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Posting for Agreement! or Not! - 1/27/2006 4:28:15 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline 		It is not an uncommon situation that we see discussions via Online or F2F that individuals are seeking to express opinions to get agreement and validation. It is not uncommon to see that when our opinions are rejected that a person becomes defensive in their behaviors and the interactions suffer as a result.

However, it is also common to have some really good exchange of thougths and opinions with others. These exchanges can be very rewarding even when the exchanges are individuals that are on oppositie sides of a particular view point. The exchanges can be constructive to those involved.

It is my view point that we all on occassion will be involved in these two basic situations. Obviously, we all attempt to stay with a more constructive interaction with others, but to say we are always successful would be less than honest!


I quote from Character Strengths and Virtues written by Peterson & Seligman

"Open-mindedness is the willingness to search actively for evidence against one's favored beliefs, plans or goals, and to weight such evidence fairly when it is available. Its opposite has been called the myside bias, which refers to the pervasive tendency to think in ways that favor one's current views...."


It is my basic view that open-mindedness is a very critical character strength in moving oneself beyond their own current understanding of things and allows for better discussions and interactions with others.


So some questions... How do we become more open-minded to allow ourselves to have more constructive dialogues? What is it we need to do to stay into constructive dialogues and discussions with others? What techniques and skills are useful to us? What are some of the behaviors that we need to avoid that pull us into the destructive discussions? And any other quesitons you think are imporatn and whose answers could add value to the discussion.





_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.
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RE: Posting for Agreement! or Not! - 1/27/2006 4:33:35 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
So some questions... How do we become more open-minded to allow ourselves to have more constructive dialogues?

I knew it. As soon as I saw the topic I thought "Another Knight thought question"

First: Recognize the areas we already are and are NOT open minded about

Next: Recognize the areas we already are and are NOT secure about

Then: Accept that others will NOT share your views and that you will NOT share theirs. Love yourself for your superiority and forgive them for their foibles (but only in your head, if you actually say that to them, they get pissy)

Finally: Try try and try some more to realize that an issue will only matter to YOU. To everyone else it's just an interesting thought exercise that provides entertainment and hopefully some exercising of the organ that everyone claims is most important for good sex- the brain.

quote:

What are some of the behaviors that we need to avoid that pull us into the destructive discussions?

Frankly, any strong negative emotion. Once you FEEL something about a topic, that should be an immediate "red flag" for yourself that this is obviously a insecure or not open minded issue for you. That doesn't mean you have to go away (although more people should who don't) but it means you need to force yourself to react NON emotionally. Remember, this is just a fun thought exercise for everyone else.

Not that this will really change anything...

_____________________________

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"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

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RE: Posting for Agreement! or Not! - 1/27/2006 4:47:08 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Not that this will really change anything...


It does for me... you have a often caused me to reconsider things from what you post.... and on occassion I have changed my thinking as result.... With changed thinkings... so has my actions changed!

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

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RE: Posting for Agreement! or Not! - 1/27/2006 4:49:46 PM   
IrishMist


Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline
Same here LA, I truly hate when KoM posts a question...but inevitably I am unable to pass it by. I so hate using my brain

quote:

How do we become more open-minded to allow ourselves to have more constructive dialogues?

Hmm, well, since I have been known to be close-minded about some things...and yet very opinionated about them ( what can I say, I love a good argument, even if I know I am wrong )...I guess one way would be to try and not only understand but also accept that EVERYONE is different. Even if they agree with you, they are still different. Their beliefs and opinions do not come from the same experiences; understanding and accepting that would go a long way to opening the lines of communication.

quote:

What is it we need to do to stay into constructive dialogues and discussions with others?

Use the same from above while at the same time understand that when someone disagrees, it is not a PERSONAL attack against you or your beliefs.

quote:

What techniques and skills are useful to us?

Well, even though I am not always successful...listening to what another has to say is useful...and accepting that their opinion is valid based on their own experiences.

quote:

What are some of the behaviors that we need to avoid that pull us into the destructive discussions?

Anger when someone disagrees with you. It's not personal, you should not take it as so. When you make it personal, you become defensive and aggressive.

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RE: Posting for Agreement! or Not! - 1/27/2006 4:53:47 PM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

It is not uncommon to see that when our opinions are rejected that a person becomes defensive in their behaviors and the interactions suffer as a result.


Hmmmmmm, you seem to be speaking rather clinically here, so let me see if I understand you correctly.


"A" says, "I believe monogamy is the truest form of love."

"B" says, "I'm not so sure."

"A" says, "Ahhhhhhhh Fuck you, WHAT DO YOU KNOW!!!!!!!!!!"

B: "I know alot fucking more than you!!"

A: "Bullshit!!"

B: "I got your 'bullshit' DANGLING...."

POP!!!!!!!! ---- "A" COLD COLDCOCKS "B"

B: gathers himself, and smashes Bottle over "A's" head.

Bystanders intervene......

Cops are are called....

A: "He started it!!!!"

B: "No he started it"

A: "Don't believe him, he's a lying scumbag!!"

B: "Don't mind him, he was cross-bred with a farm sheep."

-----------

Is this what you mean by "interactions suffer?" If so, I can't say I agree with you at all, not one bit. DO YOU UNDERSTAND ME. I THINK YOU ARE WRONG, OUT OF LINE, WAY OFF BASE, RUDE, INSUFFERABLE, INCONSIDERATE, SELF CENTERED, TYRANICAL, and narcisistic even.....

I mean how could you possibly think anyone from the human race, especially here in God's country, America --- the USA, might have "suffering" interactions? I've never seen it. We all get along great. Why, why the hell do you always have to stir the DAMN POT!!!!

Can't you just leave us alone.

We had peace and harmony before you came along!!!


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RE: Posting for Agreement! or Not! - 1/27/2006 4:56:58 PM   
kyraofMists


Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist


Same here LA, I truly hate when KoM posts a question...but inevitably I am unable to pass it by. I so hate using my brain



LOL Welcome to my daily life. He loves these questions, lucky for me I get great pleasure out of intellectual exercises. You should hear the questions he asks after you have attended a lifestyle event. *grins* They can go on for hours and it is just his way of gaining as many different perspectives as possible on an idea or situation.

kyra


_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

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RE: Posting for Agreement! or Not! - 1/27/2006 5:20:06 PM   
IrishMist


Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline 		LMAO...Kyra, I truly do envy you and Alandra....

....sometimes



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RE: Posting for Agreement! or Not! - 1/27/2006 5:26:08 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		KoM, thank you for posting this question and even more importantly, IMO, your comments. I must disagree with LA here in that good discussions do change things even if those changes are not always noticeable at the time.

I find that posting views and thoughts act in a similar way as a face to face open discussion with a group of people except that with the physical security the net provides and the delayed response time, some people are more comfortable in responding more openly and can take time to consider their responses. It also of course allows those who are uncomfortable in public speaking to respond too. I like using the boards as a sounding board even with my responses. Some time s it is pleasant to have validation but rarely necessary unless I have posed a question and need alternative concepts etc. Mostly I post what I believe or what is true for me at that time. (We’ll ignore my tongue in cheek comments/humour for the moment). Sometimes my beliefs are somewhat radical and even controversial which can and has wound some folks up to a point I have little doubt they may at the time, with to remove me from the planet. However I am never closed minded…. I work on a principle that I’ll probably challenge people to disagree with my views. Am I open to change? In core issues of faith, loyalties and honour, no, not on your nelly. These are the things I’ll die for. On most other things? Hell yes. I take most of life with a grain of salt with the realization that we are all part of some huge chess game and I do love trying to throw spanners in the works of them that want to manipulate all of us mere humans. (I’ve already a presidential suite booked in hell for me ~ Hell for the company and heaven for the climate). If you can show me better ways of doing something or looking at things, it is likely that you will receive my thanks and I’ll test the waters to see if the new concepts feel ok for me. That is how I learn and grow, even at my age.. Not just as kingsters of all sorts and alternative people, we need p[laces like CM to stop getting stale. It matters not how many people you see in your local scene, I’ll bet a goose’s fart to a clap of thunder, you are unlikely to have so many diverse ideas and thoughts presented to you face to face.


_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

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RE: Posting for Agreement! or Not! - 1/27/2006 5:56:42 PM   
RosesInChains


Posts: 6
Joined: 3/20/2005
Status: offline 		Change, whether in one's own self or in others only occurs when those in question are willing to allow change to happen.

How do I address what you have put forth? I try to keep my own mind open to new experience, within the reason of the arbitrary contructs I have assembled. My willingness to keep an open mind comes from my direct experiences within the lifestyle. When I first started out knife play was a hard limit. My reasoning is that in an altered state of conciousness I may seriously hurt the person wielding the knife. However, my willingness to expand my horizons has led me to a type of play I love being on the receiving end and doing myself.

As for change in others....I try to find those who are open in mind and in their actions. This can be a difficult and frustrating search but one that pays back rather nicely. Why? Because it leads to not just some very open and honest discussions but also new experiences. Those in turn will often lead to meeting others and the cycle begins anew.

Although it is helpful to know what it is that one wants to take from these exchanges, it is not necessary in order to come across some value in the exchange. The more we get to know our own selves, the more value we can receive and offer.

What should be avoided? Becoming defensive when talk on the subject matter starts to turn from what we accept as being the truth as we know it. On the reverse side it is important to walk gently when exploring such matters with others so that you do not come across as being above the other or a better person. That is not to say that there are not ultimate truths but we must realise that only gentle education will bring about the change needed, if that person is open to change. Attacking one's character over a disagreement of philosophical matters does little to further your own cause.

Hmmmm......did I manage to answer anything in all of that?

I have rabbited on long enough,
Rose

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RE: Posting for Agreement! or Not! - 1/27/2006 6:04:34 PM   
BlkTallFullfig


Posts: 5585
Joined: 6/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

LuckyAlbatross
Frankly, any strong negative emotion. Once you FEEL something about a topic, that should be an immediate "red flag" for yourself that this is obviously a insecure or not open minded issue for you
I agree with everything you said, but want to comment on this part...
I would never deny that I have insecurities, but in my 39years of existence, the people I've met who have such an open mind they have no boundaries, are called insane. I know that a lot of what I think/want are outside of boundaries of normalcy, I try to live within the ones which make sense for my life and my family.

Let us take monogamy: Is it the best way to love and be loved? I don't know, but it is the one with which I am comfortable, and what fits with my family and offspring. Can I afford to move away from my family with or without my offspring to try out poly? Physically I can, emotionally/psychologically, no thanks! I am absolutely fine with not knowing how everything feels. I do hope though that I have never expressed disapproval for the people with the balls to make choices I am not able to make.
There are social issues (justice related usually) I feel very strongly about, and for which crossing accepted boundaries are a must for me, but those are far more important to me than who's sleeping with whom and where..
quote:

KnightofMists
It is not an uncommon situation that we see discussions via Online or F2F that individuals are seeking to express opinions to get agreement and validation. It is not uncommon to see that when our opinions are rejected that a person becomes defensive in their behaviors and the interactions suffer as a result.

However, it is also common to have some really good exchange of thougths and opinions with others. These exchanges can be very rewarding even when the exchanges are individuals that are on oppositie sides of a particular view point. The exchanges can be constructive to those involved.
Of course it is important to be open minded, and this is a good way to get us to think about that with which we are uncomfortable, but it is equally important to disagree without being disagreeable.
A decent appearing person may want to present another side of the equation currently not being considered by saying, I believe it is this way because..., vs a disagreeable person (who might even appear like an asshole in his/her approach) saying your view is completely wrong and unfounded, because this is the problem and the reasons, not what you said. How does one reply to the second example? In hindsight, calmly say this is what I said and why I believe it; before hindsight, it comes out as "are you saying I made up this shit? Who do you think you are insinuating I lied about something scientists discussed and wrote about over a hundred years ago? LMAO

Communication styles become important, and being an intellectual does not excuse one from human decency standards icluding the need to be respectful if one hopes to be respected. I do close my mind when I lose respect for someone as a human being, but I don't think that'll comes as news to anyone who knows me or has watched me on these boards.
And that is my $.02 . M

_____________________________

a.k.a. SexyBossyBBW
""Touching was, and still is, and will always be, the true revolution" Nikki Giovanni

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RE: Posting for Agreement! or Not! - 1/27/2006 6:57:58 PM   
truesub4u


Posts: 2949
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


Hmmmmmm, you seem to be speaking rather clinically here, so let me see if I understand you correctly.


"A" says, "I believe monogamy is the truest form of love."

"B" says, "I'm not so sure."

"A" says, "Ahhhhhhhh Fuck you, WHAT DO YOU KNOW!!!!!!!!!!"

B: "I know alot fucking more than you!!"

A: "Bullshit!!"

B: "I got your 'bullshit' DANGLING...."

POP!!!!!!!! ---- "A" COLD COLDCOCKS "B"

B: gathers himself, and smashes Bottle over "A's" head.

Bystanders intervene......

Cops are are called....

A: "He started it!!!!"

B: "No he started it"

A: "Don't believe him, he's a lying scumbag!!"

B: "Don't mind him, he was cross-bred with a farm sheep."

-----------

Is this what you mean by "interactions suffer?" If so, I can't say I agree with you at all, not one bit. DO YOU UNDERSTAND ME. I THINK YOU ARE WRONG, OUT OF LINE, WAY OFF BASE, RUDE, INSUFFERABLE, INCONSIDERATE, SELF CENTERED, TYRANICAL, and narcisistic even.....

I mean how could you possibly think anyone from the human race, especially here in God's country, America --- the USA, might have "suffering" interactions? I've never seen it. We all get along great. Why, why the hell do you always have to stir the DAMN POT!!!!

Can't you just leave us alone.

We had peace and harmony before you came along!!!






ROFLMAO........ ok.. that's it.. I can't take it no more...

grabs another bottle of 1800

(in reply to cloudboy)
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RE: Posting for Agreement! or Not! - 1/27/2006 7:55:43 PM   
veronicaofML


Posts: 1317
Joined: 11/19/2005
From: from iowa..now in wisconsin
Status: offline
So some questions... How do we become more open-minded to allow ourselves to have more constructive dialogues
------------

what's this we shit?

unless Ya got a mouse in Yer pocket and -or You are speakin frenchy...they aint no we if'n Ya is pointin at me.
don't include me on this.
i dont WANNA be open minded.
i like being the old coot that i am.
i'm too old to change my ways and i aint startin now.
nu uh solly cholly no tuna today.
========


_____________________________

drugs sex and rock n roll,...drugs are good and so is the rock n roll, sex is over rated"
=============
"go straight to hell, do not pass go and do not collect $200"



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RE: Posting for Agreement! or Not! - 1/27/2006 8:18:25 PM   
yourMissTress


Posts: 1665
Joined: 6/14/2005
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline
quote:

How do we become more open-minded to allow ourselves to have more constructive dialogues?What is it we need to do to stay into constructive dialogues and discussions with others? What techniques and skills are useful to us? What are some of the behaviors that we need to avoid that pull us into the destructive discussions? And any other quesitons you think are imporatn and whose answers could add value to the discussion.



An open mind stems from objectivity. The more objective one can be, the more openminded. Discussion or an open exchange of ideas can be a constructive experience for all involved providing that they can maintain personal distance from the topic at hand. When one participant in the discussion takes a personal or subjective stand on an issue, or becomes emotionally attached, their ability to remain openmided becomes hindered. Often times the person with an emotional attachment to the topic of discussion feels as though they are being attacked or judged, at this point all hope of objectivity and openmindedness is most probably lost.

In some instances the voice that is speaking is what keeps us from listening or giving any credit or validity to the point of view being expressed. Immediatly closing off our minds because of personal opinions regardless of how or why those opinions were formed. An individuals personality or demeanor can keep another from honestly listening with out judging the statements and or facts being presented on their own merit. I personally have difficulty in taking anyone seriously if they have extremely poor grammar or on a message board such as this, egregious spelling errors. Giving the ideas themselves some form of anonymity can help the listener or reader to form an unbiased opinion.

Many people have the tendency to see another's point of view in a personal manner. Equating disagreement as judgment or criticism is not productive or conducive to a free flowing exchange of ideas and thoughts. If each participant can keep in mind that every individual has his/her own set of circumstances and experiences as well as his/her own belief system which has brought them to the conclusions, ideas and opinions they currently hold, possibly they will be better equiped to maintain some distance and objectivity.

There are those of us who voice opinions for the sake of adding to the conversation, throwing in their two cents for others to read and consider. There are some who want to change the way that others think by giving their opinions. There are many that are threatened by people that don't think as they do. Finding yourself in a conversation with someone whose goal is not to share with you their thoughts but to change yours, exiting the conversation is the only solution, arguing and or debating with them puts both participants in defensive postions where emotions will run too high to let anything else through.

Thank you KoM for another thought provoking post. I do believe that this discussion will change something, if only in myself, that to me is the most important.

_____________________________

Tress


"If you have to tell people that you are a lady, you are not." My Grandmother


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RE: Posting for Agreement! or Not! - 1/27/2006 8:42:40 PM   
alandraofMists


Posts: 187
Joined: 8/4/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists


You should hear the questions he asks after you have attended a lifestyle event. *grins* They can go on for hours and it is just his way of gaining as many different perspectives as possible on an idea or situation.

kyra




sis, you mean that it isn't a continuation of the play. *grins* i thought it was a multi-person interrogation scene. *groans* now that that idea gotten out, i shudder to see what will happen after then next lifestyle event. *eg*

Knight's alandra


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RE: Posting for Agreement! or Not! - 1/27/2006 8:44:36 PM   
michaelGA


Posts: 1194
Status: offline
quote:

"A" says, "I believe monogamy is the truest form of love."

"B" says, "I'm not so sure."

"A" says, "Ahhhhhhhh Fuck you, WHAT DO YOU KNOW!!!!!!!!!!"

B: "I know alot fucking more than you!!"

A: "Bullshit!!"

B: "I got your 'bullshit' DANGLING...."

POP!!!!!!!! ---- "A" COLD COLDCOCKS "B"

B: gathers himself, and smashes Bottle over "A's" head.

Bystanders intervene......

Cops are are called....

A: "He started it!!!!"

B: "No he started it"

A: "Don't believe him, he's a lying scumbag!!"

B: "Don't mind him, he was cross-bred with a farm sheep."


sounds like some of the things i've had to endure on alot of these forums...LOL

"And the winner is....NOBODY"

LOL

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RE: Posting for Agreement! or Not! - 1/27/2006 8:53:24 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		If the winner is Nobody, then we are all winners..... and losers

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

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RE: Posting for Agreement! or Not! - 1/27/2006 9:00:13 PM   
wetsub000


Posts: 91
Joined: 3/6/2005
Status: offline 		KoM, speaking for myself I think I do all three. I enjoy reading the posts here on CM because many of the regular posters seem to have something to say beyond the trite and trivial. I read posts and mentally nod agreement, I read posts and dismiss the posters as nutcases, but the best enjoyment is when someone lucidly puts a point of view or argument that I've not heard before, so I can analyse and reflect on it to whatever extent I can.

How to be open minded? I have no idea, I suspect it's a combination of temperament and life experience. I know coming into the lifestyle has made me more open, living overseas has made me more open, but I think I've always been fairly open minded and yet I still sometimes love playing devil's advocate just to try and rock some people in their smug boats. If on the other hand I am trying to have a sane and rational conversation with others with a differing point of view I try to keep it unemotional, and bring in third party evidence rather than talk of personal experience. I also try and confirm their beliefs with a 'I understand (what you are saying) but have you considered ... ' type statement so they don't feel as attacked.

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RE: Posting for Agreement! or Not! - 1/27/2006 9:11:39 PM   
BlkTallFullfig


Posts: 5585
Joined: 6/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

How do we become more open-minded to allow ourselves to have more constructive dialogues?
For me, I simply read and learn. If it sounds like something I'd like to incorporate in my life, I read more, talk about it, learn it, and begin the process of incorporating at least in thought; if doesn't sound like something which fits within my boundaries for a relatively sane life, I simply consider another bit of info.
quote:

What is it we need to do to stay into constructive dialogues and discussions with others?
Try to keep an open my mind: indeed try and understand the other's point of view without taking it personally... Of course I generally stay away from discussions which I feel don't pertain to me at all, and when I post, it is usually personal.
quote:

What is it we need to do to stay into constructive dialogues and discussions with others? What techniques and skills are useful to us?
Stating just the facts as we know them; accepting each person's experience and thought as his own, and in no way a reflection on me.

quote:

What are some of the behaviors that we need to avoid that pull us into the destructive discussions? And any other quesitons you think are imporatn and whose answers could add value to the discussion.
1) Avoid responding to every thread
2) Be respectul and considerate when responding 3) Avoid excessive preaching to adults who generally know/should know better 4)Disagree, but avoid being a jerk 5) Try and avoid hypocrisy by actually acknowledging yours (generic yours) might not be the only answer. M

_____________________________

a.k.a. SexyBossyBBW
""Touching was, and still is, and will always be, the true revolution" Nikki Giovanni

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RE: Posting for Agreement! or Not! - 1/27/2006 9:37:30 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

So some questions... How do we become more open-minded to allow ourselves to have more constructive dialogues? What is it we need to do to stay into constructive dialogues and discussions with others? What techniques and skills are useful to us? What are some of the behaviors that we need to avoid that pull us into the destructive discussions? And any other quesitons you think are imporatn and whose answers could add value to the discussion.


If a post upsets you, breath then read it again. Perhaps you've missed a key phrase or word that changes the context for you. Continue breathing and read it out loud. Try to determine what it was about the post which upset you. Was it the tone you've inferred, was it because you believe the post has bashed or flamed something which is important to you? Is it a rant and someone is obviously just having a bad day? Once you determine the cause of your discomfiture, decide if it's worth a response. Are you just going to feel better if you rant, too or do you have a genuine contribution to make? How will your perspective help further the discussion? Has someone else already expressed what you are feeling or the point you wish to make? Will redundancy drive the point home in such a way as to be viewed as constructive rather than destructive? Breath and read the post one more time before you respond to it. After you respond, read what you've written out loud before sending. Does the post you're making convey what you wish or is it inflammatory or boorish? If it doesn't convey what you desire, delete and start the process over until you are responding to the 'facts' of the post and not to the poster.

If you agree with a post, then disregard all of the above. You don't need a time out. :)

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


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RE: Posting for Agreement! or Not! - 1/27/2006 9:40:14 PM   
michaelGA


Posts: 1194
Status: offline 		i think i've been on a 10 year time-out...when can i have a time-in?

LOL

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