RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons

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RealityLicks -> RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons (4/12/2009 4:19:46 PM)
I think it's reasonable to pursue the notion of gun control of some kind in order to reduce the number of these incidents. I'm not clear on why a poster is being pilloried for suggesting such controls - he doesn't preclude analysis of, or action to counter, the presumed underlying malaise that causes them. The reason guns are usually used may well go beyond the merely practical. I live in boring old England, so you'll have to tell me whether or not Walmart has started stocking pipe bombs. But if you took all the film footage of angry, sexy people - and I'm seeing Pam Grier in my head but choose your own fantasy - righteously popping caps and joined it all together it would probably circle the solar system. As a culture, we fetishize bombs, too. But those immense fireballs and mushroom clouds? Not easy to achieve, I'd have thought. Not with the stuff you can get from Walmart, anyway. Prediction: no trend towards pipe bombs - they're for a horse of a different colour. Speaking of colour, why do these killers (I dislike the term "muckers" and it's already overused) often favour dressing in black combats? Would a killer of say, Popeye's generation go postal dressed as Clint Eastwood circa "Rawhide"? (No 'fense, Pops.) I say, keep your guns, but only if you all go back to flintlocks and matchlocks. Then those who want to can prove their rugged individualism by challenging those that offend them to duels at dawn. But then, that's where I came in.

painpup -> RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons (4/12/2009 4:35:39 PM)
I think generations have something to do with it like i was reading today GA_googleFillSlot("WND_NWS_C0100"); [link=http://media.fastclick.net/w/click.here?sid=46722&m=1&c=7733][/link] 915558335 [image]http://wnd.com/images/header_exclusive.gif[/image] INTERNET NEWS YouTube community tells kid to kill himself Christian 12-year-old slammed for posting views on homosexuality where have we all gone maybe it like the bumper sticker Mean people Suck my 2cents for today I don't mean to get off topic but it on you tube easy to find judge it Yourselfs

samboct -> RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons (4/12/2009 4:48:12 PM)
Mike I said my car analogy was silly. Want me to make it less so and a lot more specific? Fine- let's look at road rage. Enraged drivers use their vehicles as a weapon to kill other drivers/passengers. Road rage drivers are a relative handful of the total population of drivers -same as muckers (and since I liked Stand on Zanzibar which I think was the first book to coin the term, I'll continue to use it.) with their guns. So why punish the vast majority of gun owners who are civilized people and use their guns for either hunting, killing paper targets, or defensive purposes? Should we punish the vast majority of drivers to prevent road rage? Since we have rejected the alternative of banning cars to prevent road rage, the consequence is that road rage is being studied and we may have some means of reduction. Why wouldn't the same approach work for mucking- if indeed it's actually on the rise? Re the statistics on Germany and crime rates.... An interesting point of view, but perhaps one where the data points don't extend far back enough. If we go back to 1933 for example, I suspect that gun owners can make an excellent argument that the mass murders carried out by Nazi Germany would never have been feasible with an armed populace- it was a relative handful of policemen (less than 1,000 IIRC- I hate getting older...) that carried out the task meeting no resistance. So that's something around 12 million people who could have been saved by gun ownership, versus the 2 million or so excess gun deaths in the US (greater than Germany) from the same period till now. Nobody ever said liberty came cheap.... Sam

slvemike4u -> RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons (4/12/2009 7:57:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: samboct Mike I said my car analogy was silly. Want me to make it less so and a lot more specific? Fine- let's look at road rage. Enraged drivers use their vehicles as a weapon to kill other drivers/passengers. Road rage drivers are a relative handful of the total population of drivers -same as muckers (and since I liked Stand on Zanzibar which I think was the first book to coin the term, I'll continue to use it.) with their guns. So why punish the vast majority of gun owners who are civilized people and use their guns for either hunting, killing paper targets, or defensive purposes? Should we punish the vast majority of drivers to prevent road rage? Since we have rejected the alternative of banning cars to prevent road rage, the consequence is that road rage is being studied and we may have some means of reduction. Why wouldn't the same approach work for mucking- if indeed it's actually on the rise? Re the statistics on Germany and crime rates.... An interesting point of view, but perhaps one where the data points don't extend far back enough. If we go back to 1933 for example, I suspect that gun owners can make an excellent argument that the mass murders carried out by Nazi Germany would never have been feasible with an armed populace- it was a relative handful of policemen (less than 1,000 IIRC- I hate getting older...) that carried out the task meeting no resistance. So that's something around 12 million people who could have been saved by gun ownership, versus the 2 million or so excess gun deaths in the US (greater than Germany) from the same period till now. Nobody ever said liberty came cheap.... Sam Yeah Sam,I apologise for that .in truth I saw the car thing and immediately saw red....do you have any idea how many put that forth as a valid analogy....but all the same I blew that one,so I'm sorry there. Now to your last post ....could someone please explain to me how registering a firearm is a form of punishment...at most we are talking for the truly law abiding an inconveinence.Not a punisment....not by along shot.Now if registering and background checks can forestall one Virginia Tech....is that not worth the hoops the truly law abiding have had to jump thru Did you by chance see the 60 minutes segment on gun shows,did you see the part where they walked thru the parking lot and looked at all the out of state licence plates....or the part where the vote to overturn the "loophole" lost despite the backing of the Police Chief,the Governor and countless others Or perhaps you saw the part where the spokesman for the gun rights lobby in responce to Leslie Stahl's question about requiring every one to go thru a background check.....came back at her ..."how about no one has to have a back ground check". I stepped away from this thread,went out to have dinner....watched some tv...and thought about why it botheres me so much.The thing I came up with is this......this is the conversation the gun lobby wants us to have,the diversion that moves the discussion at all costs from Guns....debate anything but the guns...underlying reasons...too little parental supervision,too much violence on tv....everything is open to debate except the one common denominator in 95.9 % of these incidents....firearms.Hell earlier as a joke I said it just might be the flouride we add to the water....well IMO the gun lobby would be just jim dandy with that conversation,dammit to hell they might even bankroll the clincal study to get to the root of the problem... And what is the gun lobby's motivation....love of guns,respect for an American tradition.....take a look at what Smith and Wesson stock has done since Nov.....while everything else is crashing gun sales are going thru the roof.Their motivation is the same as the bankers and wall street.The only difference is bankers and wall Street types may steal your money and leave you broke...these other merchants of death will facillitate the death of your loved ones and leave you with a broken heart.As long as business is robust...they could give a shit about the body count My rant is over.....and absent some incredible responce that just sets my blood boiling I really have little more to add to this thread.

samboct -> RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons (4/12/2009 8:33:59 PM)
Mike I'm sorry, but the idea of restricting guns has long since past- they're simply too numerous at this point for the process to be worthwhile. In terms of registration I think that basically there's revenue there, which is why it's done- same as speeding tickets. And the dirty little secret of guns- well, they can be fun- as can automobiles- and there most assuredly are people with a straight face that tell us we should never speed- as they go ripping past us on the highway because the bubble gum machine on top gives them immunity. I'm also not sure how big you think the gun industry is, but if only civilian sales are included- then it's probably way smaller than those other merchants of death- the cigarette industry. I'm a lot more upset as to how arms wind up in the hands of children in Africa- but that's a function of federal policy. From my perspective- the problem with bringing up the legality of guns diverts the issue of the thread- why are people going mucking? They're not going mucking because they have a gun- guns don't cause mucking- they're just the first tool that comes to hand- at least to date. Sam

slvemike4u -> RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons (4/12/2009 8:50:11 PM)
Sorry Sam ,to me that just sounds like more diversion...we will have to agree to disagree. One little point here...if at any time during this long contentious discussion I came across as agitated or pissed off, it had nothing to do with personalities it is purely the subject matter that sets my blood aboiuling...if i was rude or condescending in any way(which knowing me I am positive happened on many occasions) I apologise for that

philosophy -> RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons (4/12/2009 9:02:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RealityLicks I think it's reasonable to pursue the notion of gun control of some kind in order to reduce the number of these incidents. I'm not clear on why a poster is being pilloried for suggesting such controls - he doesn't preclude analysis of, or action to counter, the presumed underlying malaise that causes them. ....er....he consistently in this thread has....going so far as to characterise an attempt to make a deeper analysis 'intellectual dishonesty', presumably without a shred of irony.

slvemike4u -> RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons (4/12/2009 9:28:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: philosophy quote: ORIGINAL: RealityLicks I think it's reasonable to pursue the notion of gun control of some kind in order to reduce the number of these incidents. I'm not clear on why a poster is being pilloried for suggesting such controls - he doesn't preclude analysis of, or action to counter, the presumed underlying malaise that causes them. ....er....he consistently in this thread has....going so far as to characterise an attempt to make a deeper analysis 'intellectual dishonesty', presumably without a shred of irony. Philo perhaps you should go back to the beginning of the thread,before you throw such nonsense around.My objection from the beginning was in having that"deeper ananysis"about mass killings using firearms while not discussing fire arms is inherantly dishonest.Nothing you or anyone has said has moved me from that position.And still not a shred of irony. I would like to know just what got your panties in a bunch over the course of this discussion.

popeye1250 -> RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons (4/12/2009 9:36:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u quote: ORIGINAL: painpup I'm sorry when i get excited there's always a lack of punctuations and capializations and yes I also lived in NY city But all i did was offer up a good book to read so read it or not for it does explain alot It explains a lot only if one accepts the authors point of view.There are alternative points of view.....you do realise that don't you? Yes Mike, there are alternative points of view....you do realise that don't you? Mike, you seem like you're in a very fowl mood, have you been into the cooking Sherry?

slvemike4u -> RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons (4/12/2009 9:41:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: philosophy quote: ORIGINAL: RealityLicks I think it's reasonable to pursue the notion of gun control of some kind in order to reduce the number of these incidents. I'm not clear on why a poster is being pilloried for suggesting such controls - he doesn't preclude analysis of, or action to counter, the presumed underlying malaise that causes them. ....er....he consistently in this thread has....going so far as to characterise an attempt to make a deeper analysis 'intellectual dishonesty', presumably without a shred of irony. Okay lets lay this intellectual dishonesty thing out in the open. From wikipedia one of the definitions(in case there are those who don't understand the term,and there appears there are) "The conscious omission of aspects of the truth known or beleived to be relevant in the praticular context" Now excuse me,but if you are going to discuss mass murders,and choose to omit or restric guns from the conversation....then you are most assuredly guilty of intellectual dishonesty.And Philo there is absolutly no irony in that statement.

slvemike4u -> RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons (4/12/2009 9:44:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u quote: ORIGINAL: painpup I'm sorry when i get excited there's always a lack of punctuations and capializations and yes I also lived in NY city But all i did was offer up a good book to read so read it or not for it does explain alot It explains a lot only if one accepts the authors point of view.There are alternative points of view.....you do realise that don't you? Yes Mike, there are alternative points of view....you do realise that don't you? Mike, you seem like you're in a very fowl mood, have you been into the cooking Sherry? Fowl Mood? Popeye...no not me I'm peach kean.Just get ticked off when people try to conduct a conversation while telling you to ignore the most relevant aspect of the fucking conversation. By the way ...the word is foul.No charge for the spelling lesson.

cpK69 -> RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons (4/12/2009 9:54:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: StrangerThan My question is why now, at this point in history, has it become common to read about one incident after another where people reached a breaking point and vented their rage, desperation, hopelessness, whatever emotion you want to call it, upon other segments of the population? I missed this part of the question in my first response. Internet; the activity is not new, just more "advertised" these days. The second part to the question: quote: What drives it? I answered preciously. Kim

slvemike4u -> RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons (4/12/2009 9:55:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: samboct Mike I'm sorry, but the idea of restricting guns has long since past- they're simply too numerous at this point for the process to be worthwhile. In terms of registration I think that basically there's revenue there, which is why it's done- same as speeding tickets. And the dirty little secret of guns- well, they can be fun- as can automobiles- and there most assuredly are people with a straight face that tell us we should never speed- as they go ripping past us on the highway because the bubble gum machine on top gives them immunity. I'm also not sure how big you think the gun industry is, but if only civilian sales are included- then it's probably way smaller than those other merchants of death- the cigarette industry. I'm a lot more upset as to how arms wind up in the hands of children in Africa- but that's a function of federal policy. From my perspective- the problem with bringing up the legality of guns diverts the issue of the thread- why are people going mucking? They're not going mucking because they have a gun- guns don't cause mucking- they're just the first tool that comes to hand- at least to date. Sam "simply too numerous at this point for the process to be worthwhile"Sam do you really beleive that,are you telling me that closing the registration loophole....demanding that every buyer has a background check is not worth the process.Hell stopping one Cho from getting his hands on these weapons equates to 32 lives....not worth the process,what are human lives worth thes days.

slvemike4u -> RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons (4/12/2009 9:58:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cpK69 quote: ORIGINAL: StrangerThan My question is why now, at this point in history, has it become common to read about one incident after another where people reached a breaking point and vented their rage, desperation, hopelessness, whatever emotion you want to call it, upon other segments of the population? I missed this part of the question in my first response. Internet; the activity is not new, just more "advertised" these days. The second part to the question: quote: What drives it? I answered preciously. Kim So before the internet there were no news outlets.....newspapers ,News radio,tv news.News media was not born when you got your first laptop.

cpK69 -> RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons (4/12/2009 10:18:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u So before the internet there were no news outlets.....newspapers ,News radio,tv news.News media was not born when you got your first laptop. Do you disagree that before internet such news was largely limited for many, to only the “news” that happened locally and world levels? The above is what I was going to ask, however, I suspect that our difference in opinion may derive from the following segment of the OP: quote: My question is why now, at this point in history, has it become common to read about one incident after another where people reached a breaking point and vented their rage, desperation, hopelessness, whatever emotion you want to call it, upon other segments of the population? I read that, and did not consider “segments” as necessarily involving multiple killings all at one time, but that one crime, against someone for their involvement of a particular group, would also be considered against a segment. Would that make sense, or did I miss; by a mile. :) Kim

slvemike4u -> RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons (4/12/2009 10:28:30 PM)
Sorry Kim,I think (if I'm understanding you correctly) you missed...took a good healthy cut,but yeah missed by a mile.

cpK69 -> RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons (4/12/2009 10:38:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u Sorry Kim,I think (if I'm understanding you correctly) you missed...took a good healthy cut,but yeah missed by a mile. Hard to work with that, Mike. Kim

slvemike4u -> RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons (4/12/2009 10:46:16 PM)
Nah,you just keep swinging....till the ump says your out ,you take your cuts and try to get ahold of one.

cpK69 -> RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons (4/12/2009 10:56:52 PM)
Looks as though you've got it covered. Kim

slvemike4u -> RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons (4/12/2009 11:02:22 PM)
Not sure if I have anything covered ,I know there are many around who beleive I have covered nothing. LOL it's all just point of view.opinions nothing more.

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