RE: Is submission that cheap ? (Full Version)

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LaTigresse -> RE: Is submission that cheap ? (4/14/2009 8:14:12 AM)

Of course you did, many of us do. However not all of us do. Does not make either right or wrong, better or worse. Just different.



NorthernGent -> RE: Is submission that cheap ? (4/14/2009 2:14:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz

There have been a number of postings recently where a select few dominant guys give the impression that if a sub can't do this, that or the other, one should get rid of them, even if that falls within a relationship.
This surely means that submission comes before anything else and takes absolute precedence.
Its like saying 'ya know what? the woman is an amazing conversationalist, she's intelligent, deep, thoughtful, caring, kinky,loving, understanding but she can't polish my shoes right and therefore she has to go'.



People have their own quirks and value systems. Being intelligent, deep, thoughtful etc may be your idea of an ideal partner, but others may have more pressing matters.

It's not that difficult to find an intelligent, caring woman, so perhaps there are other factors that separate the wheat from the chaffe.



GotSteel -> RE: Is submission that cheap ? (4/14/2009 3:41:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz
I have teenagers that have sex mates. They may see a girl for ages but insist they are not in a relationship with them which kind of baffles me but I guess that's a similar comparison to what we are talking about here.


quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz
I had a slave for two years and at the end of two years when he overstepped the mark with something I let him go. There was no emotion on my part, just a breaking of contracts. Perhaps that sounds cold but it wasn't because everything was clear cut from start to end. I was not in a relationship with him and I had nothing more than a fondness for him.


[sm=confused.gif] I'm baffled by your bafflement, seems like you've done the same thing as your teenagers.



MasterDarkSadist -> RE: Is submission that cheap ? (4/14/2009 6:47:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz

There have been a number of postings recently where a select few dominant guys give the impression that if a sub can't do this, that or the other, one should get rid of them, even if that falls within a relationship.
This surely means that submission comes before anything else and takes absolute precedence.
Its like saying 'ya know what? the woman is an amazing conversationalist, she's intelligent, deep, thoughtful, caring, kinky,loving, understanding but she can't polish my shoes right and therefore she has to go'.
When I look at these posts I can't help but shake my head at the shallowness. It gives submission no depth and appears to me that these people are just playing silly games and are not looking for anything deeper than an Gucci handbag.

Am I alone with these thoughts or do others feel like me?





Submission is not cheap.  When you hear these posts, they are in response to due to issues that are near and dear to many of us Doms.  In writing, it is difficult to convey the hard decision to release a sub/slave, however it is an important issue to discuss.  There are several things that I think that you overlooked when you arrived at this conclusion.  If you are referring to posts that I have written, then you are wrong in your assumption that I want nothing more than a gucci handbag, and I am offended at that. 

First off.  If I wanted, or could live a vanilla relationship, I would find one of those.  It is simple enough to find a vanilla girl, as I could pick from any that are walking around.  I do not.  If I wanted a part-time lifestyle relationship, I would seek that out.  I do not.  I want/need a 24/7 Master/slave relationship in order for the dynamic to work out without conflict.  A true, natural slave (after much thought, trial and error, and pain/suffering) is the only personality type that can tolerate me.  Others just simply cannot submit enough to emotionally deal with the level of dominance that I exert.  Given the above statement, if a girl is not able to deal with me without constantly battling me, and that fighting will lead to relationship problems (and I am not talking about the normal speed-bumps of any relationship).  This introspection is good for both me, and the hypothetical girl in question.  Nobody should have to be in a relationship that is a constant fight.  Therefore, it would be wrong, and abusive to make a girl endure something she was not meant to be.  Not every girl can be what I need her to be, and not every girl wants what I am.  The only way to find out is to try it out..and if it is not right, to move on. 

In print, it seems that it is so simple, yet it is not.  It is not a decision that I take lightly, nor is it one that I enjoy making.  However, it is one that NEEDS to be looked at from all angles, because an incorrect decision impacts not only my life, but my (hypothetical) girl's life as well.



catize -> RE: Is submission that cheap ? (4/14/2009 10:13:25 PM)

For me, it all comes down to what several people have said here.   Expectations are set and if I have agreed to live by them, then in order to keep the relationship positive and vital; it is my responsibility to keep to that agreement.  
If one of us wakes up one morning to the realization that this isn’t what we want anymore, then, in essence, what we had is over.
There are those who may go along with the change, at least at first; but I don’t think it will work out well. “A” relationship may be possible to maintain, but it is not “the” relationship we had.  That means some hard choices need to be made.   
It’s not right if I change my mind and then expect my partner to be happy with or go along with those changes, particularly when it has been made clear from the beginning what “we” were all about.
People do change and I don’t think playing the blame game is necessary from either side of the problem.  But compromise is not always an option.
Sucks, but there it is!



NihilusZero -> RE: Is submission that cheap ? (4/15/2009 12:04:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69

To me, it sounds like someone who knows what they want. It is okay with me, if I am unable fulfill every possible request out there, it just means, I am not suited for the one that has the requests I am unable to fulfull.
Kim

25 points.



allthatjaz -> RE: Is submission that cheap ? (4/15/2009 12:26:52 AM)

MasterDarkSadist
This post was not about you and thinking about it I think this is the first time I have ever seen you, so be offended all you like. This is a debate and its not personal to any particular individual.
I do understand what your saying about your wants, needs and desires to find what fits you and I think you have explained very clearly why certain elements of continual negativity would inevitably break down the relationship. In what you say, I agree and when written the way you wrote it, it all makes a whole heap of sense.

The written word can be a dangerous one indeed. Often thing are condensed and give out the wrong messages to people like me. I have been guilty of writing in briefs and in turn I have been jumped on for being a monster, not doing it right, getting the whole thing very wrong and thats because people will inevitably read between the lines and reach there own conclusion, just as you concluded I was talking about you. Perhaps thats the reason behind instigating this post. I read from various Doms that were either starting or adding to posts that if a sub gets something wrong she can basically 'fuck off'. As others here have clearly pointed out, thats cool with some people and if it is then I need to take that on board.



allthatjaz -> RE: Is submission that cheap ? (4/15/2009 12:29:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz
I have teenagers that have sex mates. They may see a girl for ages but insist they are not in a relationship with them which kind of baffles me but I guess that's a similar comparison to what we are talking about here.


quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz
I had a slave for two years and at the end of two years when he overstepped the mark with something I let him go. There was no emotion on my part, just a breaking of contracts. Perhaps that sounds cold but it wasn't because everything was clear cut from start to end. I was not in a relationship with him and I had nothing more than a fondness for him.


[sm=confused.gif] I'm baffled by your bafflement, seems like you've done the same thing as your teenagers.


Not so because I have never had a sex with anyone I am not in a relationship with. I did not have sex with this slave. I am not saying that if you have sex with someone when your not in a relationship its wrong but if you continually hang out with that person, go to the cinema, restaurants, holidays and have sex with them regularly then at least for me it would be the forming of a relationship.



AlexandraLynch -> RE: Is submission that cheap ? (4/15/2009 12:33:54 AM)

I personally view what I am currently looking for in a sub as looking for an employee with specialized skills AND the capacity to be trained to a certain difficult job. It's one thing to fire someone who lied on his employment application early on, but it's another (at least from my point of view) to fire an employee with whom a problem develops once I've put some training into him. I am going to probably bend over backwards to try to keep him in his job, and if I can't, to attempt to make the separation as easy as possible on both sides.



allthatjaz -> RE: Is submission that cheap ? (4/15/2009 3:40:04 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

Hi OP,

Again, its a cost/value thing. You allow in your slaveries very little cost to you but a demand a high value with the threshold being very little for room for error. Within your relationships you are willing to pay a cost to achieve a value where the threshold of error is much lower because your cost is so high. I don't think its about an emotional or chemistry connection but the VALUE you place and the COST you are willing to pay. You choose in your relationship with your slave to allow very little value to the emotional and chemistry connection, therefore you place a hight value on adhereance to the contract and obedience. IF a slave fails in what you have deemed valuable, and the cost of keeping them then is too high its later gater. IN what you deem is a equal relationship you choose to place more value on emotional and chenistry and allow a much lower value to obedience and/or contract adherence. So disobedience or what not is not a major blow to the person's value to you and you are willing to pay a higher cost to maintain what YOU want.

Again, it depends what you place value to and what your expectations and standards are. So what YOU may deem worthy and of substance may not be in another relationship -- again -- it doesn't make it shallow, it makes it different.

I presume you choose a slave based on potential you see for a slave to reach and maintain your standards and expectations, i presume you train your slaves and not simply expect perfection from day one to your expectations and standards. Therefore, despite what you say -- you DO have a margin of error you do allow the slave. YOu do have a cost concept you are willing to pay to own a slave. And you do have an idea of where the line is drawn between a slave's value does not exceed the cost within which to keep him. My point is the costs and values and thresholds and margins are all different for each relationship -- i.e. a bond between two people.

To some for a slave to constantly need correction on a concept no matter what it is may place to high of a cost on the Man who is her Master because he values relaxation and fun over continuously repetitive training on the same thing over and over. So no matter how much he may enjoy other aspects of his slave and the relationship he has with her, this cost may override the rest because it overrides her overall value to him. So he says later gater because to him paying the cost with no real return in value is not worth his time or hers.

I get what you are saying about how you view slave and your relationship but again its about what return you are getting in their value and how it applys to your expectations and standards of your LIFE as a whole, which is why you choose a slave which you say you don't have a relationship with or a sub which you do. They both fulfill expectations and standards in your life and you apply a cost value system to how they are able to achieve and maintain same -- and that is different for each of them. If you have such a vast difference in this in your own relationships and how people exist in your life, i really don't get how you are determining how others determine their own costs and values for a slave OR a sub reaching and maintaining their expectations and standards as being shallow? You are trying to apply a truism to how others view relationships, and you are applying shallow to something you deem is inappropriate based on your truism.

angel


angel thanks for taking the time to write this. Its people like you that make me look at logic. I debate nothing you have written because you actually make a hell of a lot of sense [:)]



Padriag -> RE: Is submission that cheap ? (4/15/2009 6:00:30 AM)

Yup, very nicely put.



barelynangel -> RE: Is submission that cheap ? (4/15/2009 8:09:53 AM)

Hi Maria,

I actually learned that through being a slave.   My value to him based on what he determined value needed and will need to exceed (if i become a slave again) what he determined as his cost of keeping me around lol.  Many don't like seeing it that way because it does many times put the determination fully in the one in control's hands.  Its scary and unbalancing in the beginning but as the slavery progressed it became a very comforting concept because all in all, i knew where i stood in terms of his keeping me around.  Over the years, i have learned all relationships work in this manner on some level -- the values are just defined differently for the individuals involved in different types of relationships. As a slave, i was more aware of my value to my owner based on the value he determined because of his needs, wants and desires because as a slave who was kept by his determination, his cost of keeping me needed to remain under my value to him hopefully significantly so the margin of allowable error was greater if needed.  It sounds very absolute but really its not, its more of a knowing where you stand concept -- and a good Man will spell this out clearly, the problem is the slave or even sub has to be listening and not believing they are indispensible which will allow them to try and determine their own value to their owner.  Many times i find that to be the issue more than the Man acting on "an absolute" suddenly without warning when issues you have described in your OP pop up.

Glad my post offered a different perspective.

angel



IronBear -> RE: Is submission that cheap ? (4/15/2009 9:26:57 AM)

quote:

allthatjaz:

In my opinion a slave can be very different from a submissive and I think the term slave is tossed about all too lightly without seriously considering what that status implies.



Thank you for that comment. I agree with your thoughts based on both posts her, some other forums and in face to face conversations with people who should know better.

barelynangel, we go back quite a while and I have fond memories of both posts and conversations when I was part of the Gorean Community. I loved your post it puts things so well. Thank you lass.



barelynangel -> RE: Is submission that cheap ? (4/15/2009 4:55:43 PM)

smiles, hi Master IronBear. Thanks, i don't post much over here but sometimes i see threads that i can relate too even within my Gorean understanding of slavery lol. I remember you also very much so, you are missed on the other side :-)

angel



Bstardsbitch -> RE: Is submission that cheap ? (4/16/2009 12:54:10 PM)

Submission is  often as cheap as the monthly internet fee.
x



roland23 -> RE: Is submission that cheap ? (4/16/2009 1:55:25 PM)

Submission should not be that "cheap", but and this is an important but. Whether we are BDSM or vanilla we all have guidelines in our relationships. "Standards Rule!" as the ol' song from the Jam goes. Look, if I had a dime (or a shilling) for every woman who rejected me because I was not wealthy or looked like a model, I would be quite wealthy. They have their standards and although I do not agree with them, I must accept reality. If a woman refuses to be submissive, she is simply wasting my time. I have standards involving dress, behavior etc.     



RavenMuse -> RE: Is submission that cheap ? (4/17/2009 8:57:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

On one hand, if we go into a relationship with specific needs, then we sacrifice those needs, we are being dishonest. Mostly with ourselves. Ultimately a relationship that consistantly demands one person sacrifice their core self to make it work, will probably fail.


Bingo! I don't DO vanilla it isn't who I am. I don't fall for someone and then try to 'kink it up' wit a bit of D/s at the weekends, this is a way of life to Me. If I have a relationship then it is an M/s relationship (Or D/s in regards to playpartners). Whilst many things can have some felxability the Dynamic isn't one of them, submit or don't let the door hit your ass on the way out.

I make it VERY clear at the start, anyone who can't live inside those rules shouldn't be trying to get into a relationship with ME anyhow, We are not compatable. If they try and find they can't then We part company. If they lie, thinking to change Me then they won't have to walk out the door because My foot will be assisting them through it.

If submission was cheap then it wouldn't be important enough to warrent breaking the relationship over..... It isn't cheap, it is essential (For ME) and if it isn't there then the relationship is already over!



allthatjaz -> RE: Is submission that cheap ? (4/17/2009 9:52:35 AM)

A lot of this boils down to chemistry. One could have an amazing submissive but feel no chemistry towards them and isn't it chemistry that starts the foundations of togetherness? On the other hand we could form that initial chemistry from the way we interact. she is everything you expected and hoped for and you are everything she ever wanted... bingo its perfect. But what do we do if over a period of time things change? Oh you still love one another but she's starting to feel perhaps a little less submissive than before. Perhaps just other life things are getting in the way. What if, after lots of talking, things don't change? do we give up at this point? do we stop loving because the only love we can feel for her is Dominant love?
How many times do we hear from friends 'oh he just wasn't dominant enough' or 'she really isn't sub material and I had to let her go'
I have heard this a lot, especially from people that I have become close to but these people have often got another one lined up and have confessed in earlier conversations that there sub, Dom/Domme was not going to be long term because they just didn't fancy them enough.
What about people that are actually looking for long term relationships and to do so they have to find Mr or Miss Right and are not people that want a no strings attached arrangement.
My slave of two years was on a 'no strings attached' basis. I gave him what he needed and he gave me what I needed. If I didn't fulfil my duty to dominate him then he would of had every right to of walked the walk and the same for me. No strings = no emotional involvement.
Then we have the couples that want and do fall in love, often get married and go on to make a happy family. At some point during that time submission and dominance may ebb and flow like the tide. Lots of ups and downs and in betweens.
In the early stages of this kind of relationship one is going to get a lot of clues as to it working or not. Is he the right sort of Dominant for her and is she the right kind of submissive for him. Lets face it, we come in a thousand different colours. Its not one match fits all (if only it were that simple). Now whilst I don't believe in compromise, I do believe that we may need certain adjustments for the fitting together of a very unique puzzle. I believe in understanding and taking on board certain problems. An example of this may be a submissive not being able to position herself on her knees for long because she has a knee problem. There are always alternatives. Black and white are two very boring colours.
On the other hand a submissive that attention seeks, can't do this, won't do that, because, because, because its just so unfair. Yes, perhaps this is a submissive that is looking to get her/his arse booted by most but it could be much harder if this comes late in the relationship when the dominant has actually really fallen for her/him. Emotions are not that cut and dry. You can't just turn emotions off. Its even difficult to find irritation in someone you love.
I know so many people living this lifestyle and so many couples that are in love that are living this lifestyle too.I just find it hard to imagine that love disappearing overnight if the sub starts making mistakes and how easy it would be to boot her/him out.



RavenMuse -> RE: Is submission that cheap ? (4/17/2009 10:00:34 AM)

Getting into a specific position isn't submission... wanting to get into the position her Master wants IS.... the inability to do the former would simply be worked around, the lack of the latter = no submission hasta la vista!

To many mistake specific actions for submission... submission is her desire, her compultion to please. So what if she can't kneel, if I want her at My feet she can always sit on the floor. Puts her where I want her and isn't as tough on bad knees. The fact that she is inspired to BE at My feet, that is the important bit.



DesFIP -> RE: Is submission that cheap ? (4/17/2009 10:46:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse
Too many mistake specific actions for submission... submission is her desire, her compulsion to please. So what if she can't kneel, if I want her at My feet she can always sit on the floor. Puts her where I want her and isn't as tough on bad knees. The fact that she is inspired to BE at My feet, that is the important bit.


I have bolded the important part (to me) in your post.
We see people complain that their partner can't do one specific thing well and therefore they are going to move on. What they don't realize is that their next partner may well be good at action A but not competent at action B. With this attitude they will constantly be disappointed and be lying to the sub of the week because they never say this upfront.

When we first got together, I was highly multiple orgasmic. Menopause has removed that ability from me. Is he going to kick me to the curb because I can't do this anymore? No, even though he misses it as do I. He no longer has the option of tying me down and making me cum till I beg him to stop but to get rid of me for something that isn't my fault would be wrong when he claims my value to him is far more than just sex playmate.



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