of documentaries, books etc... become wiped out through man's greed and, in some cases, their own survival. The latter of which I cannot condemn for they, too, are victims of circumstance especially of indigenous tribes who hunt them as a way of life. I agree with your sentiment that wildlife ought to be kept where it is - in the wild, it's a nice sentiment but not always a practical one especially when the aim is to preserve a species. I can't agree with the concept though of identifying thousands of years of domestication as with dogs, cats and horses, with non-domesticated animals. I don't have to justify keeping my cats to anyone, the two I have now are almost seventeen years of age and both were rescued from the most horrendous situation of neglect and abuse. Both deserved an opportunity of life and a good quality of one, they each have it and neither would likely survive if turned out into the 'wild' to fend for themselves - one doesn't have any teeth at all, the other has problems eating due to a fractured jaw sustained when just a couple of weeks old. As for the old chestnut of natural selection, neglect and abuse is what it is and there's nothing natural about it.

Termyn8or -> RE: We're Going To The Zoo - Or Are We? (3/31/2009 8:09:36 AM)
I was not really trying to imply that there is anything morally wrong with keeping domesticated pets. The fact is I think it is but I did not want to say it. But the blame does not belong to the current pet owner, it belongs to those who domesticated the species in the first place. After the multiple generations most could not survive in the wild. Actually I almost had a dog. And a cat also. However how this came about is a bit different. See we have a strrong neighborhood here, and I frequently do not lock my door, nor have I ever locked a car door, in fact in the summer I'll leave the windows open because it seems that someone upstairs just does not want me to have a car with working AC. The mutt just walked in my front door. I don't think he belonged to the previous owner or anything because I had been here at least ten years at the time. I guess the place was not quite to his liking because he left after a short time. If he had stayed it would be fine with me because it would've been by choice. I would've just started feeding him, I would never go get a leash and license. That's not me. My almost cat showed up one day sleeping on the passenger seat of my car. I started the car thinking he was going to bolt immediately, but he didn't. So I pet him a bit and we are on our way. Seems to me this one just wanted a ride somewhere. It seemed as if he picked the spot to jump out at a red light. Oh well. I have had and have many friends with pets. The best trained pets were always the ones with the most freedom, like Tech, he could just open the door and leave, and frequently did, but he always came back. My other buddy had a Rhodesian Ridgeback that was confined or in the house most of the day, but was let loose every night, basically after the streets were dark and there were no kids or little old Ladies for him to knock over. Neither one of these dogs were the least bit agressive, but because of their size could knock someone down without meaning to. Hell Tech even went to rock concerts, and he was turned loose. Tech was a big frisbee fan, and he'd make the rounds at the concert and come back with a different frisbee. Tech was the most amazing dog I had ever seen and I must admit that my buddy was an expert at training him. No leash, I mean ever. In that case I think Tech got more out of life then if he were out in the wild, and he was part wolf. I could write a book about Tech, as I was there and spent alot of time helping to train him, physically and mentally. But the fact always remained that he was free to leave anytime he wanted, actually there wasn't much they could do about it. He literally ate ever leash they ever had, and the only ass whippin he got ever was because he ate half of a brand new couch. Seriously. He was pissed because someone locked the door and left him alone just a bit too long. So in a way, the freedom that we all think we deserve should be extended to every living thing. However there are cases when humans can offer such a good life to an animal that I would have to say that's OK then. But I can't do it, I have to lock my door sometimes, things are not like they once were. And add to that the fact that when Tech was young we spent ALOT of time with him, as everybody cut school all the time. This place was our hangout. He was always around people and really liked people, everybody. He wanted to be there, and to me, that is the major difference. I can't offer such a rich life, so I don't keep animals. Same with fish, that fish is supposed to be able to swim until he is plumb tuckered out, not until he hits a piece of glass within a few feet. Don't even get me started on birds.Even lizards, if you have roaches, by all means find a lizard, but you have to cut him loose. After while you will have a well fed lizard and no Orkin bill to pay. He should stick around as long as the food holds out. Farm dogs are just about never on a leash, they could just go. Most of them have never seen the inside of the farmhouse. They get some training to keep the herd in line, and they get fed. It is more of a relationship than a pet/owner thing. It is different. Interesting that I find it so hard to express my position on this issue that I had to resort to the anecdotal method of expressing it. But then I guess that's why they keep me around here. Let's just say that I am differenter than anyone else you are likely to ever meet. But don't get me wrong, I do not cast a jaundiced eye on pet owners. My friend has this really beautiful German Sheperd, and I can see where he is screwing up training her. I won't let them in the door unless he takes the leash off. She just turned one year old, and if you need a leash inside the house you are FAILING. The dog wants to please you, ususally the dog does not understand what you want. The way they leash train dogs like on TV and all that is plain wrong. That limits the dog's potential, and to me that is a crime. The best dogs, the most well adjusted/seem to be happy dogs were raised more like a part of the family. I live in the city and these days, you just can't do that. Therefore I will not keep animals, any kind. People USE dogs for home protection and such, keeping them in the basement and feeding them gunpowder, shit like that. It is abhorrent to me. While I firmly believe that Man has domain over the animal kingdom, those priveledges should be used sparingly. These ctreatures were not meant to be home security or entertainment. I think if you take away the animal's freedom you should have something pretty damn good to offer in return. Now compare that to a zoo, and you see why I have no intent to ever go to the zoo. T

cjan -> RE: We're Going To The Zoo - Or Are We? (3/31/2009 8:32:03 AM)
Yes, all zoos are not the same. Some have gone to great expense and lengths to create as "natural" and spacious environments for their wild captives. Nevertheless, they remain creatures of the wild in captivity. It always saddens me. Whether it is Shamu or her clones at Sea World or dolphin "encounters" , zoos or circuses, it disturbs and saddens me that wild creatures are held in captivity for our amusement. I'll never forget how once, as a teen working at a circus that had come to town, I witnessed a behind the scenes incident. It was winter in Chicago and one of the bear trainers was beating a bear about the face and head with a length of rubber hose. He was trying to rouse the bear from his natural sleepy tendency that time of year so that the bear would be alert enough to perform. I haven't been to a circus since. Of course, then their is the clown issue....

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