Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (Full Version)

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Owner59 -> Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/7/2009 6:27:57 PM)

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/07/world/07detain.html?_r=1&hp

Medical personnel were deeply involved in the abusive interrogation of terrorist suspects held overseas by the Central Intelligence Agency, including torture, and their participation was a “gross breach of medical ethics,” a long-secret report by the International Committee of the Red Cross concluded"

"Facilitating such practices, which the Red Cross described as torture, was a violation of medical ethics even if the medical workers’ intentions had been to prevent death or permanent injury, the report said. But it found that the medical professionals’ role was primarily to support the interrogators, not to protect the prisoners, and that the professionals had “condoned and participated in ill treatment.”

At times, according to the detainees’ accounts, medical workers “gave instructions to interrogators to continue, to adjust or to stop particular methods.”




kittinSol -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/7/2009 6:35:17 PM)

Yes.




slvemike4u -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/7/2009 6:42:20 PM)

Since they  betrayed their first duty,do no harm,yes.




Louve00 -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/7/2009 7:01:40 PM)

hmmm...I'm thinking of the hypocratic oath, though, and wondering...were they *truly* doing no harm?

First...
This is a report that shouldn't have been seen by public eyes and also, the leak of this report can compromise the Red Cross' ability to get into places that other organizations can't get into.  For the sake of human life, thats not a very good thing.

Seems respect for human life is not really a factor at all here.




Aneirin -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/7/2009 7:14:16 PM)

Undoubtedly that would be a big yes, they failed in their primary duty and are not medics I would wish to know. Stuff like permitting an '' interegator'' to continue suggests harm has already been caused, bodily harm and most likely mental harm.

The bastards should be stripped of their medical licence, never permitted to work in care again.

But, there is a flip side to that, if the medics weren't there, how much worse could it have been, with a blood lust crazed sicko torturer enjoying his work. To be honest, why is the so called civillised western world, particularly people from the land of the free engaged in torture, when the western world is so quick to condemn other parts of the world run by despotic leaders and regimes.




Marc2b -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/7/2009 7:32:20 PM)

Absolutely.  They violated their oath.




Owner59 -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/7/2009 7:33:08 PM)

"should be stripped of their medical licence, never permitted to work in care again"

Hear hear!




marie2 -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/7/2009 7:45:46 PM)

This is nothing personal.  Just the thought that came into my mind reading this.

How willing would you guys be to stand by your convictions that these medical professionals should never touch a human again with the intent to administer medical assistance?

Hypothetically speaking just for shits and giggles....What if you or a loved one was in dire need of medical attention and one of these former medics was the only one around who could help?  Would you take help from one with blood on his hands,  or would you sooner die?





ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/7/2009 7:49:07 PM)

quote:

At times, according to the detainees’ accounts, medical workers “gave instructions to interrogators to continue, to adjust or to stop particular methods.”


"The subject is qualified for the question." It's the phrase doctors who attended during the Spanish Inquisition used to assure interrogators that the prisoner they were torturing was strong enough to survive more torture. The more things change, the more things stay the same....

I say let the cocksuckers continue to practice medicine. As aides in the prison infirmary while they are serving their fucking sentences.




maybemaybenot -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/7/2009 7:51:52 PM)

It is a misconception that the Hippocratic oath contains the words... First do no harm. It does not. It is also an oath taken only by Physicians, not other medical personel.
No, I do not believe medics should be held liable.
The first question that comes to mind to those of you looking for a public hanging of the medical personnel based on " First do no harm":
What is your position on Physician assited suicide ? I suspect many of you are supporters. How do you  reconcile that with your dogma of doing no harm ?

You need an new arguement, since the facts of " do no harm" and  oath taking doesn't apply.

                                               mbmbn

The Hippocratic Oath
(Original Version)
I SWEAR by Apollo the physician, AEsculapius, and Health, and All-heal, and all the gods and goddesses, that, according to my ability and judgement, I will keep this Oath and this stipulation.
TO RECHON him who taught me this Art equally dear to me as my parents, to share my substance with him, and relieve his necessities if required; to look up his offspring in the same footing as my own brothers, and to teach them this art, if they shall wish to learn it, without fee or stipulation; and that by precept, lecture, and every other mode of instruction, I will impart a knowledge of the Art to my own sons, and those of my teachers, and to disciples bound by a stipulation and oath according the law of medicine, but to none others.
I WILL FOLLOW that system of regimen which, according to my ability and judgment, I consider for the benefit of my patients, and abstain from whatever is deleterious and mischievous. I will give no deadly medicine to any one if asked, nor suggest any such counsel; and in like manner I will not give a woman a pessary to produce abortion.
WITH PURITY AND WITH HOLINESS I will pass my life and practice my Art. I will not cut persons laboring under the stone, but will leave this to be done by men who are practitioners of this work. Into whatever houses I enter, I will go into them for the benefit of the sick, and will abstain from every voluntary act of mischief and corruption; and, further from the seduction of females or males, of freemen and slaves.
WHATEVER, IN CONNECTION with my professional practice or not, in connection with it, I see or hear, in the life of men, which ought not to be spoken of abroad, I will not divulge, as reckoning that all such should be kept secret.
WHILE I CONTINUE to keep this Oath unviolated, may it be granted to me to enjoy life and the practice of the art, respected by all men, in all times! But should I trespass and violate this Oath, may the reverse be my lot!
_____________________________________________________________________________________________
 
The Hippocratic Oath
(Modern Version)

I SWEAR in the presence of the Almighty and before my family, my teachers and my peers that according to my ability and judgment I will keep this Oath and Stipulation.
TO RECKON all who have taught me this art equally dear to me as my parents and in the same spirit and dedication to impart a knowledge of the art of medicine to others. I will continue with diligence to keep abreast of advances in medicine. I will treat without exception all who seek my ministrations, so long as the treatment of others is not compromised thereby, and I will seek the counsel of particularly skilled physicians where indicated for the benefit of my patient.
I WILL FOLLOW that method of treatment which according to my ability and judgment, I consider for the benefit of my patient and abstain from whatever is harmful or mischievous. I will neither prescribe nor administer a lethal dose of medicine to any patient even if asked nor counsel any such thing nor perform the utmost respect for every human life from fertilization to natural death and reject abortion that deliberately takes a unique human life.
WITH PURITY, HOLINESS AND BENEFICENCE I will pass my life and practice my art. Except for the prudent correction of an imminent danger, I will neither treat any patient nor carry out any research on any human being without the valid informed consent of the subject or the appropriate legal protector thereof, understanding that research must have as its purpose the furtherance of the health of that individual. Into whatever patient setting I enter, I will go for the benefit of the sick and will abstain from every voluntary act of mischief or corruption and further from the seduction of any patient.
WHATEVER IN CONNECTION with my professional practice or not in connection with it I may see or hear in the lives of my patients which ought not be spoken abroad, I will not divulge, reckoning that all such should be kept secret.
WHILE I CONTINUE to keep this Oath unviolated may it be granted to me to enjoy life and the practice of the art and science of medicine with the blessing of the Almighty and respected by my peers and society, but should I trespass and violate this Oath, may the reverse by my lot.




marie2 -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/7/2009 8:02:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot

No, I do not believe medics should be held liable.
doesn't apply. 


I agree.  Oath or not.  What the heck might have happened if they hadn't monitored the victims?

I think until you're in those shoes, it's a really tough call.  Do I refuse, and let people possibly die or be permanently injured?   Or do I participate in this morally wrong situation, and hopefully keep the worst  from occuring?
 


                                           




kittinSol -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/7/2009 8:03:21 PM)

The Hippocratic Oath is a symbol, a rite of passage. It doesn't circumvent all of medical ethics, not even by far. Believe it or not, medicine has evolved a tiny little bit since the Greeks wrote it.




maybemaybenot -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/7/2009 8:10:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

The Hippocratic Oath is a symbol, a rite of passage. It doesn't circumvent all of medical ethics, not even by far. Believe it or not, medicine has evolved a tiny little bit since the Greeks wrote it.


That is why I posted the original and modern version.  I agree  we have evolved a bit sine Hippocrates wrote it. I am not the one who said they were violating their first duty. I am pointing out the error in that, ergo not violating any oath or sworn statements related to their profession.

And if you notice, the oath applies to PATIENTS. These men were not patients, the medical personel had a very different role in this situation. The Greeks also made no provisions for prisoners. But if you know your history, they were pretty brutal to their enemies/prisoners, physicians included. It's comparing apples to oranges.

                      mbmbn




kittinSol -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/7/2009 8:26:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2

I agree.  Oath or not.  What the heck might have happened if they hadn't monitored the victims?

I think until you're in those shoes, it's a really tough call.  Do I refuse, and let people possibly die or be permanently injured?   Or do I participate in this morally wrong situation, and hopefully keep the worst  from occuring?
                                            


"Amnesty International believes that if doctors act according to the following principles, drawn from international ethics and human rights standards, they would be better able to resist efforts to get them involved in torture and better equipped to protect their patients from torture.

1) Clinical independence
Doctors should always act with clinical independence. They should offer clinical recommendations for their patients based on their findings and not as a result of instruction from third parties. Their primary responsibility is to their patients, not the authorities. (...)

2) Transparency
Doctors should always be identifiable to their patients and should expect to know the identity of the person whom they are examining or treating. They should not be expected to treat a patient who is blindfolded (for non-medical reasons) or is in any other way prevented from seeing the doctor. The doctor should not be expected to examine or interview a patient in the presence of third parties who impede free contact or alter the normal relationship between doctor and patient unless the doctor freely requests the presence of a third party to assist in communications or to maintain security. Doctors should never prescribe any treatment without sound clinical reasons.

3) Treatment
When an injured person is brought for treatment, doctors should always demand an explanation for the injury. Medical treatment should be given to torture victims, subject to their consent, in an ethical manner. If the victims are unable to consent because they are unconscious or drugged, for example, medical care should be provided in accordance with the ethical guidelines that would cover any similar case. The doctor should take all possible steps to prevent the patient being placed at further risk of torture.

4) Truth, clarity and accuracy
Doctors should make a clear and competent record of the findings of their medical interviews and examinations. This should include a careful record of any sign and effect of torture when that is found. They should never cover or hide evidence of torture. Such a record is crucial to achieving justice for victims of torture.

5) ''Blowing the whistle''
Doctors should take action when they see or learn of torture. If security considerations permit it, they should bring evidence of torture to the attention of the manager of the institution in question. If this cannot be done in safety, they should report to a responsible body at the earliest opportunity. Doctors should use their best judgment to decide what national body can be trusted to handle such information responsibly. In the absence of any such body, they should contact international bodies such as the United Nations, the World Medical Association and the International Committee of the Red Cross.

6) The role of medical associations
While it is important that all doctors be required to refuse to collaborate in torture, it has to be recognised that placing the burden of refusal on the individual doctor is to impose a difficult decision. The refusal of the doctor to participate in torture will be made immeasurably easier if the collective weight of the medical profession stands behind such refusals."

The whole page is superlatively informative: http://asiapacific.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGACT750012002?open&of=ENG-390.




kittinSol -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/7/2009 8:27:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot

And if you notice, the oath applies to PATIENTS.



No? Why, then, were doctors brought in to oversee them?




popeye1250 -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/7/2009 8:29:39 PM)

Owner, do you think anyone really cares?




ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/7/2009 8:36:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot

What is your position on Physician assited suicide ? I suspect many of you are supporters. How do you  reconcile that with your dogma of doing no harm ?


The greater harm is forcing someone who is terminally ill to continue suffering if they wish to end their suffering. It's really not very complicated, is it?




samboct -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/7/2009 8:40:50 PM)

"I consider for the benefit of my patient and abstain from whatever is harmful or mischievous.":
 
I'd say that translating that as "First- do no harm." certainly conveys the intent of the oath, even if the literal words are different.
 
Clearly we often ask physicians to relieve suffering by aiding terminal patients to end their days (euthenasia if you prefer) and perform abortions, so the oath isn't inviolate.
 
From my perspective however, medical personnel who assist in torture are effectively prolonging the process and may in fact aid in the extraction of information- which theoretically is the rationale behind the process in the first place- although I think most torture is just true sadism.  I think jail time for torturers is called for including medical personnel.  Loss of license is also called for.  We have to start making a medical license dependent on the physicians ability to practice good medicine rather than historical accomplishments.  If physicians lost their licenses for egregious errors- we'd go a long way to eliminating malpractice cases and reduce the costs of medicine terrifically.
 
I will point out that there is a slippery slope here- what about physicians who aid in executions?  Aren't they violating the Hippocratic oath as well?  If the medical personnel taking part thought that the torture was legal (and at the time, that was the prevailing opinion)- doesn't that give them the same shield as medical personnel who supervise an execution which is also legal? 
 
Note- my solution- get rid of both torture and capital punishment.
 
Sam




maybemaybenot -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/7/2009 8:55:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot

What is your position on Physician assited suicide ? I suspect many of you are supporters. How do you  reconcile that with your dogma of doing no harm ?


The greater harm is forcing someone who is terminally ill to continue suffering if they wish to end their suffering. It's really not very complicated, is it?



Yes, it is quite complicated actually. Death is not the only way to alleve the suffering of the terminally ill. I do it every day. Palliative practitioners can alleve pain and suffering quite nicely with the right combinations of medicine, emotional, spiritual and hollistic support.
It's a topic for anothe thread, but you need look no further than Holland. Depression and arthritis are now classified as terminal illnesses and one qualifies for euthanasia with these diagnosis. People have been ethanized against their wishes to " open up a bed" for a non terminal patient.  So, yea, it's complicated

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/background_briefings/euthanasia/331270.stm

Sorry for the hijack.

                                mbmbn




Owner59 -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/7/2009 9:03:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Owner, do you think anyone really cares?


Ovbiously not you ,Pop.

But yes I do.

A Dr. who helped torture?

That`s as grim as it gets.

We`re not the soviet union.




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