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RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/10/2009 6:30:07 AM   
samboct


Posts: 1817
Joined: 1/17/2007
Status: offline 		Firm

You seem to be making an arbitrary distinction between the rights of putative Muslim terrorists and the rest of us.  Let me give you the following quote-

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

I don't think the author of this document would agree with you.  Neither do I.

Sam

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RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/10/2009 8:28:33 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

     Values come into conflict, RML. 


If they are values they shouldn't.

Isn't that the very meaning of the word, principles and standards?

If you turn your back on your principles can they still be considered principles?

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RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/10/2009 10:35:04 AM   
TreasureKY


Posts: 3032
Joined: 4/10/2007
From: Kentucky
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

Firm

You seem to be making an arbitrary distinction between the rights of putative Muslim terrorists and the rest of us.  Let me give you the following quote-

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

I don't think the author of this document would agree with you.  Neither do I.

Sam


Wouldn't it be great if everyone, everywhere agreed with that ideology... that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness?

Problem is, they don't. 

Are you saying that we should accord those Muslim terrorists the right to pursue their own happiness... even if it entails pursuing the utter destruction of others whom they don't believe have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?

I'm afraid that's what the problem is in discussions like these.  Some people want to view the world as black and white... life should be fair... answers to problems should be as easy as pointing to the nearest law or ideology. 

It isn't. 

Life isn't fair or easy.  Throughout the world's history, greater men and women than you or I have considered, debated, and struggled with the same problems and issues.  Unfortunately, we will be no more successful in reaching a solution... or even a consensus.

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RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/10/2009 11:07:37 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		Life isn't fair or easy. 

True perhaps and for everyone.It`s how one conducts themselves when challenged or under stress,that separates the men from the boys.


Throughout the world's history, greater men and women than you or I have considered, debated, and struggled with the same problems and issues.  Unfortunately, we will be no more successful in reaching a solution... or even a consensus
 
 
We in the west had this pretty well licked ,until that moron good for nothing turd buster started trying to impress the likes of folks like you and Firm.
 
 

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 4/10/2009 11:09:23 AM >

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RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/10/2009 11:16:54 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		What I love is this: "Muslim terrorists". Note the emphasis on "Muslim", as if it emphasised the crime of terrorism. A "Muslim terrorist" is so much worse than any other specie of terrorist.

Apart from the fourteen men mentioned in this report, there are many who were tortured and mistreated because they were Muslims and in the wrong place at the wrong time - and innocent, and later released. What's their compensation?

What a lovely mentality  . How very Christian  .

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 4/10/2009 11:17:24 AM >

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RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/10/2009 11:22:53 AM   
ThatDamnedPanda


Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY




Are you saying that we should accord those Muslim terrorists the right to pursue their own happiness... even if it entails pursuing the utter destruction of others whom they don't believe have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?


I can't speak for him, but I think you're completely misrepresenting what he's saying. He's not talking about terrorists - he's talking about (at best)  alleged terrorists, people who not only have never been tried (let alone convicted) but in many cases are known by the government to be innocent.



quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY
I'm afraid that's what the problem is in discussions like these.  Some people want to view the world as black and white... life should be fair... answers to problems should be as easy as pointing to the nearest law or ideology. 


The larger problem with discussions like these is when people blatantly misprepresent other people's words and the basic facts of the issue in order to confuse the issue and avoid having to admit they've lost the  argument.


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RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/10/2009 11:56:59 AM   
samboct


Posts: 1817
Joined: 1/17/2007
Status: offline 		"Are you saying that we should accord those Muslim terrorists the right to pursue their own happiness... even if it entails pursuing the utter destruction of others whom they don't believe have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?"

Treasure-

There's a far more profound translation of those words which imply that all of us are equal under the law and under the eyes of a supposed creator.  Over time, what we've learned is that excluding others on the basis of their race, gender, religion or sexual orientation is a mistake and that if we view others as having the same rights as ourselves, we set a worthy example to the rest of the world.  It's a challenge- it's not easy, and it does require courage.  Human beings have an innate desire to exclude others unlike themselves from their tribe, but these words show that this base instinct should be overcome- same as urge to murder.

In terms of the specific group at hand- let's make a few distinctions, shall we?

1)  Are Muslims not covered by this declaration?
2)  Are Muslims which believe that their religion is the only way to salvation not covered by this declaration?
3)  Are Muslims which chant death to Satan and America not covered by this declaration?
4)  Are Muslims who plot terrorist actions and carry them out covered by this declaration?

I suspect most people are going to draw the line at #4.  I will not.  One of the most important lessons of warfare is to acknowledge the humanity of your opponent.  If you do not do so, you will never be able to accept your former enemy as your ally.  I will point out that some of our staunchest allies in the world today are Germany and Japan, yet 3 generations ago, we were locked in mortal combat.  Relations with Viet Nam, our putative victors, are regaining a sense of normalcy.

Assuming that we are in a war with a chunk of the Muslim world (I do not agree with this premise- I think the religion has been hijacked by a handful of criminals, but the same could be said for Nazi Germany, so I'll acknowledge your viewpoint here.) failing to treat these people with the respect suggested by the Declaration of Independence has only stiffened their resolve and aided their recruitment efforts. We are in a battle of hearts and minds- and we're losing.  This is not a war of geography or military conquest, it is a war of ideas and ideals.  Our ideals as espoused by the Declaration of Independence have the support of the free world- our criminal actions of the past administration do not.

Does this mean that I'm espousing lying down and baring our throats to these terrorists?  Absolutely not.  They are criminals and should be put in jail- and there is nothing in the Declaration of Independence that says that criminals should not be punished appropriately.  Indeed, since the actions of criminals deprive the rest of us of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, criminals should be pursued vigorously.  But we cannot punish the innocent as well-that's the hallmark of a totalitarian state where security is the overiding concern.

Sam  (who's worried he's sounding rather pompous here, but is tired of having the moral high ground hijacked by supposed "patriots".)

(in reply to Owner59)
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RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/10/2009 6:40:53 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

    Values come into conflict, RML. 


If they are values they shouldn't.

Isn't that the very meaning of the word, principles and standards?

If you turn your back on your principles can they still be considered principles?




       What dream world nonsense is this, RML?  Values should never conflict?  Hard choices don't exist?  Please explain.

     

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Profile   Post #: 208
RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/10/2009 6:58:13 PM   
Emperor1956


Posts: 2370
Joined: 11/7/2005
Status: offline 		FR:  Interesting to find this discussion here.  The day the report was released, I raised the question with my class, which is concerned with the regulation of physician conduct.   Every one of the persons in the class (all licensed professionals of one stripe or another) believed that any physician who assisted in torture should be prosecuted under the appropriate licensing act.  Among, lawyers, doctors, and ministers, there was no dispute.  My class includes two ex-Military physicians and one currently serving.

There is of course precedent in the work of the AMA and several State Medical Societies in prosecuting physicians who assist at executions.  By the way, the argument that it is better to have medical personnel attending is specious; extensive research shows that the presence of a medic encourages the torturers to go further, and persons who have been placed in a situation analogous to torture (for instance, the Milgram experiments) report that the presence of the "doctor" or "scientist" encouraged them to apply more severe pain they they would have had there not been a "medic" present.

E.

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"What's for breakfast? What do you say, Piglet?"
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Pooh nodded thoughtfully.
"It's the same thing," he said.

(in reply to Owner59)
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RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/10/2009 7:16:01 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		Thank you Emperor.

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

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Profile   Post #: 210
RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/10/2009 7:18:19 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
Status: offline 		Yes. Thank you. I will now go make popcorn while I wait for one of the usual suspects to show up and tell you you're wrong.

_____________________________

Panda, panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?


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RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/10/2009 8:54:34 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

Firm

You seem to be making an arbitrary distinction between the rights of putative Muslim terrorists and the rest of us.  Let me give you the following quote-

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

I don't think the author of this document would agree with you.  Neither do I.

Sam


Wouldn't it be great if everyone, everywhere agreed with that ideology... that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness?

Problem is, they don't. 

Are you saying that we should accord those Muslim terrorists the right to pursue their own happiness... even if it entails pursuing the utter destruction of others whom they don't believe have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?

I'm afraid that's what the problem is in discussions like these.  Some people want to view the world as black and white... life should be fair... answers to problems should be as easy as pointing to the nearest law or ideology. 

It isn't. 

Life isn't fair or easy.  Throughout the world's history, greater men and women than you or I have considered, debated, and struggled with the same problems and issues.  Unfortunately, we will be no more successful in reaching a solution... or even a consensus.

Yeah but here's the thing Treasure,at least in my mind,I am not concerned whether or not everyone,everywhere agrees with that ideology....I do care ,and most fervantly,that we here in America not only beleive,but uphold and defend that ideology with our very lives if that is whats called for.
When we deviate from those ideals we have lost....no matter how many terrorists we send off to their 72 virgins.....

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(in reply to TreasureKY)
Profile   Post #: 212
RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/10/2009 9:31:40 PM   
TreasureKY


Posts: 3032
Joined: 4/10/2007
From: Kentucky
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

Yes. Thank you. I will now go make popcorn while I wait for one of the usual suspects to show up and tell you you're wrong.


Hmmm... Emperor relates the opinion of his class.  Kinda hard to say he's wrong... unless you were present in his class and aware that there was indeed no unanimous opinion.  I doubt any here would claim that.

To point out that all of his students are licensed professionals is rather... pointless.  If the medical professionals who attended information extraction sessions are subject to sanctions from any licensing association, then they, too, are licensed professionals.  Whose opinion is more valid... a licensed professional or a licensed professional? 

Seems a person might place more credence on the opinion that agrees with their own.  You know... a bit of confirmation bias.

Okay, so there's precedent that the AMA and some state medical societies seek prosecuting physicians who assist with executions.  And there's an argument that presence of medical personnel makes things worse in the case of torture.

*shrugs*  So what? 

I don't think anyone here has said that there aren't differing opinions and arguments. 

What is amusing to me is that there are so few to recognize that if this issue were so "cut and dried", there wouldn't be a need for any debate.  You wouldn't see any dissent among these licensing organizations.  There wouldn't be a matter of only some medical societies.  There wouldn't be a need to cite precedent.

Enjoy your popcorn. 

(in reply to ThatDamnedPanda)
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RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/10/2009 9:36:51 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		Such a sweet and gentle way to call someone a liar.

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

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RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/10/2009 9:49:01 PM   
TreasureKY


Posts: 3032
Joined: 4/10/2007
From: Kentucky
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Such a sweet and gentle way to call someone a liar.


Hardly.

Pointing out that there is no need to refute opinions is not calling someone a liar.

Do you understand the concept of the "straw man" argument?

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RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/11/2009 2:46:41 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Such a sweet and gentle way to call someone a liar.


Hardly.

Pointing out that there is no need to refute opinions is not calling someone a liar.

Do you understand the concept of the "straw man" argument?



Which "straw man" post are you refering to. As far as I see it, the argument is cut and dried and continually posting it isnt, wont change that point.

quote:

To point out that all of his students are licensed professionals is rather... pointless. 


Is there any reason this is pointless, other than it doesnt fit your argument ?  It seems a valid enough point to me.

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RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/11/2009 7:21:13 AM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

   Values come into conflict, RML. 


If they are values they shouldn't.

Isn't that the very meaning of the word, principles and standards?

If you turn your back on your principles can they still be considered principles?




      What dream world nonsense is this, RML?  Values should never conflict?  Hard choices don't exist?  Please explain.

    


If you have a certain value or principle that you live by then how does it come into conflict unless you yourself put it into conflict by trying to rationalize it away?

They only become hard choices when you allow yourself to stray from your own values.

And I'm not trying to be pious here, I've compromised my own principles on occasion, but at least I recognized it for what it was.

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RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/11/2009 7:59:09 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		 "What dream world nonsense is this, RML?  Values should never conflict?  Hard choices don't exist?  Please explain."

It`s not that they don`t exist.That`s a given.It`s also how we respond.

Explain values that after finding out a medic helped torture,that they(his peers) should then let it slide(for whatever reason).

How would that dubious set of rules read? It`s ok when you`re ordered?As in " I was only following orders"...?

It`s one thing to have sympathy for the offender and understand that shit happens in war.Quite another to turn a blind eye when it does happens.

At the very least there should be an inquiry and hearing.

I would understand and not be surprised that a bush supporter wouldn`t even want an investigation let alone sanctions.Those values send a message though of condoning torture and even promoting it.






_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

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RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/11/2009 8:23:52 AM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		       So are you saying there is only one value, RML?  That nothing is more important than a refusal to use harsh interrogation?

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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Profile   Post #: 219
RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/11/2009 8:33:44 AM   
LadyExcrutia


Posts: 36
Joined: 2/12/2009
Status: offline 		I hate torture. My husband is Latin American and being an outspoken critic of the local government got him into a cell and an interrogation room that is worse than anything they did at Gitmo, and there were doctors and nurses there to keep him alive and well to take one more day of it. So yes, I think that these people are criminally guilty by permission even if not by action itself. They should be put in jail too, so as to punish their own indolence and jaded detachment, their morality rotten forever after such an act.

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Profile   Post #: 220
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