RE: Is Education Overrated? (Full Version)

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popeye1250 -> RE: Is Education Overrated? (4/8/2009 10:51:27 AM)

Sravaka, I've been involved in situations before where everyone had a "degree", except of course,... the Boss's *Son or Daughter.*
How do we explain that?



Greyslade -> RE: Is Education Overrated? (4/8/2009 10:55:17 AM)

Sticking my background out in front for perspective. I've got an undergraduate degree and am most of the way to a Master's. No debt, and I'm seriously considering moving on to a PhD. I've paid my way through working and scholarships, as well as pushing myself to finish as quickly as possible. This cut a year off my undergrad.

I don't think the things I've learned I could have acquired in the job market easily. I've picked up a fair amount of vocational experience from the jobs I've held while going through school, not to mention references. Without both that experience and my education, I wouldn't have the job I do now. Considering my childhood barely prepared me to function in normal society, I'd say higher education was pretty important for me.

That answers the practical side of the argument. The philosophical side is that as an educated and experienced person, I am in a better position to appreciate my life and the world around me. I understand both myself and other better through my studies, and wouldn't trade that for a raise.

What I hate is the idea of "college life." When I was working through school, spring break was a chance to get in some overtime, not go to Cancun. Weekends were a chance to get non-school things done, not get wasted. I didn't join a frat, didn't go to parties four nights a week, didn't do a lot of things people prioritize over education as part of "college life" or the "college experience."

Too many people go to college for the wrong reasons. As a result, they come out with no real education and a series of useless habits.



popeye1250 -> RE: Is Education Overrated? (4/8/2009 11:19:31 AM)

Grayslade, boy is that true about "fratboys."
One time I was at the school bookstore getting somebooks all of which the V.A. paid for when some fratboys out in the hallway asked me if I was a student.
I said of course I was but I was a lot older than them so I could see why they asked.
They asked me if I wanted to join "Drinksalot Partyhardy Makeafoolofyourself" fraternity.
I looked at them and said; "I was in the U.S. Navy during Vietnam, I was in the U.S. Coast Guard. I shoot expert and know how to fire a .50 Cal Machine Gun, do think I'd look good in a FUCKIN' BEANIE!" "DO YA?"
They just stood there with their mouths open not saying anything. lol



subtlebutterfly -> RE: Is Education Overrated? (4/8/2009 11:20:13 AM)

I don't think education is overrated...however I wish it was *sigh*



pahunkboy -> RE: Is Education Overrated? (4/8/2009 2:28:53 PM)

College degrees are over priced.

But self taught knowledge is extremely valuable.  No one can learn for you.   What is most missing is the bond of older generations teaching the younger.  We loose more then we know.  Foolishness comes to mind.

I agree with Term about problem solving skills.

Todays crises- is going to shake up the university system.  Profoundly.  No one is going to pay 40k a year for college to get a $10 an hour job. So the universities will adjust and die.  It is that simple.  people are catching on to the student loan thing.  Essentially a mortgage without a house.


Trade school will do well.

Real skills.

Learning is never a bad thing.   We need more of it.   We also need more people to ask questions and challenge the status quo.

A curious mind is a good thing.   The smartest people I know got that way from reading on their own.  Or life experience.

The current paradyme is over.     Many dont want to hear it.  Yet- it isnt as sudden as one may thing.  We been selling out- bit by bit since 1968.

The TV set is grampas wisdom.   We are so screwed.




Lynnxz -> RE: Is Education Overrated? (4/8/2009 2:41:11 PM)

You can get degrees from smaller colleges for little to nothing with the right scholarships PH. [8|]



aravain -> RE: Is Education Overrated? (4/8/2009 2:44:49 PM)

Hmm, on that same vein, though, I know guys who have graduated and *because* of the connections created by joining their fraternity have truly excellent jobs. Then again, my old school *was* full of fraternities that were mostly dry (that is, no alcohol on the premises)



Crush -> RE: Is Education Overrated? (4/8/2009 3:39:05 PM)

As a college professor, I can tell you what a college degree is good for:

1) Your first job.  After that, transcripts rarely matter.
2) Getting more opportunities to work in an air conditioned environment.
3) Prove you can complete something you start.
4) Earn more money than *most* people who don't have a degree.
5) Degrees provide mobility in many companies.
6) Expose you to a variety of things you might not even think of...that "variety" stuff
And a few other things.

Though some universities, you get indoctrination instead of education.  But that happens at the truck stop too....



Greyslade -> RE: Is Education Overrated? (4/8/2009 3:54:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: aravain

Hmm, on that same vein, though, I know guys who have graduated and *because* of the connections created by joining their fraternity have truly excellent jobs. Then again, my old school *was* full of fraternities that were mostly dry (that is, no alcohol on the premises)


With a grain of salt and a bit of unjust bitterness, I might add that connections are by no means a replacement for competance. Much of my experience with fraternities is having to clean up after them, sometimes literally. As a result, I'm not especially fond of them.

Not all knowledge is available through alternative means, either. One can become a journalist without a degree in journalism; becoming a brain surgeon or lawyer without higher education is somewhat awkward.

Debt is more serious than I tend to think of it, due to avoiding it. While I've occasionally skipped a meal around textbook buying time due to cash flow, I have the option of moving on without many restrictions. Someone with 30k+ in the hole is unlikely to feel the same way.



SilverMark -> RE: Is Education Overrated? (4/8/2009 4:34:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Grayslade, boy is that true about "fratboys."
One time I was at the school bookstore getting somebooks all of which the V.A. paid for when some fratboys out in the hallway asked me if I was a student.
I said of course I was but I was a lot older than them so I could see why they asked.
They asked me if I wanted to join "Drinksalot Partyhardy Makeafoolofyourself" fraternity.
I looked at them and said; "I was in the U.S. Navy during Vietnam, I was in the U.S. Coast Guard. I shoot expert and know how to fire a .50 Cal Machine Gun, do think I'd look good in a FUCKIN' BEANIE!" "DO YA?"
They just stood there with their mouths open not saying anything. lol


As a frat boy in my MUCH younger years...we didn't wear beanies....but you would look good in one Popeye!...
I had a few older brothers in the house and they were more of the wilder ones I ever knew. The guys there on the Army's bill could drink the rest of us under the table and played cards like pros!...They were and still are great brothers and I still stay in touch with most of them.There is a lot more to being a Brother than "us vs. them" or just the rich kids and it, like everything else to do with an undergraduate education teaches more than we realize until later in lfe. It isn't just 4 years but a lifetime....



DedicatedDom40 -> RE: Is Education Overrated? (4/8/2009 4:48:03 PM)

On a local newspaper's website this morning, there was a story about state legislators who are trying to stop undocumented immigrants from attending any universty that is supported by public dollars.  One respondant posted that illegals are defacto "criminals", and have no right to attend our colleges. His response was your typical Hannity or O'Reilly response to the problem.  A second respondant mentioned that immigration law is under the jurisdiction of civil law, and is not under criminal law, basically inferring that nobody is a "criminal" when they break civil law (which is equal to getting a parking ticket.), but rather they are criminals only when they break criminal law, which the vast majority of undocumented immigrants have not done.  That same poster then made a statement that every four years, there should be a basic civics test that goes along with the presidential election cycle, and that one should be required to possess rudimentary knowledge of basic civics to retain their citizenship, and that if we excluded half the 'native born' people who fail at distinguishing the differences between criminal law and civil law from attending college, there would be many more openings available to hard working immigrants.

I do believe significant hype exists in certain political quarters to dismiss the benefits of higher education, and much of that comes from people who, while skilled in some trade, fail to possess the most rudimentary knowledge of civics.

Having enough street smarts to get by and pay your bills is not the same as being a visionary in your field. Advancement of our culture requires both, and I dismiss anyone who puts all their emphasis on any one avenue. We have many skilled jobs filled by "street smart" people that only exist as the result of some visionary.

I do believe having the degrees is more than just some proof you could pass some test.  It is proof that you invested time - and yourself - towards learning the material.  Not everybody is successful in taking that book knowledge and turning it into real world use, but having that book knowledge is an asset that should take you farther than others who did not invest the equivalent time.





aravain -> RE: Is Education Overrated? (4/8/2009 5:11:07 PM)

Maybe not, but it got them ahead of the incompetent people they were up against.

Coupled with competence (which you can't necessarily prove in the interview process) it's very helpful.

I know what you mean about distasteful fraternities, though. I've seen a small glimpse of them at my new school, and through one of my friends who transferred to a different school. My old school's greek system was amazing in that any fraternity/sorority that hazed was instantly kicked off campus once it was proved (put on probation and such during investigation), and most were dry houses. It actually *was* a good way of enriching the entirety of your life (having dated one of the fraternity boys and attending many of their functions as his +1, they get people who come back 20-30 years later for some events).



sophia37 -> RE: Is Education Overrated? (4/8/2009 5:55:42 PM)

College degrees aren't priceless. They are actually quite expensive. And I guess that's where I've been caught up. I have a masters degree. And while I am so glad I went for the extra step, I will be dealing with the debt for my entire lifetime. My degree did not earn me extra cash. And while I'm smart enough to figure out how to do deferment and how to file for income sensitive repayments, its always going to be my burden to deal with. And very few people find student debt something they sympathize with. While the US is so busy doing bailouts, student loan bailouts cant be far behind.  



heartcream -> RE: Is Education Overrated? (4/8/2009 6:51:41 PM)

I didnt read all the posts but some of them. I agree with the love of the library, I share that.

I went 6 years post-secondary even though I pretty much hated school from the get-go in Kindergarten. I couldnt stand the florescent lighting, the bad teachers, the classroom politics, the gaps between the bossy kids, the cool kids, the dorky kids, poor kids and so on.

I thought I would like to teach but not in this system, the ceiling too low figuratively and physically. I think education is over rated. People are rarely looked at for what they bring as a person first. It is a lot of 'Intimidating Form' is how I have best heard it described.

The most important lessons are not learned in school for the most part. Sure I learned lots of incredible things in school but often because that is where I was. Any person could have taught me things, books, people. Amazing people have much to teach. Everyone can be a sort of lesson. School in some ways makes me sick.

I think school could be super cool but so much of it is caked in crap still. I think it will improve and then it wont be this elitist etc sort of thing anymore.



sravaka -> RE: Is Education Overrated? (4/8/2009 7:08:19 PM)

quote:

Sravaka, I've been involved in situations before where everyone had a "degree", except of course,... the Boss's *Son or Daughter.*
How do we explain that?



er...  nepotism?  I'm not sure what you're asking.

I won't deny that there are massive inequities all over the place, or that a degree is not the be-all and end-all.  But in some circumstances (for example, when you are not the son or daughter of a boss) it can certainly help.  And if you're a nerdy type, there are glorious experiences to be had in college or grad school that can be very hard to duplicate on your own.  That's all.





sravaka -> RE: Is Education Overrated? (4/8/2009 7:51:47 PM)

Hi again, Popeye.  Forgive me if the quoting doesn't come out right.  (It's one of those things that college doesn't teach.  :-)  )

quote:

As I've said before this economy really doesn't need 60% of high school grads to be going on to college or uni.
If they had their way 100% of high school grads would go onto college or unis, like it or not.


I totally agree with this.  I think where it comes from, though, at least partly, is the total failure of the K-12 public school system in the US.  Kids graduate from high school still unable to read, write, think straight, do basic math.  Then it falls to colleges to do the remedial work with them.  And that in turn reduces the quality of the experience for those who do in fact need a degree for some reason.  If high schools did what they were supposed to do, college would very often be unnecessary.

quote:

Colleges and unis unlike the rest of society really haven't changed their business model to reflect this new economy like the rest of society has.  They keep graduating people with degrees who end up in jobs that really don't require a degree.
As I've said before, fully half of the waiters and waitresses who serve me when I go out to eat have degrees in sociology, psychology, political science, and now even bus. admin!
The jobs for those people in the fields they studied *simply do not exist.* That's the cold, hard reality that colleges and unis should acknowledge and deal with but they don't. What possable sense does it make to get a degree in something that you'll never be able to make a living at while putting yourself in upwards of $100k in debt?


Forgive me, but how is this the fault of colleges and universities?  It's the responsibility of the student/consumer to figure out in advance if investing in college is going to be useful or not.  If there is blame to be placed anywhere it would be with the companies who require secretaries et al. to have degrees.  On the other hand, companies tend by and large to be rationally self-interested, and perhaps the fact that they seek degree holders as opposed to cheaper labor means something?  (if only what i said above, that high school alone tends not to get the job done.)

quote:


As for "better schools" I think that's a fallacy that one college or uni is "better" than another. All schools are certified and accredited by their state board of education. If we numbered schools instead of named them it wouldn't make any differance would it? Harvard could be "school number 341," and Providence College "school number 432".
That "Ivy League" B.S. is just that,...B.S. It's a stereotype.


It certainly can be no more than a stereotype.  There are numerous "elite" schools where the undergrads have almost no access to professors, are taught largely by TAs.  Again, I think it's a case of caveat emptor.  Don't be stupid enough to waste money on such a situation if there is nothing to be gained from it.

But there is in fact something to be gained.  It's really fucking hard to get into Harvard, or Yale, or Princeton, and accomplishing that very often means that you worked your ass off and learned what you were there to learn in h.s., and then some. (Unless of course you are the grandson of a nazi-sympathizer who made enormous contributions to the school, in which case they let you in as a "legacy.")  PC is a very good school too, but you don't need to have worked nearly as hard to get in.  And in the end, that makes a difference in terms of the people you end up being around for the four years you spend in college.  The "better" the school, the more insanely driven the student body tends to be, and these are great people to network with for the rest of your professional life. 

In terms of the supposed quality of the professors too....   the academic job market is a complicated and deeply fucked-up thing, but as a rule the best people want to be where the working conditions are best-- in terms of research money, good libraries, good students who actually do the work, and excellent (smart/productive) colleagues.  There will inevitably end up being a higher concentration of professors with their wits about them at so-called "better" schools than at Bum-fuck U.  But at the same time there will also be wonderful, caring, dedicated professors at Bum-fuck U. who can and do make a genuine difference in their students' future trajectories, and prima donna assholes who don't see actual education as part of their jobs at the "better" schools.  Again:  the onus is on the student/consumer to know what he/she is getting into and to make choices intelligently.

I agree with you absolutely that the higher education system here is greatly in need of reform.  But it's never going to come from the colleges/universities themselves.  Why should it?  They have a vested interest in perpetuating the existing systems.  Place the blame rather on 1) K-12 education, 2) employers and 3) people who drink the "I need a degree just because" kool-aid.





4u2spoil -> RE: Is Education Overrated? (4/9/2009 1:30:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sravaka

I totally agree with this.  I think where it comes from, though, at least partly, is the total failure of the K-12 public school system in the US.  Kids graduate from high school still unable to read, write, think straight, do basic math.  Then it falls to colleges to do the remedial work with them.  And that in turn reduces the quality of the experience for those who do in fact need a degree for some reason.  If high schools did what they were supposed to do, college would very often be unnecessary.


This was my experience. I went to a college prep high school, and went into my first year of university with some credits out of the way (AP courses/tests), pretty strong test scores and an internship related to my major under my belt. The first 2 years felt like an episode of the Twilight Zone: different people, same courses I'd had (and passed) years ago. I finally got a few classes related to my major and wondered when they were going to get to the parts that could actually teach me more about the things I was already doing and wanted to do in the future. Never happened in college for me.



Crush -> RE: Is Education Overrated? (4/9/2009 5:45:59 AM)

One other reason that college degrees are so popular is because so many people who get through public schools have no real education.  They are sorely deficient in the 'basics' that universities, including my own, have special programs to teach them how to do simple math and basic writing. 

They know all about "going green" by turning their lights out, but can't mix water and dirt to get mud.

And of course, during a depression/recession, college is a safe place to hang out until the job market changes



MrRodgers -> RE: Is Education Overrated? (4/9/2009 6:48:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 4u2spoil


There's a different type of education, and it often comes from just doing something. You always hear about the billionaire dropouts, but no one ever focuses on the fact that just because those people left college doesn't mean they stopped learning. I'm sure Bill Gates and Michael Dell went through more hours than any college degree would have required while they were working on their projects. The fact that those hours weren't in a classroom doesn't make them any less valuable. Actually, the fact that those hours came without getting tied down to some lifelong debt probably makes them more valuable.

I honestly don't know what kind of education Dell has but Gates is not a good role model for much of anything except maybe giving away billions of his paper wealth attained thanks to others. He literally just got lucky...very lucky. Gates has failed impromptu tests on computers and software, never wrote ANY software that has made it the marketplace including DOS and its original basis for windows and never sold DOS or windows in his own right.

When IBM made what is very likely to go down in business history...as the worst business decision of the 20th century...licensed DOS and Windows instead of first writing their own software...Gates WON the lottery of life.

Gates actually licensed this software to IBM before he even owned it. He was in negoitation for and bought DOS from another company, while in negotiation with IBM. IBM was in such a hurry to come out with something to compete with Apple, they lost their head and now are completely OUT of the PC business...a business that they themselves created. 

As for education being overated...it depends on the education. If it is to be a doctor or lawyer...NO !! Certain schools like Ivy league or say Wharton School of Business grads...no. Those with the highest grades get very good starting salaries right out of school.

If it is to be in any job that can be farmed out of this country or any job where a cheaper foreign degree holder can be brought in...yes.

Craig's List want ad: Part-time (approx. 20 hrs/week) clerical worker, BA/BS required. Starts at $9/hr. NO !!



DeathinRevelry -> RE: Is Education Overrated? (4/9/2009 12:44:23 PM)

I do think that education has been sold as the "golden ticket" for a long time now, as it's easier for schools to simply encourage everyone to get on the college track rather than take the time to find out who should and should not progress in their education. One of the first things I did when registering for high school was to sit down with a guidance counselor and decide whether I was going to attend college or not, as that would determine which classes I signed up for. A friend's daughter just enrolled in high school, and while she met with a guidance counselor, they spent more time discussing self-esteem and social issues than future professional plans.
 
I do feel that a sizeable portion of the blame lies within the public school system as well. We have ceased to demand the workload from students that we once did, and when you take social promotion into account, it's no wonder that kids go from high school to college without the ability to read, write, or do more than very basic math. When my parents went to high school, in rural Mississippi and a small town in Washington, they were taught Latin, debate, and a number of real world skills as well, from sewing to cooking to automotive repair. My father may hold a degree, but he can check the oil and cook dinner as well, and my mother, who didn't go on to college, can still conjugate Latin verbs and hold one of the most interesting discussions on politics throughout history that I've ever heard.
 
In some instances, a degree is absolutely necessary- or rather, the education that one gets on the road to that degree is. My son wants to be an astronomer, and while I can take him out to stargaze, read and discuss books about the subject with him, at a certain level, he needs someone who is fully trained to take over. Not to mention, students at universities can gain access to instruments that simply would not be available to them in the public sector- large-scale telescopes in my son's case, any number of medical instruments (and bodies for dissection) for medical students, advanced computer systems for computer technicians, etc. So for those that will have need of specialized instruction in their professional lives, then yes, they have to attend college.
 
In many cases, however, college is not necessary. You're quite correct about the ability to continue learning outside of school. It's something I think far too many adults ignore, the ability to keep reading and self-teaching even when we leave school, and I can't help but feel that it has contributed to the overall "dumbing down" of our current society. Informed, intelligent discussion is difficult to find these days, so we often end up talking about what was on TV last night instead. Don't get me wrong- I like House as much as the other women at my work, but sometimes I want to talk to them about other things- the state of the world, a new discovery that's been made in the sciences, a dig going on in Egypt, random thoughts on philosophical matters, or books that I've read, and far too often, I end up having to have those discussions either online or with my son, as the adults I attempt to engage are either uninterested, uninformed, or both.
 
Unfortunately, I don't see a solution to these problems. Perhaps the first step is simply acknowledging from all sides that something has gone seriously wrong with our school systems in America? If the parents quit blaming the teachers and the teachers quit getting defensive, I have to believe that there's a way we can all pull together and encourage our children to the best individual path for each of them.
 
(Wow, talk about a book! Sorry to run on so long, but this is a subject I feel pretty passionately about, and I love that this discussion was opened here)



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