RE: beyond Obedience (Full Version)

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IceyOne -> RE: beyond Obedience (1/30/2006 1:56:34 PM)

quote:

To follow your direction and commands with a burning passion in her belly and a driving need to please you in all areas


When I think of beyond Obedience...this is the closest definition that comes to mind. A desire to please so deep, that it takes you beyond just 'following orders'



seaturtle50 -> RE: beyond Obedience (1/30/2006 2:12:33 PM)

My take is a sense of being owned. Ownership. In my feelings, in my nature. Sort of take away the issue of obedience (at least in a romantic mind set sort of way).

For me, it is one thing to offer myself (utterly) to another Person, but something else entirely to feel the concomitant "knowing" that One has accepting that ownership. Of Her accepting ownership of me. To walk around, aware, full of the sense of being so owned, would cause me to feel, act, and think, "beyond obedient."

st50



KnightofMists -> RE: beyond Obedience (1/30/2006 2:33:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: IsleofLite

I had a sub tell me that she felt that I wanted her to go 'beyond obedience', and I laughed and told her she was right. When she pressed me to know what that was, what was there beyond obedience, silence was my only answer, for I wanted her to go there without my definition in hand. So I ask you, Oh continuum of sensualists, what do you think is 'beyond obedience'?


a romantic term of no value! Just something to glorify what is already ocurring in a obedient submissive. Obedience!



LadyMorgynn -> RE: beyond Obedience (1/30/2006 2:36:51 PM)

Well said.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo
To understand one's owner/dominant so well that commands are no longer necessary. To be active in one's service.




veronicaofML -> RE: beyond Obedience (1/30/2006 3:02:50 PM)

and I like to be surprised with romantic gestures.
====

in that, is one stage of this, "I" will NEVER reach.

i have wondered about it,...but that is all, i am ever GONNA do...wonder.

we take you back now to your previously scheduled program.





sweetpettjenny -> RE: beyond Obedience (1/30/2006 3:06:15 PM)

For me it means simply doing without instruction , and learning all of him and knowing what is expected , not being told every action he or she wants.



IsleofLite -> RE: beyond Obedience (1/31/2006 8:44:39 AM)

I am wondering really how I can be ‘ok’ with anything else. As an artist of experiences, we have material, we have technique, and aren’t our best creations those that we least expected?



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: beyond Obedience (1/31/2006 8:58:21 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: IsleofLite
I am wondering really how I can be ‘ok’ with anything else. As an artist of experiences, we have material, we have technique, and aren’t our best creations those that we least expected?

Sometimes yes, sometimes no.

No one can tell you what you can be ok with. What you do have to know is exactly what you are being asked to be ok with and then decide if you are.

Frankly, making lifetime commitments is something we should have a good idea on expectations.



cloudboy -> RE: beyond Obedience (1/31/2006 9:14:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: IsleofLite

I had a sub tell me that she felt that I wanted her to go 'beyond obedience', and I laughed and told her she was right. When she pressed me to know what that was, what was there beyond obedience, silence was my only answer, for I wanted her to go there without my definition in hand. So I ask you, Oh continuum of sensualists, what do you think is 'beyond obedience'?


Hmmm, to not only clean the tub, but to clean it while whistling a happy tune to boot.



maybemaybenot -> RE: beyond Obedience (1/31/2006 9:24:27 AM)

IsleofLite:

You have gotten a good number if similarly differing answers to your OP. Reading thru this I have been trying to see it from the sub you mentioned's eyes. She asked you the same question you asked here and she got no reply. "Beyond obedience " obvioulsy is open to the interpretation of the person with the expectation or desire to go there.
If the sub mentioned were to read this thread she would be no wiser to what
*you* mean by beyond obedience than she was when you said it.. While I certainly understand you wanting her to go ther on her own, I do not understand how you expect her to figure this riddle out without any clues.

Maybe it's just me, but I wouldn't waste a whole lot of my time trying to figure out someone's expectation if they were unwilling to at least point me in the right direction. My submission is not about floundering around, wondering if I am on the right track or I completely off base. Point me in the direction, give me a little input and I will not stop until I get it right. I take great pride in meeting and exceeding my Dominants expectations, and would feel abandoned if he were unwilling to help me understand what he desires from me, even if it be in a general sense.

Beyond obedience ? It's like beyond submissive or beyond dominance. Is there an actual measuring tool ? Or is it an individual perception ? Is it the submissive's job < or the dominants > to read the mind of the other when trying to attain the level that is expected ?

mbmbn

ps: the questions are not meant to be answered, just food for thought.



amayos -> RE: beyond Obedience (1/31/2006 9:42:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: IsleofLite

I had a sub tell me that she felt that I wanted her to go 'beyond obedience', and I laughed and told her she was right. When she pressed me to know what that was, what was there beyond obedience, silence was my only answer, for I wanted her to go there without my definition in hand. So I ask you, Oh continuum of sensualists, what do you think is 'beyond obedience'?


???



LeatherBentOne -> RE: beyond Obedience (2/2/2006 7:43:56 AM)

My submissive and I currently live in different states but I manage to make frequent and extended visits. During the times when we cannot be together, we often meet online. Recently, she did something online that I disapproved of and after expressing my feelings in an email following the infraction, she commenced to punish herself on her own by sleeping on the floor rather than the comfort of her own bed. The next day her email informed me of her self-inflicted punishment and begged for forgiveness in saying that she humbly accepted her punishment by sleeping on the floor. She thanked me for her training without which she would never be able please me as she hoped she had. That's what "beyond obedience" to me.



xxblushesxx -> RE: beyond Obedience (2/2/2006 9:13:45 AM)

I too, would like to hear the OP's response...



IsleofLite -> RE: beyond Obedience (2/2/2006 9:22:04 AM)

"Is total and complete surrender more or less meaninglful if it is without thought? "

So this gets to be the question of beyond for me. . .is there a place beyond, you ask it here, if we slip past the point where the master's definitions or the world's definitions, or what we know apply, is there a valley there into which we might run and play.
If one decides on surrender is it not to ask a new and differing set of questions, and as such are we not then prepared to receive these answers? (as a note here I would say no, many are not, but that is a new post)
Tell me please, what possible use can thought be except as a tool to either make the submission a product of ones past or somehow save it for ones future, to make it an investment, to remove it from the actual experience one is having. As such are we not cheapening, even showing our disrespect at the master‘s hand?
When a submissive arrives they wish to serve, I hear this often, "I don't know why, I just do. . ." Are they not seekers from the start that board the master's "train" hoping it is taking them to the right station, is it really about the master at all or is there something, somewhere they seek (for themselves), beyond this "meaningfulness" of thought. . . . . .
quote:

Is total and complete surrender more or less meaninglful if it is without thought?



Arpig -> RE: beyond Obedience (2/2/2006 9:35:34 AM)

I think we all pretty much agree, on what is "beyond obedience", we all have a slightly different take on it and a different definition of just what typifies it, but basicall I think we can agree that beyond obedience there lies the place where the sub/slave has a deep and driving need to please the dominant in every way possible, where the sub tries to anticipate the desires of the dominant, and where obedience is simply a natural reaction, not one that requires thought on the part of the one obeying.
To go "beyond obedience" basically means to fully embrace your role as a sub, to LIVE it such that it is simply who and what you are, not a role you slip into and out of. If you are your owner's property when he/she is not with you and has absolutely no way of knowing what you are doing, and you still obey..that is when you have gone "beyond obedience", when you obey when there is no chance of being found out and no possibility of punishment.



RavenMuse -> RE: beyond Obedience (2/2/2006 11:24:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig
To go "beyond obedience" basically means to fully embrace your role as a sub, to LIVE it such that it is simply who and what you are, not a role you slip into and out of. If you are your owner's property when he/she is not with you and has absolutely no way of knowing what you are doing, and you still obey..that is when you have gone "beyond obedience", when you obey when there is no chance of being found out and no possibility of punishment.


You've captured my sentiments on it excatly there Arpig!



KnightofMists -> RE: beyond Obedience (2/2/2006 12:13:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

I think we all pretty much agree, on what is "beyond obedience", we all have a slightly different take on it and a different definition of just what typifies it, but basicall I think we can agree that beyond obedience there lies the place where the sub/slave has a deep and driving need to please the dominant in every way possible, where the sub tries to anticipate the desires of the dominant, and where obedience is simply a natural reaction, not one that requires thought on the part of the one obeying.
To go "beyond obedience" basically means to fully embrace your role as a sub, to LIVE it such that it is simply who and what you are, not a role you slip into and out of. If you are your owner's property when he/she is not with you and has absolutely no way of knowing what you are doing, and you still obey..that is when you have gone "beyond obedience", when you obey when there is no chance of being found out and no possibility of punishment.


mmmmmm that's a really nice trap isn't it?

So let me get this straight.... a submissive that Accepts who they are (your words - "Fully embrace your role as a sub, to live it such that it is simply who and what you are")! will allow the submissive to go beyond obedience! And in this state they will not question what she is doing... just obey... No matter the circumstances! Even when their is no chance of being found out and no possibility of punishment the submissive obeys.

Now, since you have linked Acceptance of self to Obedience! what you are saying is! If you accept yourself (Being a submissive), You will OBEY! mmmmm this isn't much different than - IF YOUR SUBMISSIVE - You will do as I say!

There is a hugh distinction between Self-Acceptance and Obedience! Linking the two in this manner is very linear thinking and a trap to submissives. I am sure alot of Dominants would like it this way... but I hope submissives are little more complex than this linear thinking!


edit for spelling error



RavenMuse -> RE: beyond Obedience (2/2/2006 12:39:27 PM)

Maybe I'm reading between the lines on Arpig's post. Reading it again the words aren't there but I got the impression he was talking about a situation where the submissive had found the right master to take her 'beyond obedience', with all the depth of feeling and building of trust that would entail.

Not just any shmuck that happened to lable himself as Dom.



KnightofMists -> RE: beyond Obedience (2/2/2006 12:45:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse

Maybe I'm reading between the lines on Arpig's post. Reading it again the words aren't there but I got the impression he was talking about a situation where the submissive had found the right master to take her 'beyond obedience', with all the depth of feeling and building of trust that would entail.



mmmmmmm and just how does that change anything? Linking Self-Acceptance with obedience is still a trap to a submissive no matter if it's a long-term relationship or a new one.



RavenMuse -> RE: beyond Obedience (2/2/2006 12:48:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
mmmmmmm and just how does that change anything? Linking Self-Acceptance with obedience is still a trap to a submissive no matter if it's a long-term relationship or a new one.


If it is someone with a need to submit, then isn't part of accepting themself, accepting that need?



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