RE: Columbine....10 years after. (Full Version)

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jlf1961 -> RE: Columbine....10 years after. (4/10/2009 11:14:56 AM)

What I think is being missed is the simple fact that if someone wants to kill someone or a group of people, they will find a way.

In the last 20 years genocide has been committed in African countries, mostly with machetes, axes, knives, clubs and just about anything available.

Another point is that if anyone wanted to get a gun, it is easy to do so.  The problem wont be solved by eliminating guns, other countries have discovered that flawed philosophy, but in actually creating gun control laws that actually work.

It would be easy to fire each and every fire arm imported or manufactured in the United States to get both rifling and pin marks to create a database of ALL new firearms.  With that kind of database, every firearm legally imported or bought in the states can be traced.

'Lost' or stolen firearms would be able to be traced back to the person that purchased them, and if they had not been reported, the owner of record should be held responsible, at least in civil court if not criminal court.

Someone who purchases a weapon for someone else and that weapon is used in a crime, then the purchaser should be held accountable as well.

Gun ownership requires responsibility.




kittinSol -> RE: Columbine....10 years after. (4/10/2009 11:21:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Gun ownership requires responsibility.



And dozens of thousands of people die each year from gun shot wounds in America, but it's completely independent from the country's love of firearms and irresponsible attitude towards them.




jlf1961 -> RE: Columbine....10 years after. (4/10/2009 11:49:13 AM)

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir-crime-murders-with-firearms

Check out the actual rates, by country, the United States is a distant fourth with 9369 gun related deaths.

South Africa leads the world with 31,918, followed by Columbia and Thailand.

By the way, Thailand has some laws on the books that basically makes owning an illegal weapon punishable by death.

By contrast, in Switzerland where EVERY male over the age of 18 is REQUIRED by law to own an assault rifle, where the total gun related deaths hit a whopping 68 people.

Basically proving the point that it is people, not guns who are to blame.

However, if you wish to blame guns or the availability guns for the problem, go right ahead.




ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Columbine....10 years after. (4/10/2009 12:46:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife


Now that you've said all that, what exactly are you proposing?

What is a sensible gun control law and what are the real problems you referred to?




quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Panda ,how does a national law governing or controlling guns somewhat stand up to a lawsuit if you don't ammend the constitution.( by the way I agree wholeheartedly with your prognosis for the chance of that happening in our lifetime...a snowball in hell has a better chance) With that in mind I would echo Rule...just what sort of legislation do you think is a)possible and b) likely to have a positive effect on what is IMO a national disgrace.


I'm not avoiding this, but I'd like to sleep on it. I've been thinking about it all day, and reconsidering my position on a few things. I can offer a few ideas now, but frankly I'd rather wait until tomorrow and put it out there all at once.



I've really been thinking about this quite a bit for the last day or so, and here's my answer. As a starting point for the discussion, I suggest -

1. Mandatory federal licensing for every owner of a handgun, rifle, or shotgun. If you need a license to operate a motor vehicle, why not a firearm?
2. Thorough criminal and mental health background checks by the federal government for all applicants for a firearms license. Much the same as the current background check for handgun puchases, but now applied to all license applicants.
3. Completion of firearms safety class as a prerequisite for firearms license. Much the same as is currently required for concel/carry permit.
4. Registration of every handgun, rifle, or shotgun.
5. Sale of any firearm by a private party to be registered with federal government, along with affidavit attesting that seller viewed the purchaser's firearms license. Not much different than transferring title on an automobile. There'll still be cases where purchasers may forge a license, or use an expired or otherwise invalid license (the same as you often have happen with automobile sales between private parties), but there's nothing to be done about that. You're just going to have to accept that some will slip through the cracks.
6. Ballistics testing of every firearm before it leaves the factory, with the results stored in a database and keyed to the serial number. Again, it's possible to get around this by swapping out barrels and firing mechanisms, but most criminals don't have  the knowhow or the initiative to do this, and for those who do, well - like I said, a certain percentage will always slip through the cracks. But the point is, every firearm will be linked to a licensed firearm owner, and if that firearm is used in a crime by someone other than the owner the owner is going to have to explain how they got ahold of the weapon. The same as if someone borrows my car and runs over a little old lady. I'm the owner of that car, I'm accountable for what it does. It would be the same with a firearm. If someone gets shot with a gun that's registered to me, I need to be able to explain how that happened. If the gun was stolen, I'm obligated to report it in a timely fashion.

OK. That ought to stir things up a bit. I know I'm reversing myself on some things, and there are certainly some aspects of this that I'm not at all comfortable with, but I recognize that gunowners are going to have to make some serious compromises at some point and this is a set of regulations I could live with.

As I said, it's a starting point for a discussion, and I know that there are weaknesses to it. For example, ballistics testing on shotguns is effective only if you can retrieve a shell casing, and matching rounds from a handgun or rifle to a specific barrel is not always reliable. So I wouldn't advocate that ballistics testing alone would be sufficient to make the registered owner of a firearm criminally liable for a crime comitted with his gun; the usefullness would simply be that if you know who the registered owner is, you know what door to knock on first. Much like a car that's been involved in a hit and run. I'm sure I missed some other major flaws in this proposal, but I'm equally certain someone will be happy to point them out to me. So flame away.





DarkFury -> RE: Columbine....10 years after. (4/10/2009 2:39:01 PM)

You've made some good points Panda. I do like that idea of mandatory licensing of all firearm holders and potential owners, along with a thorough education and usage of firearms from the lowly handgun to the more powerful assault rifles which seem to be so popular.

I do have to say that I am iffy regarding a national firearm registration mainly since the Canadian government implemented such an act several years ago and it has turned into a multi million dollar fiasco. The intentions were good having this yet the problem arose with the various hunting associations and a large portion of gun owners refusing to register the guns and rifles they have owned. Many have the same attitude as many Americans that why should we have to register our guns as they felt it was a violation of their personal rights and liberties. My thought is instead of thinking it is a violation of rights, it is also a protective measure to ensure that a legally owned firearm isn't finding it's way into the wrong hands. Granted that philosophy is flawed yet at this time, there isn't a better solution to solving the killing of people from the misuse of firearms.
   I still have to wonder if part of the solution is for the manufacturers to stop manufacturing as many firearms and put their efforts more towards other areas?




Crush -> RE: Columbine....10 years after. (4/10/2009 2:54:37 PM)

The problem is not firearms. 
It isn't the people who own handguns that are the problem.  Even with the recent incidents, the percentage of misused guns does not even come close to 1/100 of 1% of the firearms that people own.
Licensing solves nothing and just creates a database of gun owners and added costs to law abiding citizens.
Registration of 'firing pin markings' and such fail...New York's attempt fails by its own admission.
Yes, the recent incidents are horrible.  And yes, gun owners are horrified as well...and angered too.

It isn't a love affair with "guns" but with the freedom that the represent, including the freedom, and the duty, to keep an eye on government.

Read some of Thomas Jefferson's quotes:  http://jpetrie.myweb.uga.edu/TJ.html   He says it much better than I could ever say it.




StrangerThan -> RE: Columbine....10 years after. (4/10/2009 5:01:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Gun ownership requires responsibility.



And dozens of thousands of people die each year from gun shot wounds in America, but it's completely independent from the country's love of firearms and irresponsible attitude towards them.


So what do you consider responsible kitten? Locking the weapon behind an iron grill? Hiding it where it can never be found? Maybe separating the firearm from the ammunition in such a way that one needs keys to both and neither are in the same room? Same house?

What?

I know what I consider responsible. I was taught about guns before I could read. My education, if you want an offical launch date, probably began at Thanksgiving when I was four. Though that wouldn't actually be true as there was plenty of discussion and handling of them before then. But at 4 is when I fired my first. It was a 12 gauge shotgun and it hurt like hell.

My first hunting trip occurred shortly after that, though again, that's something of a misdirection as my uncle and I never killed anything. We just went, up on the mountains, down the ridges, spent the day wandering, talking, him smoking, me toting a gun and him watching me every step. Sooner or later we'd find some sapling or beer can someone had left and use it for target practice. I shot my fair share of young trees and killed lots of budweiser cans. When it actually came to killing, I had to wait to do that on my own.

Somewhere around 7, the kid next door comes out during a neighborhood cops and robbers thing, hands me a shotgun and says, here use this - like a play gun. I knew enough by then to break it down, unload it, and take it to an adult. My parents bought me my first gun on my 10th Christmas and had no problem with me hunting alone with it. Yes, no adult supervision and you know what? I didn't need any. I never killed anything I didn't intend to kill and never shot anything I didn't intend to shoot - including people. I hunted, brought back stuff to my grandmothers. We ate it.

I made my ums learn to shoot and handle weapons, not because they wanted to. They didn't. But because they were going to grow up in a world with them where the lack of knowledge was, in my view, dangerous and just plain stupid. Both can handle just about any type of firearm made, though honestly, one is better than the other.

What I find incredibly irresponsible is making the vampire cross sign at the mention of them, refusing to learn how to use them, treating them like some taboo candy up on top of a shelf or behind a locked case for young ones to learn on their own - cause many of them will. It is insane to me that in this society we'll spout the same rote lines about strangers with candy and looking both ways on a street, but not teach responsible behavior with weapons. I find people who run around wanting bans, restrictions, who want to tighten the noose on ownership when the VAST majority of legal gun owners in this country use them responsibly, to be, well, rather idiotic.

I find an author who spouts tripe about sniper rifles in his editorial to be one of those who sounds rather idiotic because just about any hunting rifle can be used as such. It's a fear tactic that's fearsome to those who fear too many things in the first place.  

And I find a huge part of the debate to be more specifically about the avoidance of responsibilty because it should be every parent's duty.




barelynangel -> RE: Columbine....10 years after. (4/10/2009 5:45:40 PM)

I am not sure if people know this but Diane Sawyer on ABC hosting something called "If i only had a gun.," tonight. She is going through from what i saw in the commercial about how if people needed to use a gun in a situation if they actually could.

Just thought i would pass this on for anyone who may be interested. I don't know the particulars but its ABC with Diane Sawyer tonight i believe 9 central.

angel




kittinSol -> RE: Columbine....10 years after. (4/10/2009 7:50:32 PM)

The gun show loophole: that's irresponsible. Have you heard of it? In thirty three states in this country, any bozo can go to a gun show and buy as many guns as they like - no questions asked, no background check, nothing. Does this strike you as reasonable or sane?




slvemike4u -> RE: Columbine....10 years after. (4/10/2009 8:45:32 PM)

Nope.....not even close to reasonable or sane,not even close.




ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Columbine....10 years after. (4/10/2009 8:57:40 PM)

I think you guys are making too much of the gun show loophole. It comprises only a small percentage of the gun sales at gun shows, and it's really no different than someone advertising his guns in the Sunday paper and selling them to someone who comes over to his house to buy them. It's just one private party selling guns to another private party, which is perfectly legal in every state of the Union. I don't see anyone railing  against the selling of firearms in the Sunday classifieds, and I'd be willing to bet a lot more guns change hands in this country by that avenue than by private sellers at gun shows. Anti-gun folks have managed to whip it into a suitably inspiring rally cry, but I see it as a red herring.  




slvemike4u -> RE: Columbine....10 years after. (4/10/2009 9:09:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

I think you guys are making too much of the gun show loophole. It comprises only a small percentage of the gun sales at gun shows, and it's really no different than someone advertising his guns in the Sunday paper and selling them to someone who comes over to his house to buy them. It's just one private party selling guns to another private party, which is perfectly legal in every state of the Union. I don't see anyone railing  against the selling of firearms in the Sunday classifieds, and I'd be willing to bet a lot more guns change hands in this country by that avenue than by private sellers at gun shows. Anti-gun folks have managed to whip it into a suitably inspiring rally cry, but I see it as a red herring.  
No Panda it isn't the same thing,on the one hand one private party selling to another is ,as you say a private transaction....from start to finish.On the other hand gun shows move significant numbers of guns with absolutely no oversight at all.Dealers attend these shows,not just the odd enthusiast and a collecter or two.Often the gun show is just the first step in a torturous process that see's the gun moving from hand to hand till finally inexoribly it finds it's final repository in some Police Evidence locker...with a little tag on in denoting which case it is attached too.
p.s. just walked in from being out,I want to look at your earlier post....I'll get back to you on that.




piratecommander -> RE: Columbine....10 years after. (4/10/2009 9:26:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

This is a deeply paranoid society,



It comes over loud and clear too.

Pirate




slvemike4u -> RE: Columbine....10 years after. (4/10/2009 9:30:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: piratecommander

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

This is a deeply paranoid society,



It comes over loud and clear too.

Pirate

A divided and polarised society yes....paranoid no.




ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Columbine....10 years after. (4/10/2009 9:33:49 PM)

quote:

No Panda it isn't the same thing,on the one hand one private party selling to another is ,as you say a private transaction....from start to finish.On the other hand gun shows move significant numbers of guns with absolutely no oversight at all.Dealers attend these shows,not just the odd enthusiast and a collecter or two.Often the gun show is just the first step in a torturous process that see's the gun moving from hand to hand till finally inexoribly it finds it's final repository in some Police Evidence locker...with a little tag on in denoting which case it is attached too.


Not according to the Department of Justice. According to their studies, only 2% of criminals who used a gun in a crime got that gun from a gun show. It's a drop in  the bucket, and to focus on that is to miss the larger issues. If you have evidence to support your suggestion that a significant number of guns sold through the gun show loophole wind up being used to commit crimes, I'd like to see it.

And I maintain that the so-called gun show loophole is absolutely no different at all from someone selling their guns through the newspaper or the bulletin board at the local grocery store. I don't know where you're getting your information from about significant numbers of guns being moved at gun shows with no oversight at all, because it's just plain wrong. The term "gun-show loophole" refers specifically to private parties selling their guns at gun shows without having to conduct the same background checks or follow the same procedures that licensed dealers do at gun shows, and licensed dealers at gun shows must follow the exact same procedures at gun shows that they do in their stores. The vast majority of guns sold at gun shows are sold by licensed dealers following the same regulations they follow in their stores, and the relatively few private parties who sell their weapons at gun shows do nothing any differently than if they'd sold the guns in their own living room, except they're doing it at a gun show instead of in their living room. Closing the so-called loophole would have no appreciable effect whatsoever on private gun sales, because all the two parties would have to do is go out in the parking lot of the gun show and do their transaction there. And it would be completely, 100% legal. You guys are really barking up the wrong tree with this one, and missing the larger issue - the overall ease with which private parties transfer weapons between themselves.




hlen5 -> RE: Columbine....10 years after. (4/10/2009 9:44:31 PM)

I'm not paranoid but I do enjoy target shooting with my handgun. When my family had property in Minnesota, we would target shoot out in the meadow with a variety of guns. I loved the fact I shot better than my brother but Mom usually did better than both of us. She shot better than Dad, too.

At one time I was bonded to carry a firearm. I know how to use it and am responsible.

I think an answer to reducing gun violence is just enforcing the existing laws.




slvemike4u -> RE: Columbine....10 years after. (4/10/2009 9:48:18 PM)

Panda,you usually do impeccable research....but it would seem you dropped the ball here.May I aske where you got yhe 2% number?Perhaps wikipedia,which quoted a Justice Dept Survey of 3,959 prisoners 2 % stated they obtained their guns at a gun show.So far so good....scroll down further and you find some information about ATF numbers.....


From 2004 to 2006, ATF conducted operations at 195 gun shows (approximately 2% of all shows). Specific targeting of suspected individuals (77%) resulted in 121 individual arrests and 5,345 firearms seizures. Seventy nine of the 121 ATF operation plans were known suspects previously under investigation. [2]
Additionally, ATF Field Offices report that:
  • Between 2002 and 2005, more than 400 guns legally purchased at gun shows from licensed dealers in the city of Richmond, Virginia, were later recovered in connection with criminal activity. Bouchard notes that, "These figures do not take into account firearms that may have been sold at Richmond area gun shows by unlicensed sellers, as these transactions are more difficult to track."[1]
  • The Department of Justice reports, "after reviewing hundreds of trace reports associated with guns used in crime recovered in the [New Orleans] area and interviewing known gang members and other criminals, ATF Special Agents identified area gun shows as a source used by local gang members and other criminals to obtain guns."[2]
  • In 2003 and 2004, the San Francisco ATF Field Division conducted six general operations at Reno, Nevada, guns shows to investigate interstate firearms trafficking. During these operations, "agents purchased firearms and identified violations related to "off paper" sales, sales to out-of-state residents, and dealing in firearms without a license." The "ATF seized or purchased 400 firearms before making arrests and executing search warrants, which resulted in the seizure of an additional 600 firearms and the recovery of explosives."[2]
  • ATF's Columbus Field Division conducted its anti-trafficking operations based on intelligence from Cleveland police that "many of the guns recovered in high-crime areas of the city had been purchased at local gun shows." Subsequent gun show sting operations resulted in the seizure of "5 guns, one indictment, and two pending indictments for felony possession of a firearm." The state of Ohio is one of the top ten source states for recovered guns used in crime.[2]
  • The ATF's Phoenix Field Division reported that "many gun shows attracted large numbers of gang members from Mexico and California. They often bought large quantities of assault weapons and smuggled them into Mexico or transported them to California."[2] Mexican police claim that 100%[citation needed] of guns used in "drug-related killings" in Mexico, which has strict gun laws, are smuggled from the United States, often from gun shows in the Southwest.[citation needed] Garen Wintemute, a professor at the University of California at Davis, calls Arizona and Texas a "gunrunner's paradise."[18




Slightly more troubling than your 2 % number.......




GentlemanAxel -> The "Loophole" Fallacy (4/10/2009 10:30:04 PM)

Thought I'd chime in, another long time marksman and firearms appreciator.

I'm guessing that a lot of folks have never actually been to a gun show.  Or been to one in the role of a vendor as opposed to a buyer.  There's been a lot of squawking (not just on the board here) about how one can go into a gun show and come out with enough guns to make Arnold Schwarzenegger look naked.  About how there's no discretion and no oversight.  Capitalism at its most ruthless with a horrific product.

It can all be summed up in one word: crap.

Yes, it is theoretically possible to walk into a gun show and come out significantly better armed than when you came in.  However, what folks don't seem to notice or don't care to admit is that just because you can do something does not guarantee or even strongly suggest that it will happen.  The guys making private sales are not ruthless profiteers.  They're not trying to make a killing "Lord of War"-style to support some extravagant lifestyle.  They're more than likely the neighbor down the street a few doors who needs to raise a little extra cash and isn't willing to part with their grandfather's WWI vintage shotgun just yet.  They're the guy who's found out that he prefers the lighter loads of a 9mm to the big bore Colt Python he bought when his then girlfriend thought Dirty Harry was so studly.  They're the folks who have talked to all of their friends and relatives who shoot, and maybe a few who don't, and they can't clean out the closet enough to make their spouses happy.  All of this being said, they're also not about to just let a piece go to the first schmuck who puts cash down on the table.  The generally unwritten rule at a gun show, no matter what the vendor, is "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone." 

Are there vendors who are crooked as hell?  Sure.  Are there vendors who manage to make an absolutely horrendous misjudgment of the character of a potential buyer?  Sure.  But they're also fairly rare.  Once word gets out that a vendor is crooked, that he knowingly sells what he shouldn't when he shouldn't to whom he shouldn't, he's pretty much toast.  At best, he'll piss away weekends at $100 a pop (space costs have gone up somewhat, and that's also figuring in gas, food, and electricity costs) with nothing to show for his labors.  At worst, he'll get busted by the cops and never show up again.  As for the vendors who sell to somebody who later goes on a rampage, incredibly tragic, but no less so than somebody at a pharmacy selling razor blades or OTC sleep meds to somebody who's suicidal, a car salesman selling a vehicle to a human smuggler, or a clerk in a hardware store selling an axe to somebody who goes home and chops up his family.  As long as human beings are involved, there will always be the potential for tragedy in what should be an innocuous transaction.

As to the arguments for registration and national databases and what not, I would point you towards the TSA and the "no fly" list as a perfect example of why such a scheme is inherently flawed.  You have a government entity which holds unchecked power against 300 million Americans, and the other 6.2 billion people on the planet, to detain and interrogate at will simply because some people happen to have their name on a list.  Not because the individuals in question have actually done anything, or are even reasonably suspected of doing something, only because their name happens to be similar to another individual's.  The "no fly" list creates a broad class of suspects for no good reason.  A gun ownership list would do precisely the same thing, to create a permanent class of people automatically assumed to be suspects for no good reason.  Such a database cannot possibly be used responsibly by any government agency.  The temptation for venality and abuse would be overwhelming.  After all, if bureaucrats can't keep the distinction between John Smith the Surburbanite and John Smith the Bloody Handed Terrorist straight, what hope do they have with gun owners who've never committed a crime?

The comparison of gun registration to motor vehicle registration is likewise a fallacy.  Motor vehicles have the potential to engage in intrastate, interstate, or even international commerce depending on geographic location and logistical capabilities.  Regulation of commerce, customs issues, weights and measurements, all of these are of legitimate interest to the government at local, state, and national levels, and the use of motor vehicles whether for private transportation or commerical shipping touch on these areas in one form or another.  The fact that you can also use motor vehicles to cause lethal damage to multiple human beings is purely incidental to their generally accepted purpose.

Lastly, an observation.  Several years ago, Britain enacted laws which effectively outlawed private firearms ownership.  The result?  Crime went up.  In particular, the use of knives in assaults and robberies went up.  Not all that long ago, Britain enacted laws which rather heavily regulate what knives Britons may own and use.  The result?  Knife crimes have been going up.  If you start seeing laws regarding rocks and pointy sticks showing up in the House of Commons, I think it'll be past time somebody demands something resembling sanity.




ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Columbine....10 years after. (4/10/2009 10:32:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Panda,you usually do impeccable research....but it wuld seem you dropped the ball here.May I aske where you got yhe 2% number?Perhaps wikipedia,which quoted a Justice Dept Survey of 3,959 prisoners 2 % stated they obtained their guns at a gun show.So far so good....scroll down further and you find some information about ATF numbers.....


No, I got it from the Department of Justice's website. But I'm looking at that Wiki article now...



quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u
From 2004 to 2006, ATF conducted operations at 195 gun shows (approximately 2% of all shows). Specific targeting of suspected individuals (77%) resulted in 121 individual arrests and 5,345 firearms seizures. Seventy nine of the 121 ATF operation plans were known suspects previously under investigation. [2]
Additionally, ATF Field Offices report that:
  • Between 2002 and 2005, more than 400 guns legally purchased at gun shows from licensed dealers in the city of Richmond, Virginia, were later recovered in connection with criminal activity. Bouchard notes that, "These figures do not take into account firearms that may have been sold at Richmond area gun shows by unlicensed sellers, as these transactions are more difficult to track."[1]
  • The Department of Justice reports, "after reviewing hundreds of trace reports associated with guns used in crime recovered in the [New Orleans] area and interviewing known gang members and other criminals, ATF Special Agents identified area gun shows as a source used by local gang members and other criminals to obtain guns."[2]
  • In 2003 and 2004, the San Francisco ATF Field Division conducted six general operations at Reno, Nevada, guns shows to investigate interstate firearms trafficking. During these operations, "agents purchased firearms and identified violations related to "off paper" sales, sales to out-of-state residents, and dealing in firearms without a license." The "ATF seized or purchased 400 firearms before making arrests and executing search warrants, which resulted in the seizure of an additional 600 firearms and the recovery of explosives."[2]
  • ATF's Columbus Field Division conducted its anti-trafficking operations based on intelligence from Cleveland police that "many of the guns recovered in high-crime areas of the city had been purchased at local gun shows." Subsequent gun show sting operations resulted in the seizure of "5 guns, one indictment, and two pending indictments for felony possession of a firearm." The state of Ohio is one of the top ten source states for recovered guns used in crime.[2]
  • The ATF's Phoenix Field Division reported that "many gun shows attracted large numbers of gang members from Mexico and California. They often bought large quantities of assault weapons and smuggled them into Mexico or transported them to California."[2] Mexican police claim that 100%[citation needed] of guns used in "drug-related killings" in Mexico, which has strict gun laws, are smuggled from the United States, often from gun shows in the Southwest.[citation needed] Garen Wintemute, a professor at the University of California at Davis, calls Arizona and Texas a "gunrunner's paradise."[18

Slightly more troubling than your 2 % number.......


Well, yes and no. Several hundred guns being sold illegally is certainly troubling on the face of it, but when you consider that a couple of thousand illegal guns is really only a tiny percentage of the number of illegal guns we already know are out there, it's not exactly something that comes as any shock to me. Not to mention, the bulk of what you quoted doesn't have anything at all to do with the gun show loophole. I'm starting to think that you're unintentionally conflating "gun shows" and the "gun show loophole." Of the 5 bullet-pointed cites you quoted, only 1 (the 3rd) even comes close to referring to the gun show loophole, and even that isn't a direct reference. Another 1 (the 1st) specifically refers to sales by licensed dealers, so that has nothing at all to do with the gun show loophole, and the other 3 simply refer to gun shows in general.

Maybe we should clarify what we're talking about here. I thought we were talking about the gun show loophole. Are we talking about gun shows in general - all gun shows?




slvemike4u -> RE: Columbine....10 years after. (4/10/2009 11:05:34 PM)

Well to be clear Panda what I am talking about,what I have been talking about all along is any venue where guns are sold with no regulation or oversight.Where the NICBS is not used,where vendors can set up a folding table and sell guns to anyone they please.Now I know the loophole actually refers to "private sellers...or persons who sell only occasional guns(seems a strange and arbitrary phrase,what is an occasional seller).
  They eviscerate any value a sister state is likely to see from controlling the sales of firearms within their own state borders.What good does New York's stringent regulation do the citizens of New York when Joe blow can go down to Virginia and walk into a gun show with his cousin (a Virginian resident) and they can walk out with a couple of handguns?
For that matter they can just go to a gun shop...but at least now Joe Blows cousin better have a clean record...and the gun can be traced...the result being that particular "pipeline" is closed down

On a related matter,would you care to comment on how someone qualifies /obtains a Federal Firearms License.




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