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RE: Torn About Fluid Transfer - 4/3/2009 5:33:14 PM   
Andalusite


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I don't think it's a learned behaviour, necessarily, some people are a bit phobic of germs, especially that type.

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RE: Torn About Fluid Transfer - 4/3/2009 6:08:35 PM   
kiwisub12


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So  ....   where do you think the phobia comes from?

and can you be a "bit" phobic, or is it like being pregnant?

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RE: Torn About Fluid Transfer - 4/3/2009 6:47:19 PM   
HollywoodExecDom


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First, everything involves risk. Sky diving, boxing, football, gynastics, you name it, it involves risk of either death or some sort of permanent bodily harm - torn MCLs, long term arthritis, head trauma, etc.

Its ridiculous to think sex shouldn't involve risk as well.

The major difference is that in the case of football, driving, or boxing, there isn't a massive religious right to spend inordinate amounts of time and money making you fear those activities - because they weren't deemed sinful, perhaps because none of them were invented yet.

That said, there is variable risk to different sexual activities - much of which has has been systematically misrepresentated as of greater risk than it really is.

For example, you hear the "condom failure rate" statistic and usually its cited as "condoms are 90% effective." But at what? Usually the 90% effective refers the effectiveness of condoms in preventing pregnancy given "typical use" meaning the study polls people who identify themselves as condom users and then figure out how often they have unplanned pregnancies. But this is highly misleading... as it includes incidents when condoms weren't used.

So called "perfect use" tops out at 98%, and is when condoms are used everytime, but this can still include data sets that involve miss aplication of the condom such that an air bubble causes it to break or the condom slips off, the sexual partners use the condom beyond its recommended lifespan, the sex partners use lubricants that degrade the condom, a less reliable brand of condom is used, an old condom is used, the sex partners don't check the condom either before or afterwards for potential leaks, etc. etc. etc. (And this is not a per incidence number, this is a yearly number! So 98% of heterosexual couples who use condoms perfectly everytime during a year will suffer unplanned pregnancy - and Americans have sex is between 125 - 150 times a year )

Still, the best of the best success rate for condoms is 1% on a per incidence basis - though dick size versus condom specifications, use of certain lubricants, care used in storing condoms, and a billion other things can bring that number all the way down to nearly zero.

Why I point this out, is that condoms are tremendously effective in preventing disease and pregnancy when properly used and this is the sort of systematic distortions regarding safe sex that conservative groups put out there.

Fact is, if you are using condoms, as a hetrosexual male, you have almost no chance of catching HIV from vaginal sex in the US.

Here's the numeric breakdown:

Percent of US population with HIV: 0.7% (Varies by region, with Washington, DC topping out at 3%)

Rough percent of US HIV cases in the heterosexual community: 33% (erring high as this is technically the percent of NEW incidents attributed to the heterosexual community as a whole - note this stat doesn't break down what sex activity they acquired HIV from - i.e. anal sex, vaginal sex, vaginal sex on someone's period etc.)

Percent of HIV cases that involve females: 25% per year - meaning that incidence among women is about 1/3 what is for men.

Now for the shocker:

Transmission rate per incidence between an early stage HIV female and non-HIV male taking part in unprotected vaginal sex: 2%. (Note: HIV viral load is greatest during the initial months - so even this is massively erring high as most US HIV users 1) insist on safe sex 2) don't sleep around 3) are on medicines that keep their viral load close to zero) Don't believe the number: http://www.aidsmap.com/en/news/DC64824C-3739-44D5-9F25-A823E319C2D0.asp

Finally, condom breakage rate: 1% (I'll cite a pretty right in the middle number, even though, as I said, the competancy of a user can significantly effect the efficacy of a condom)

Doing the math then - likelihood of contracting HIV from heterosexual, vaginal sex with a condom:

1/100 people have HIV, 1/50 chance of contracting HIV from someone HIV positive by taking part in unprotected vaginal sex, 1/100 chance of condom breakage, 1/3 incidence of HIV among heterosexual women ...

So crunching data you have a 1 in 1.5 million chance of contracting HIV per incidence of vaginal sex with a condom assuming you absolutely randomly select a woman from the US population - which is a hell of an assumption. If through sex selection, you opt for young, less promiscuous, educated women without a history of injection drugs, and who receive regular doctor exams, chances are getting into the 1 in 10 million range.

So factually, if your fear is HIV - as long as you use condoms - you have a better chance of winning some lotteries.

But the broader point is UNDERSTAND THE RISKS! Its ridiculous the level of fear some people have of HIV and yet they still drive a car - when the number of fatal car crashes exceeds the number of new HIV infections a year: 39,252 fatal crashes to 37,367 new HIV infections nationwide in 2005.

HIV only becomes a public health concern when you realize that Americans have sex 142 times a year! Have vaginal sex 142 times, without a condom, in Washington DC, and your chance of contracting HIV in a year becomes 1 in 34!!!

Now that said...

Other STDs have higher transmission rates and higher incidence in the US, HepC being one to be concerned about.

If you're a woman, given the incidence of HPV, you absolutely should have the HPV vaccine. I can't stress this enough.


< Message edited by HollywoodExecDom -- 4/3/2009 6:55:52 PM >

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RE: Torn About Fluid Transfer - 4/3/2009 6:56:04 PM   
DesFIP


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kiwisub12

So  ....   where do you think the phobia comes from?

and can you be a "bit" phobic, or is it like being pregnant?


One of the classic signs of OCD is germ phobia. Washing your hands several times.

And yes, I would think phobias could come on a spectrum. I can look at a garter snake from a distance and know it isn't dangerous. But I can't sit down next to one.

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RE: Torn About Fluid Transfer - 4/4/2009 12:08:04 AM   
HeavansKeeper


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I'd like to clarify a few things.

I'm not petrified (turned to stone) at the thought of STDs. While my fear may be irrational, it's not debilitating. I do function in the real world. Also, the idea of casual play and sharing is not of emergency importance. I'm trying to find where I stand on the issue for when it becomes a factor. Additionally, I'm not foaming at the mouth trying to stifle my sex-crazed Mr. Hyde. I'm a pretty normal guy, trying to decide where he stands on the double edged issue of many/multiple partners. Lastly, I'm aware someone can be promiscuous for years, come out clean, and the end result is a body as clean as a nun's.

If my aversion is a learned behavior, I learned it in the subconscious. All my life, I've prized reason above emotion. A nightmare of mine is losing my hold on reality, but that's another show.

That said, Kiwi is right. Worrying is counterproductive, I'm considering what it could be a smokescreen for. I can think of a few things, but that doesn't disqualify the need to figure this out.

Right now, I'm considering how much I want to ante, and wondering if the jackpot is worth it right now.

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RE: Torn About Fluid Transfer - 4/4/2009 12:36:41 AM   
SailingBum


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yea I get mad at my self all the time for trying to make good choices.  Ya know like don't drink a 12 pack each night.  Try not to smoke the entire OZ in a weekend.  Do some sort of excersie stretching counts once a year needed or not.  Instead of eating the entire box of cookies I eat half.

It's called being responsible and it does suck.  But if you wanna party like a rock star.  Just know you will die in your mid 30's.  Uh so instead of whining like a baby.  Man up and make a choice. It's not a struggle I decided I am not gonna die of something stupid like STD

BadOne


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RE: Torn About Fluid Transfer - 4/4/2009 12:49:45 AM   
Vanityfull


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i think asking questions and being open is more "maning it up" than trolling posts...

in regardes to STDs alot are treatable these days, of corse its better not to have any, but things like HIV are not the death sentance they were back 20 or so years ago, like any issue should you come in contact with an STD im sure one who is stable can handle it and live relativly normaly,


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RE: Torn About Fluid Transfer - 4/4/2009 12:51:54 AM   
HeavansKeeper


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BadOne, you're right. But just how many cookies do you eat? How many beers will it be tonight? How much of that oz before you decide not to drive? How many hours a week go into working out as opposed to watching Food Network? Just how young do you want to die?

That's where I am. At first, I was frustrated I couldn't have my cake and eat it too, but now I'm more optimistic. I'm thinking up ways to reconcile my two oppositional needs.

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RE: Torn About Fluid Transfer - 4/4/2009 12:59:29 AM   
SailingBum


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HeavansKeeper

BadOne, you're right. But just how many cookies do you eat? How many beers will it be tonight? How much of that oz before you decide not to drive? How many hours a week go into working out as opposed to watching Food Network? Just how young do you want to die?

That's where I am. At first, I was frustrated I couldn't have my cake and eat it too, but now I'm more optimistic. I'm thinking up ways to reconcile my two oppositional needs.


Now yer talking...  Wanna party be smart about it less beer and more weed < no health downside so far anywho>  Find a couple smoking HOT bitchs and keep em....

BadOne


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RE: Torn About Fluid Transfer - 4/4/2009 1:10:55 AM   
SailingBum


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Great Job on the HIV stats dude.  What lots of folk fail to remember is the HIV rates are low now is due to the scare in the 80's.  In the 70's and 80's most ppl didnt think twice about being with a different partner literally every weekend.  Until HIV came along.

BadOne


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RE: Torn About Fluid Transfer - 4/4/2009 10:19:09 AM   
honeygirl


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Lots of good stuff there. I just wanted to mention that Gardasil is only currently allowed (in the US, at least) for females aged 9-26 so it is not available to most women.

quote:

ORIGINAL: HollywoodExecDom

If you're a woman, given the incidence of HPV, you absolutely should have the HPV vaccine. I can't stress this enough.



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RE: Torn About Fluid Transfer - 4/4/2009 2:35:42 PM   
Andalusite


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kiwisub, yes, I think a phobia can be pretty mild (ie. physiological and emotional reaction that is much stronger than is rational, but not to the degree that someone needs psychological help). For example, one of my exboyfriends had a very difficult time with getting shots or blood drawn, because he was afraid of needles. Just seeing the nurse with one made his heartrate go up, and made him queasy. He specifically asked me for help with desensitising him (we did *NOT* do needle play, and I didn't push him at all in this area). First, I got a syringe without the needle and let him get comfortable with it, then a needle with the cover on (getting closer to him over the course of a few different days with it), then touching him with a needle that had been blunted). The next time he had to go to the doctor for shots, he said he was able to do so much more comfortably. A different guy I dated had a similar reaction to spiders. He did most of the desensitisation stuff himself, but asked me to be there, especially at first, for reassurance. Neither of them were screaming or running out of the room or anything, but they felt that their fear was affecting them in a negative way, and wanted to address it.

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RE: Torn About Fluid Transfer - 4/4/2009 3:08:24 PM   
antipode


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quote:

not to touch the walls on


Licensed clubs in The Netherlands have to conform with national health regulations, and are inspected regularly, so it is likely to be a tall tale.

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RE: Torn About Fluid Transfer - 4/4/2009 3:26:05 PM   
antipode


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quote:

unprotected vaginal sex: 2%. (Note: HIV viral load


I am goin to tell you the same thing I tell my engineers when they think they can base survivability calculations on Mean Time Between Failure: statistics are completely useless. In every type of risk situation, the majority of subjects will not fall prey to the risk, and whether that is 2% or 9% is completely immaterial.

What is important to assess is that a risk exists, and if one decides to take part in risky behaviour, how to mitigate the risk, and what to do when things go wrong. It then boils down to the importance of a certain activity in one's life.

The most significant danger in terms of attracting an STD has nothing to do with STD's at all. It is the risk you run by having sex with someone you don't know well, while under the influence of alcohol or drugs, when one's ability to judge is impaired.

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RE: Torn About Fluid Transfer - 4/4/2009 3:34:53 PM   
smartalex


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FR: re Gardasil:

If a woman over 26 tests negative for HPV, she is eligible to get the shots. Insurance won't pay for it, and it's a series of 3 shots that cost about $180 each, but she can get the shots. HPV can be symptom-free, so you need to have the pap that checks for that (i'm pretty sure it's part of the pap & not a blood draw), but if you are negative, you can pay out of pocket for the shots.

By the same token, the Gardasil rep told me that she has not been aware of any insurer who will cover a woman over 26 getting the shots, even if the provider is told on the phone that they will. (They're like the IRS, they can't be held to what they tell you on the phone. Disclaimers everywhere.)

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RE: Torn About Fluid Transfer - 4/5/2009 12:30:42 AM   
Tslaveboy


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You can get more bacteria and germs from shaking hands than kissing. That's something to think about.

You can get infected with flesh-eating bacteria that could kill you just by using a gym that isn't wiped down properly.

You could choke on a pretzel and die in the comfort of your sanitized room safe from all the dangers of the world.

When it comes to sex, there are precautions you could take and still have fun. This week I consumed golden, I had a golden enema and consumed loads of spit. I feel perfectly fine. In the past I've engaged in many acts of scat play (roman, ruby, brown and golden) and according to my medical check-ups, I'm perfectly healthy.

You just need to get this all into perspective. Nothing is 100% safe.

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RE: Torn About Fluid Transfer - 4/5/2009 11:25:10 AM   
Jeptha


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I feel your pain, HK.

I do think there's a lot of ways to play safely with this, because, as you've kind of alluded to, part (or most) of what's hot about it is in your mind(s). Otherwise, it's just a bunch of people fucking. Which I'd enjoy as a voyeur, out of idle or prurient curiosity, but probably ultimately wouldn't really care all that much about.

Some people may argue that some acts (like oral) are safer (not absolutely safe, but "safer"...) than others. I'm not an authority on the subject, so you'd have to sort out the facts for yourself (which you'd of course do anyway.)

It seems to me the safest way to do fluid transfer would be to have a closed circle of people who were tested and reliable.

But how does one put that together?
I think there are ways, but it ain't easy.

However, as with so many things, the process (journey) can be regarded as just as important as the result (destination), and there is potential for having fun even with that (That is; even if you don't ever quite get to the destination.)


< Message edited by Jeptha -- 4/5/2009 11:29:23 AM >


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RE: Torn About Fluid Transfer - 4/5/2009 11:26:19 AM   
honeygirl


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Thanks for that info, smartalex! Great to know this -- and I totally believe you about the reps lying on the phone about coverage. It's a shame they can be such shysters!

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RE: Torn About Fluid Transfer - 4/5/2009 2:20:03 PM   
DavanKael


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HK, you wanted an opposing, caution to the wind viewpoint.  I don't have one personally but, without saying anything identifying, I had a partner who, if one counts oral (And I do) was probably somewhere in the 4-digits (No, I am not kidding), threw caution to the wind with condoms routinely, and tested negative for every std a male can possibly be tested for (Cause, I was very concerned with that information). 
Trying to think of how I approach a more pragmatic and less paranoid stance:  the things that are more likely to kill you are harder to get (Which is way good), about 90% of people have, have had, or will have hpv of one form or another during their sexual lifetimes and only a tiny percentage will have any serious physical and/or psychological effects (And, males of any age and females over 27 can self-pay and receive Gardisil if they wish).  Something that still makes me twitch beyond reason: the infection rates of hsv (herpes simplex virus) aren't separated out so the stats for the kind that is typically oral and the kind that is typically genital are smooshed together and one can jump from one place to the other when transmitted (Someone with a coldsore going down on someone can transmit the oral hsv that they have to the receiver's genitals). 
I acknowledged an emotional bias to some of my ocd-esque behavior around such things and I think you did too.  I don't know.  Testing is prudent, condoms while sucking greatly are a good idea (Though I'd be a raging hypocrite if I espoused constant use), etc.: minimizing risks while not letting it run your life.  What's the mid-line approach you were considering? 
Davan

< Message edited by DavanKael -- 4/5/2009 2:21:23 PM >


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RE: Torn About Fluid Transfer - 4/5/2009 3:08:00 PM   
antipode


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quote:

less beer and more weed < no health downside so far anywho>


You wish - today's weed is highly addictive, as they are finding out in the countries where it has been legalized, and where its quality is monitored. I have seen it from up close - had a sub who had been smoking from age 15, who couldn't stop, and eventually (I kicked her out) needed several years of therapy and medication to kick the habit.

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