Redemption? (Full Version)

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philosophy -> Redemption? (4/4/2009 6:28:48 PM)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090404/ap_on_re_us/one_man_s_apology

......a story that made me sit back and ponder.........




CruelNUnsual -> RE: Redemption? (4/4/2009 6:56:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090404/ap_on_re_us/one_man_s_apology

......a story that made me sit back and ponder.........


A feeble attempt at it, yes.

""And I found out there is no way I could be saved and get to heaven and still not like blacks."

Like Pascal's Wager, if there were a heaven, insincere beliefs certainly wouldnt get you there.




FirmhandKY -> RE: Redemption? (4/4/2009 6:59:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090404/ap_on_re_us/one_man_s_apology

......a story that made me sit back and ponder.........


A feeble attempt at it, yes.

""And I found out there is no way I could be saved and get to heaven and still not like blacks."

Like Pascal's Wager, if there were a heaven, insincere beliefs certainly wouldnt get you there.

Forgiveness is a core Christian value.

Firm




LookieNoNookie -> RE: Redemption? (4/4/2009 7:08:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090404/ap_on_re_us/one_man_s_apology

......a story that made me sit back and ponder.........


A feeble attempt at it, yes.

""And I found out there is no way I could be saved and get to heaven and still not like blacks."

Like Pascal's Wager, if there were a heaven, insincere beliefs certainly wouldnt get you there.

Forgiveness is a core Christian value.

Firm



I'm at a crossroads on this one bud...I hate him as much as he hated others...and yet I want to forgive him.

Ask him to give something up larger than his own life...other than a change in his "personal morals".  Ask him to give up something comparable to that which he stole.

Ask him to give up his fear.

Ask him to wonder if his house will stand tomorrow morning (if he wakes up in his own bed....without 4th degree burns....able to watch the morning news, not fearful for his children's future)....or after he returns from church, telling God he was a good man, tithing because he could.

Ask him if his diabetes is enough of a price.

I say it's not.

(Not even remotely).





Kirata -> RE: Redemption? (4/4/2009 7:32:24 PM)

These are the men whom Wilson taunted all those years ago. The men to whom he has been apologizing in recent months, asking their forgiveness and blessing.
 
I can understand his desire to apologize to those he hurt. But I don't think I could ask for their forgiveness and blessing.
 
K.
 
 




DarkSteven -> RE: Redemption? (4/4/2009 7:41:42 PM)

Sounds like a deathbed conversion to me.  I see the effort, but it doesn't seem sincere to me.




philosophy -> RE: Redemption? (4/4/2009 8:02:09 PM)

.....seems to me that it is not for us to judge his sincerity or lack of it. Stories like this, where people recant horrible beliefs, point to the possibility of personal redemption.Not just in the Christian sense, but in a highly individual sense.........and individual actions feed back to wider society.




FirmhandKY -> RE: Redemption? (4/4/2009 9:02:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

.....seems to me that it is not for us to judge his sincerity or lack of it. Stories like this, where people recant horrible beliefs, point to the possibility of personal redemption.Not just in the Christian sense, but in a highly individual sense.........and individual actions feed back to wider society.


Wise words.

Firm




CruelNUnsual -> RE: Redemption? (4/4/2009 9:15:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090404/ap_on_re_us/one_man_s_apology

......a story that made me sit back and ponder.........


A feeble attempt at it, yes.

""And I found out there is no way I could be saved and get to heaven and still not like blacks."

Like Pascal's Wager, if there were a heaven, insincere beliefs certainly wouldnt get you there.

Forgiveness is a core Christian value.

Firm



But my understanding is that god only forgives the truly repentent




CruelNUnsual -> RE: Redemption? (4/4/2009 9:18:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

.....seems to me that it is not for us to judge his sincerity or lack of it. Stories like this, where people recant horrible beliefs, point to the possibility of personal redemption.Not just in the Christian sense, but in a highly individual sense.........and individual actions feed back to wider society.


why isnt it for us to judge his sincerity..theres nothing else that will [&:]




FirmhandKY -> RE: Redemption? (4/4/2009 9:18:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual

But my understanding is that god only forgives the truly repentent


My understanding as well.

Who are we to judge what is in his heart?

Firm




philosophy -> RE: Redemption? (4/4/2009 11:40:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual

But my understanding is that god only forgives the truly repentent


...and from your next post....

quote:

why isnt it for us to judge his sincerity..theres nothing else that will [&:]


......that'd be hubris.




philosophy -> RE: Redemption? (4/4/2009 11:44:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual

But my understanding is that god only forgives the truly repentent


My understanding as well.

Who are we to judge what is in his heart?

Firm



..i think it is in our own interests to give him the benefit of the doubt. Consider the alternative.....to doubt this contrition can be to doubt the possibility of contrition really. That leads to a truly bleak world view, where redemption is never possible and our mistakes can never be turned from evil to good. Believing the possibility that evil can be turned back is to help make that possibility real.
i prefer to believe in the possibility of redemption, despite being an aethist. It's not about God for me.....it's about what kind of world we decide we are living in.




Kirata -> RE: Redemption? (4/5/2009 12:07:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

Consider the alternative.....to doubt this contrition can be to doubt the possibility of contrition really. That leads to a truly bleak world view, where redemption is never possible and our mistakes can never be turned from evil to good... i prefer to believe in the possibility of redemption, despite being an aethist.


Whoa, that's a big jump from contrition to redemption. Granting his contrition, whence comes his redemption? Redemption requires atonement, payment (e.g., Christ's sacrifice, in Christian theology). An apology repays (i.e., redeems) nothing, and turns no evil to good. The man himself may turn from evil to good, but he cannot transform his past evil into good. Even redemption can't do that.
 
K.
 
 
 




WyldHrt -> RE: Redemption? (4/5/2009 12:36:58 AM)

quote:

i prefer to believe in the possibility of redemption, despite being an aethist. It's not about God for me.....it's about what kind of world we decide we are living in.

Could he really feel bad? Maybe. But I'm with some of his victims in asking "why now?".
Had he had this amazing change of heart while still a healthy man, I would most likely support his efforts to seek redemption. That said, the man is dying and admittedly fears being judged for behaviour he always knew was wrong. I'm not a religious type, but it seems to me that this guy is more concerned about getting into "heaven" than righting the wrongs he gleefully committed for decades.

While the end of one's days often leads to reflection on past actions, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth when former Nazis, KKK supporters, etc recant their actions as they approach their deathbeds. To me, it simply says that they knew what they were doing was wrong all along.

As an aside, I used to live just up the street from former KKK Grand Dragon, Tom Metzger. His presence and behaviour were an embarrassment to the entire neighborhood, and I certainly won't buy it when his deathbed "attempt at redemption" makes the rounds.




MissMorrigan -> RE: Redemption? (4/5/2009 1:25:02 AM)

Wilson had his own demons to battle - which he did throughout most of his adult life, albeit ignorantly aimed at a minority of people who, rightly or wrongly in his eyes, deserved his wrath and was encouraged by the group to which he was a member. I think we focus too much on condemnation instead of understanding the reasons why a person would project such bitterness and seeming hatred. I have spoken to people who have raised their ums to be racist, home-tutoring them in the fundementals of white supremacy. To such people indoctrinated with this tenet, they see minorities as 'lesser people', and quite often, not people at all, therefore it is easier for them to justify acts of violence - even to consider them 'sport' and a way of life for a great many. So where is this failing? I believe it's a failing of society in general and the laws governing them for allowing pockets of communities to separate themselves and establish a system which teaches discrimination and fear, ultimately leading to violence, towards any targeted minority group.

My Nana, who was black and cared for me for several years when I was a child, didn't hate those that discriminated against her even when actions became violent, she didn't condemn them either because she knew they acted out of ignorance and fear. What is poignant in the piece that was posted and in some way partly explains the mentality towards them is this: "Says Massey, a retired minister who works with special education students: "There is always a small part of me goes back to that day."

The men say they never thought about their tormentors as individuals with real lives and real names. They forgave them a long time ago."

Regardless of his past actions, I see a troubled human being who is elderly, in poor health and coming towards the end of his life. It is not my responsibility to judge him, but continue to see him as a fellow human being, as I would anyone else. We all seek redemption in one way or another for past actions that have troubled us. No one is without misconduct in this world, even if that misconduct is moral damnation of others. 




Vendaval -> RE: Redemption? (4/5/2009 2:17:24 AM)

Better late than never.  Once a person is confronted by their own mortality they often start to question the decisions made in their life and the consequences.  And in many ways, old age and death are the great equalizers.




WyldHrt -> RE: Redemption? (4/5/2009 2:21:18 AM)

quote:

To such people indoctrinated with this tenet, they see minorities as 'lesser people', and quite often, not people at all, therefore it is easier for them to justify acts of violence - even to consider them 'sport' and a way of life for a great many.

My father was/is a racist, and I heard that crap the whole time I was growing up. I love him, but made it very clear 20 years ago that I would not put up with him spewing hate in my presence any longer, under any circumstances. There comes a time when everyone needs to take personal responsibility for their own actions and attitudes.
quote:

My Nana, who was black and cared for me for several years when I was a child, didn't hate those that discriminated against her even when actions became violent, she didn't condemn them either because she knew they acted out of ignorance and fear

Your Nana was a wise lady, and had more than her share of kindness.
quote:

Regardless of his past actions, I see a troubled human being who is elderly, in poor health and coming towards the end of his life. It is not my responsibility to judge him, but continue to see him as a fellow human being, as I would anyone else.

Good for you, MM, I mean that. For myself, I am not so forgiving of those who happily wreak carnage on the lives of others and only change their tune when facing their own mortality. Note how many Death Row inmates "find Jesus" as their execution date approaches. My responsibility or not, I hold people accountable for their actions.





MissMorrigan -> RE: Redemption? (4/5/2009 2:57:01 AM)

Wyld, my own father was a racist. I also heard that crap day in/out, but we all have choices in life. I chose not to follow in his footsteps, I was fortunate to have a strong will and go my own way. Not all people have that inner strength. I did condemn my father for his attitude and behaviour towards others, I once said to him, "Because of the vile person you are, you will die a lonely old man with no one to care for you". The real tragedy of that is that he died exactly that way, laying in his own excrement for three days until he expired. I had no contact with him for fifteen years prior to his death. Had I known he was ill, I would have put aside my own differences with him to ensure he had some comforts in his final days. I do not believe in an 'eye for an eye' tenet. My one regret in life is that despite my resolve to go my own way and refuse to be like him, by thinking/saying such harsh words I had unwittingly become exactly like him. We are masters of our own lives, not those of others.

As for death row inmates finding 'jesus'. I'm personally not a religious person, I'm an atheist and can't question their motives for their becoming born again Christians, that is for them and their faith. What I can say is that those people on death row, who have been waiting for years to reach their end, are not the same persons as those who committed the crimes initially. It is not my responsibility to hold anyone accountable for their actions, I leave that to the correct authorities. I'm not nearly conceited enough to force my moral code on others for we each live with our own conscience and I've often found that while we focus our efforts on other people's misdioings, it sidelines us from attending to our own.

We aren't privy to a great deal of information about a person, Wyld, we know nothing of their lives, of their experiences, how those prejudices were formulated. All we can do is understand that they are also a human being, one that perhaps needs more forgiveness and love than others b/c for the life of me, I cannot see how a person could be so harsh towards others unless they severely lacked that in their life in the first place. 




WyldHrt -> RE: Redemption? (4/5/2009 3:21:18 AM)

It's late, so I will skip the part about how, in the US, it actually IS the responsibility of at least 12 people to judge those accused. That is not the point.
quote:

We aren't privy to a great deal of information about a person, Wyld, we know nothing of their lives, of their experiences, how those prejudices were formulated. All we can do is understand that they are also a human being, one that perhaps needs more forgiveness and love than others b/c for the life of me, I cannot see how a person could be so harsh towards others unless they severely lacked that in their life in the first place.

Not necessarily so, but not up to citing sources tonight.




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