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Forcing to hurt without harming - 1/29/2006 10:19:26 PM

Nendarye

Posts: 147
Joined: 12/23/2005
From: Texas
Status: offline

Ok, rhetorical question for those who enjoy giving pain to their slaves/subs.

Let's say that a slave/sub is a die-hard masochist...absolutly loves, craves, desires, NEEDS pain as part of his/her daily life. The need for this is so deep, and so strong, that it is part of what makes up the personality of this person. The slave/sub meets someone who he/she connects with on all levels except for this one. The Master/Dom who he/she meets, has a bit of sadism in them that leans towards pain, but does not have a deep desire to HURT ( not harm...there is a difference ). The slave/sub knows this, and is choosing to ignore it in the hopes that this person will one day be able to give him/her what he/she needs the most.

My question is:

Is it possible for a Master/Dom who is NOT into heavy pain of this kind to change into one that is? Or is it possible to force this in oneself, if only for a short time to satisfy the slave/sub?

Enquiring minds want to know

_____________________________

" You may be suffering, but you will always suffer with love"

@~~Proud property of Master Michael~~@

Post #: 1

RE: Forcing to hurt without harming - 1/29/2006 10:24:58 PM

perverseangelic

Posts: 2625
Joined: 2/2/2004
From: Davis, Ca
Status: offline

I believe it is, and based on my experience I've been proven correct.

My owner isn't a sadist. Before he met me he had zero drive to hurt a girl, or to tie her up and beat her till she had bruises.

When we began dating, I tried to be as clear as I could about who I am and what turns me on. There hvae been a LOT of misscomunications along the way, but now, he gets downright pleasure out of hurting me.

I don't think it's that he likes to -hurt-. Rather, he sees how turned on pain makes me, and loves to turn me on like that. That is a kind of control he enjoys exerting most. No matter how little interest I may have, a spanking has me ready to go.

So yes, I think it's possible for one who isn't sadistic to learn to enjoy to inflict pain, and to be able to inflict pain in a way that makes a masochist feel good, -and- do so without catering to the masochist.

_____________________________

~in the begining it is always dark~

(in reply to Nendarye)

Post #: 2

RE: Forcing to hurt without harming - 1/29/2006 10:41:38 PM

Padriag

Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nendarye

Is it possible for a Master/Dom who is NOT into heavy pain of this kind to change into one that is? Or is it possible to force this in oneself, if only for a short time to satisfy the slave/sub?

Its possible but I think any submissive who goes into a relationship hoping or believing that will happen is setting themselves up for disappointment. Some may change, but some will not. Some may adapt to a degree, but it might not be to the level of intensity the submissive needs. So my advice is, if this is a real need in a submissive's life, their best bet is to find a dominant already capable of meeting that. Anything else is playing dangerous odds that could lead to heartache on both sides.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to Nendarye)

Post #: 3

RE: Forcing to hurt without harming - 1/29/2006 10:42:17 PM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

NO.... if it's there it can be nutured and fostered into actualization... But it must be in the person's nature in the first place!

It shouldn't be surprizing that some masochist will take it much farther than a sadist will want to go... just like a sadist is able take it farther than a masochist can go. It's great when they are both closely compatiable in this particular area, if the difference is significant, play partners are a possibility. IE, my bottom denika has a deepest of love for her husband. But, he may never take her to the levels of SM that she desires to feel, hence they bring me into their life. All of us, my girls, denika and her husband and myself are indeed fortunate in having this relationship. Thou SM is what brought denika and myself together, it is the friendships that are keeping all of us in each other's lives... thru good times and bad!

I hope for the best for you.... I know denika and her husband found what works for them. They are both evolving, her husband is finding his own niche so to speak, and so is denika. It is takes time and effort to bring it to those levels. If you haven't felt those levels before, it can't be rather daunting place to obtain or appreciate.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to Nendarye)

Post #: 4

RE: Forcing to hurt without harming - 1/30/2006 4:44:14 AM

Nendarye

Posts: 147
Joined: 12/23/2005
From: Texas
Status: offline

Thank you gentlemen. You confirmed what Master said. He also does not believe that a person can force such a feeling within themselves.

/sigh

Now to convince another

_____________________________

" You may be suffering, but you will always suffer with love"

@~~Proud property of Master Michael~~@

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 5

RE: Forcing to hurt without harming - 1/30/2006 5:49:45 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

A lot of sadists take a lot of time to become acclimated to being sadistic. Many have to learn how to free themselves over time.

That being said, I agree that getting into a relationship with someone where this key area is not compatible and hoping for change is just asking for trouble on all sides.

What if the issue were that you were monogamous and he was poly? Would you want him to get involved with you hoping that you could become accustomed to poly over time?

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to Nendarye)

Post #: 6

RE: Forcing to hurt without harming - 1/30/2006 6:23:35 AM

RavenMuse

Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
What if the issue were that you were monogamous and he was poly? Would you want him to get involved with you hoping that you could become accustomed to poly over time?

If you add "Whilst telling him that you are Poly so he won't run screaming" then thats something I definatly recognise. *Shudder*

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 7

RE: Forcing to hurt without harming - 1/30/2006 6:36:10 AM

desoutter

Posts: 91
Joined: 3/21/2005
Status: offline

In my experience - to pursue an action outside of what one is comfortable with... invites disaster.
The exception - If one is curious about his or her limits and willing to explore levels unknown to them. If not - see above...

In other words - Know your limitations... Dont try to be something youre not... and always communicate what works and what doesnt early on in a relationship... This way - in the future... there are no surprises like: "I thought you liked that?" "I could have sworn you would change..."

desoutter

(in reply to Nendarye)

Post #: 8

RE: Forcing to hurt without harming - 1/30/2006 6:56:07 AM

RavenMuse

Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: desoutter

In my experience - to pursue an action outside of what one is comfortable with... invites disaster.
The exception - If one is curious about his or her limits and willing to explore levels unknown to them. If not - see above...

The experience I would say definatly holds true in regard to hard limits. Thats why they are hard limits.

I've pushed my own boundrys a few times, especialy in inflicting pain, but always taken it in stages, a bit firther each time.

Past where I find it 'playful' (Admittedly only someone who is into it quite a bit would get me to push my bounderys as I can be QUITE playful when I'm in the right mood) I don't get much from the action itself but if it is someone who is very into it then I definatly get enough from their reaction that its not ALL just for the other person.

(in reply to desoutter)

Post #: 9

RE: Forcing to hurt without harming - 1/30/2006 8:20:18 AM

IronBear

Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline

Only from a personal point of view and based on experience, I'm on record for not enjoying giving pain. However if I have some one i a collar who at times needs pain and for the argument let's say the prefered tool is a flogger, I have no hesitation in flogging their tailpiece untill it is raw. The difference between that what I'll do for my pleasure, is what I out into it. If it is for my pleasure, I'll put my heart and soul into it, where as if it is to satisify someone as a special treat, my attitude will be far more clinical, taking all due precautions of not over doing it. The end result will be almost the same as if I were getting pleasure in giving the flogging, the difference is my level of enjoyment.

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to RavenMuse)

Post #: 10

RE: Forcing to hurt without harming - 1/30/2006 8:55:57 AM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nendarye

Thank you gentlemen. You confirmed what Master said. He also does not believe that a person can force such a feeling within themselves.

/sigh

Now to convince another

There are those that never think of it. I am one that never before considered SM prior to alandra. Even in the early stages of our relationship, the play was kinky sex at the most. Bondage and rather rough, but there was no spanking etc for along time. It just never occurred to me. It was about 6-7 years ago, maybe alittle longer that I started to consider things in a SM view point. Bought a flogger, the first time I used on alandra, she had a huge spurting orgasm mmmmmmmmmm now if that isn't motivation I don't know what would be! We evolved quickly from there. It's not uncommon to take various types of canes and beat her till her ass is pulp! and leave a feet in puddle of cum at the same time. The fact is nethier of us dreamed or ached to have these SM experiences, but it did come out of us. I honestly don't understand why individuals struggle with doing SM. It never was a challenge in the way others describe it. For myself, the challenge was always to find a way to cause more, always looking how far I can push Her! I have never felt like I was pushing myself in my SM. My biggest push if you will was actually doing SM with a male, since I am a straight Male!. I did that push more than a couple years ago and as soon as I was into the scene, well I soared quick and fast. I found the sex of my partner is of little consequence to me. SM is SM to me. It is not a sexual arroused state! Which I might add was a real surprize, considering what actually was my prime motivator in the beginning. We will each find our own levels of play on the sensation scale. We do it for others, well I call that Service Tops and/or Service Play. But, if we are getting enjoyment from our actions in there own right, well that is different kettle of fish all together. Nothing is comparable as two plus individuals enjoying the play in it's own right. Yes, I take pleasure knowing my bottom is doing it for my pleasure, but it takes it to a completely different zone of play when both my bottom and I are getting enjoyment from the actions in play! In SM nothing compares for me!

< Message edited by KnightofMists -- 1/30/2006 8:56:57 AM >

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to Nendarye)

Post #: 11

RE: Forcing to hurt without harming - 1/30/2006 10:31:37 AM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

quote:

Is it possible for a Master/Dom who is NOT into heavy pain of this kind to change into one that is? Or is it possible to force this in oneself, if only for a short time to satisfy the slave/sub?

The standard reply is; "the two parties should communicate their needs and desires and determine that, if they are not compatible, they can live with compromise." Now how can you argue with that? I even agree with it in concept and have stated such to many situations similar to the example you give. But the answer is incomplete and doesn't consider something just as important as communication but discussed far less.

No, not trust, always an important ingredient of any relationship. The aspect not given enough importance is a condition of trust - TIME. It appears time is the least considered component of any "problem" such as the subject of this thread. Time, as an investment to the relationship, is a VERY important consideration.

Take a look at the average profile and the list of "can't live withouts, loves, likes, curious about". It would be a hell of a challenge to experience all of those on the first real time meeting. Yet, we use them to qualify and worse yet, disqualify people.

Intensity should build over time, and not be peaked the first day/night shared together. Trust is a two way street needing time to develop. The intensity of pain sought may not be function of the right toy or the right words said to make the Master "comfortable" with facilitating the desired sensation. It may just take time to know and establish a common definition of the words; "needs PAIN as a part of his/her daily life". Hell, I can say I need to inflict pain as part of my daily life, but sometimes that desire is fulfilled by just posting to CM.

The "daily" aspect to me indicates this is an ongoing relationship with a single main partner. So daily I'd suggest investing some time to the situation. Make it a relationship "goal" and do something constructive pointed to that goal at every opportunity. That's not just using different implements, but reading, talking, discussing, and taking time.

While you are doing this, enjoy the journey and - HAVE FUN!

(in reply to Nendarye)

Post #: 12

RE: Forcing to hurt without harming - 1/30/2006 1:10:07 PM

tendergirl

Posts: 103
Joined: 11/25/2005
Status: offline

It takes time to get the "push and pull" of a D/s relationship just right I think to where both parties are happy. I did not know I was as masochistic as I am until this started. And my Dom thought He could probably inflict the pain I desired without hesistance (and He really could if necessary) but He does not really enjoy inflicting pain. He has gone as far at times as I have wanted and it has probably not been a good idea for me. I have now learned to follow His lead which is as it should be.

I adore breath control (don't lecture me please) and He caters to that for me rather than risk me doing it alone. The beauty of a good D/s relationship is that we care for one another's needs, wants, desires and pleasures. We like each other, we love each other. He tells me that He wants me around for many years to come therefore He protects me from even myself.

I am quite reckless and destructive and He is teaching me to value myself. My Dom is actually so very good for me in that what we have and what we do is better than therapy. He peels away years of me feeling that I was useless. He is teaching me that I am wonderful. I feel wonderful beneath His hand. But I never feel more beautiful and wonderful than when He is hurting me, not harming me. The pain reminds me that I am alive and sends me to subspace. It is divine and He gives that pleasure to me for me.

As you can see, I am a very lucky girl. He won't harm me, but He will hurt me.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 13

RE: Forcing to hurt without harming - 1/31/2006 10:37:21 AM

denika

Posts: 619
Joined: 8/30/2005
Status: offline

A line from Shakespeare comes to mind "To thine own self be true" it's a strong truth.

I am very lucky to have a husband that is open minded and confident enough in himself not to be threatened by my relationship with Knight, and this openess has fostered a deep and meaningfull freindship with Knight and His wonderful girls.

I could no more force Rob (hubby) into being a Top as he could force me to be a Top, it's not in me and to be honest, in the end someone would end up getting hurt. Either physiclly or emotionally. Rob has his own kink and it would be unfair to expect him to be something he is not.

The synergy we have with Knight and his girls fills our life with joy and adventure *s* as He said, I am still trying to find my niche, I think we all are in one way or another, after all life is about growth.

Be true to yourself and the rest will fall into place.

denika

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 14

RE: Forcing to hurt without harming - 2/3/2006 1:58:35 PM

Nendarye

Posts: 147
Joined: 12/23/2005
From: Texas
Status: offline

When I had first approached Master with this question, his answer was an intense NO...you can not force a person to become that which they are not. But I, had always assumed that in any relationship, both parties would try and become that which the other wanted or needed...which is where the real discussion between us came from. And I will admit, that the question actually arose out of concern for someone else.

quote:

So yes, I think it's possible for one who isn't sadistic to learn to enjoy to inflict pain, and to be able to inflict pain in a way that makes a masochist feel good, -and- do so without catering to the masochist.

Perverseangelic, I understand what you are saying here. Can I ask...did your owner go through any areas of guilt? For hurting you? Or for doing what in his mind was hurting?

quote:

Its possible but I think any submissive who goes into a relationship hoping or believing that will happen is setting themselves up for disappointment. Some may change, but some will not. Some may adapt to a degree, but it might not be to the level of intensity the submissive needs. So my advice is, if this is a real need in a submissive's life, their best bet is to find a dominant already capable of meeting that. Anything else is playing dangerous odds that could lead to heartache on both sides.

Padriag; you said pretty much the same thing that Master said. That in the end, both are going to end up more heartbroken than happy.

quote:

NO.... if it's there it can be nutured and fostered into actualization... But it must be in the person's nature in the first place!

KnightofMists; again, you only reinforced what Master said.

quote:

That being said, I agree that getting into a relationship with someone where this key area is not compatible and hoping for change is just asking for trouble on all sides.

What if the issue were that you were monogamous and he was poly? Would you want him to get involved with you hoping that you could become accustomed to poly over time?

LuckyAlbatross, you put it in a different perspective, one that I can understand a bit better now.

Mercnbeth, you hit on an aspect that I thought would be a turning point for such a relationship. Time. Time to learn and time to grow...on both ends.

After thinking and talking with Master about this some more, I am inclined to agree that a person could not become that which is not in their nature, no matter how much time could be added to the equation. I think that in the end, the dominant would end up feeling forced, and the sub/slave would end up feeling guilty for forcing him/her.

At least it turned into a really good discussion between Master and I lol

_____________________________

" You may be suffering, but you will always suffer with love"

@~~Proud property of Master Michael~~@

(in reply to Nendarye)

Post #: 15

RE: Forcing to hurt without harming - 2/3/2006 3:01:08 PM

fastlane

Posts: 2159
Joined: 5/26/2005
Status: offline

YES!

_____________________________

Just because it hurts, doesn't necessarily make it a bad thing.

(in reply to Nendarye)

Post #: 16

RE: Forcing to hurt without harming - 2/3/2006 5:52:55 PM

IceyOne

Posts: 258
Joined: 1/13/2006
Status: offline

I always thought that something of this nature could not be forced in a person? But, maybe I was not thinking of the time aspect.

_____________________________

Your task is not to seek for love, but merely to seek and find all the barriers within yourself that you have built against it.

-Rumi

(in reply to Nendarye)

Post #: 17

RE: Forcing to hurt without harming - 5/19/2010 11:51:03 AM

BabieGothika

Posts: 41
Joined: 5/10/2010
Status: offline

U give a safe word to your slave, so, then u can start giving her all the pain she wants till she screams the "safe word" to you and then u know her limits

(in reply to Padriag)

Post #: 18

RE: Forcing to hurt without harming - 5/19/2010 11:55:28 AM

sirsholly

Posts: 42360
Joined: 9/7/2007
From: Quietville
Status: offline

psst...4 yr old thread.

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(in reply to BabieGothika)

Post #: 19

RE: Forcing to hurt without harming - 5/19/2010 11:58:39 AM

VirginPotty

Posts: 11624
Joined: 7/16/2008
From: Virginville
Status: offline

I think it can be "forced" if the person is interested in changing.

You'd have NEVER convinced me just 3 years ago that I'd be submitting to anyone on a regular basis but I am. That road was LONG & TUMULTUOUS and INCREDIBLY hard but in the long run so very worth it for us both. Certain aspects caught my interest right away, others took awhile......still working on some of them but it's alot easier for me now.

_____________________________

Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.

(in reply to BabieGothika)

Post #: 20

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