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RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. - 4/24/2009 5:30:13 AM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

   Why the assumption that they would have gone quietly?  Without the agressive stance and "mad glint in the eye" reputation that Reagan brought, who is to say the USSR might not have decided to mug their neighbors to the west?


....why the assumption that they wouldn't go quietly? When civilisations fall they tend to implode, not explode.

The idea that Soviet generals were just champing at the bit to invade Western Europe is just a hangover from Cold War propaganda films.

So lets table the idea that Reagan beat the Soviets........at the same time as he was apparently doing that he was also funding mass murdering terrorists in Nicaragua. Bit like OBL really.........what's the lives of a few civilians balanced against winning an ideological war?


It's absolutely ridiculous. The USSR was just as terrified of America as America was scared of the USSR. The depiction of the "Evil Empire" ready to pounce on good and righteous America is straight ouf the Western movies good guys/bad guys dichotomy *sigh*. How sad that, even with the hindsight and the distance, some are still blinded by the propaganda.

Reagan didn't win the Cold War: the Cold War disappeared because the Berlin Wall fell down - and as far as I know, Reagan had little, if nothing, to do with that. But some people would rather we forget that empires tend to auto-destruct.

It's interesting to read the American perspectives on Reagan. I like that it's divided: it shows that some people weren't blinded by his acting skills.

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Profile   Post #: 141
RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. - 4/24/2009 5:38:41 AM   
MarsBonfire


Posts: 1034
Joined: 3/6/2005
Status: offline 		The Cold War: was the "war" that special effects won. Literally! Ronnie announced Star Wars, and had all sorts of animated and special effects films made demonstrating the concepts of this missile sheild to the world. The Soviets, already stretched to the economic breaking point, collapsed when they realized that they'd have to spend a hefty fraction of their income on getting around these proposed systems...

Nevermind none of the tech actually worked... or was a good 50 years away from deployment, (if ever) due to it's complexity....

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Profile   Post #: 142
RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. - 4/24/2009 5:52:56 AM   
Raiikun


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

There were numerous factors that contributed to the Soviet Union's demise.

To attribute that to Reagan alone is the epitome of revisionism.




To be fair though - ANY war has numerous factors that contribute to it's outcome.

To say "So and so won that war" doesn't deny those numerous factors, and thus it's perfectly reasonable to say Reagan won the Cold War without it denying the numerous factors that helped him win it.

To say "Reagan won the Cold War" is NOT attributing it to Reagan alone...to claim it does is one of the more insidious strawman arguments out there.

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Profile   Post #: 143
RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. - 4/24/2009 6:18:50 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

There were numerous factors that contributed to the Soviet Union's demise.

To attribute that to Reagan alone is the epitome of revisionism.




To be fair though - ANY war has numerous factors that contribute to it's outcome.

To say "So and so won that war" doesn't deny those numerous factors, and thus it's perfectly reasonable to say Reagan won the Cold War without it denying the numerous factors that helped him win it.

To say "Reagan won the Cold War" is NOT attributing it to Reagan alone...to claim it does is one of the more insidious strawman arguments out there.


No, the strawman argument is saying it in the first place.

Look at what you just wrote. 

It may not be attributing it to him alone but it is still giving him primary credit, and while I have said before on this thread that he did contribute significantly there were far more people who played a greater role and other events that overshadowed anything he did.

He encouraged events set in motion by others.  And I'm not belittling his efforts, but he was not the reason the Soviet Union fell.

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Profile   Post #: 144
RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. - 4/24/2009 6:35:58 AM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun
quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

There were numerous factors that contributed to the Soviet Union's demise.

To attribute that to Reagan alone is the epitome of revisionism.



To be fair though - ANY war has numerous factors that contribute to it's outcome.

To say "So and so won that war" doesn't deny those numerous factors, and thus it's perfectly reasonable to say Reagan won the Cold War without it denying the numerous factors that helped him win it.

To say "Reagan won the Cold War" is NOT attributing it to Reagan alone...to claim it does is one of the more insidious strawman arguments out there.

No, the strawman argument is saying it in the first place.

Look at what you just wrote. 

It may not be attributing it to him alone but it is still giving him primary credit, and while I have said before on this thread that he did contribute significantly there were far more people who played a greater role and other events that overshadowed anything he did.

He encouraged events set in motion by others.  And I'm not belittling his efforts, but he was not the reason the Soviet Union fell.

As I have written, Reagan had little to do with 'winning' the cold war. Reagan won the lottery of life being elected, then another when Carter's admin. had negoiated the release of our diplomatic people held as Iranian hostages only to see them held until Reagan took office and then won the lottery again when...

after Carter had put up with all of the liberal demonstrations and vitriol, actually got Pershing II intermediate range NUCLEAR misslies installed, on the ground in Europe.

If you wish to be informed, one must read ALL of the history and according to career CIA field agents and many of their bosses...The RUSSIANS were NOT coming...period.

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Profile   Post #: 145
RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. - 4/24/2009 6:49:20 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

If you wish to be informed, one must read ALL of the history and according to career CIA field agents and many of their bosses...The RUSSIANS were NOT coming...period.


?

I don't believe I said, or even implied, that they were.

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Profile   Post #: 146
RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. - 4/24/2009 6:51:39 AM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

If you wish to be informed, one must read ALL of the history and according to career CIA field agents and many of their bosses...The RUSSIANS were NOT coming...period.


?

I don't believe I said, or even implied, that they were.



Thank god for that. The rest of the world saw that as a country, America thought that 'they' were coming. The culture was (is) so paranoid.

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Profile   Post #: 147
RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. - 4/24/2009 9:11:47 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		Yup,Ronnie single handedly defeated the soviets.

They still claim it was b/c the Ruskies folded under the pressure of Ronnies arms race.Even after we now know the soviets weren`t even in the race to begin with.

We spent all that money and made all that nuclear pollution(from bomb making) racing a paper tiger that wasn`t even in the race.All borrowed money, btw.

Just found this.66 unflatering things/facts about RR.

The firing of the air traffic controllers, winnable nuclear war, recallable nuclear missiles, trees that cause pollution, Elliott Abrams lying to Congress, ketchup as a vegetable, colluding with Guatemalan thugs, pardons for F.B.I. lawbreakers, voodoo economics, budget deficits, toasts to Ferdinand Marcos, public housing cutbacks, redbaiting the nuclear freeze movement, James Watt,Getting cozy with Argentine fascist generals, tax credits for segregated schools, disinformation campaigns, "homeless by choice," Manuel Noriega, falling wages, the HUD scandal, air raids on Libya, "constructive engagement" with apartheid South Africa, United States Information Agency blacklists of liberal speakers, attacks on OSHA and workplace safety, the invasion of Grenada, assassination manuals, Nancy's astrologer,drug tests, lie detector tests, Fawn Hall, female appointees (8 percent), mining harbors, the S&L scandal, 239 dead U.S. troops in Beirut, Al Haig "in control," silence on AIDS, food-stamp reductions, Debategate, White House shredding, Jonas Savimbi, tax cuts for the rich, "mistakes were made."
Michael Deaver's conviction for influence peddling, Lyn Nofziger's conviction for influence peddling, Caspar Weinberger's five-count indictment, Ed Meese ("You don't have many suspects who are innocent of a crime"), Donald Regan (women don't "understand throw-weights"), education cuts, massacres in El Salvador.
"The bombing begins in five minutes," $640 Pentagon toilet seats, African-American judicial appointees (1.9 percent), Reader's Digest, C.I.A.-sponsored car-bombing in Lebanon (more than eighty civilians killed), 200 officials accused of wrongdoing, William Casey, Iran/contra. "Facts are stupid things," three-by-five cards, the MX missile, Bitburg, S.D.I., Robert Bork, naps, Teflon.

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Profile   Post #: 148
RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. - 4/24/2009 9:33:26 AM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Since we're on the subject of Reagan, I'd really appreciate some background on the reasons why he is remembered with such reverence.


   Perhaps you could ask someone in the former East Germany, Kitten?  They might have some insights for you.


Funny you should mention that. My ex was half German, half Russian, and spent her entire adolescence in East Berlin. Both of us being politically-minded, we often discussed that very issue. And she (along with her friends and family) regarded Reagan with a mix of  disgust, contempt, revulsion, and outright horror that a country as supposedly civilized as the United States would elect such a shallow, bellicose, willfully ignorant ideologue as their President. They were a rather reserved, taciturn bunch, but the idea that this simple-minded, slogan-chanting wannabe cowboy was any sort of catalyst for the social, political, and economic changes that swept through their two countries would invariably provoke gales of bellowing laughter whenever it was suggested. To them, it was just further evidence that the average American has absolutely no clue what the world is really like outside our borders.

< Message edited by ThatDamnedPanda -- 4/24/2009 9:45:41 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 149
RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. - 4/24/2009 10:12:06 AM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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Joined: 1/26/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Is that stuff still around?...He was the kind of guy you could disagree with his policies but you could not help liking him.



Oh, I had no problem disliking him.

Intensely.

Passionately.

No problem at all.



Yea.. but did you like Death Vally Days?



Well, yeah. But I give credit for the success of that series to Nikita Khrushchev, and his visit to 20th Century Fox Studios in Los Angeles in 1959.


_____________________________

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In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?


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Profile   Post #: 150
RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. - 4/24/2009 11:27:36 AM   
Raiikun


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

No, the strawman argument is saying it in the first place.


No, a strawman argument is making up a position the other person never claimed; like you did when you accused him of attributing the end of the cold war to Reagan alone, when he never said that.

quote:



It may not be attributing it to him alone but it is still giving him primary credit, and while I have said before on this thread that he did contribute significantly there were far more people who played a greater role and other events that overshadowed anything he did.

He encouraged events set in motion by others.  And I'm not belittling his efforts, but he was not the reason the Soviet Union fell.



Then argue that; that's a more fair argument.

But you saying - "Really, all by himself huh?

Well he certainly lived up to his cowboy movie actor image then...."

That was the strawman, and was all I was pointing out.

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Profile   Post #: 151
RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. - 4/24/2009 11:50:11 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

No, a strawman argument is making up a position the other person never claimed; like you did when you accused him of attributing the end of the cold war to Reagan alone, when he never said that.



Actually, that's precisely what Heretic implied.

quote:

Heretic

quote:

 kittinSol

Since we're on the subject of Reagan, I'd really appreciate some background on the reasons why he is remembered with such reverence.



    Perhaps you could ask someone in the former East Germany, Kitten?  They might have some insights for you.



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Profile   Post #: 152
RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. - 4/25/2009 8:03:13 AM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		          Oh hell.  I just can't resist this...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Just found this.66 unflatering things/facts about RR.

The firing of the air traffic controllers,
Damn right.  I wish we had more politicians with the balls to take on the public employee unions.
winnable nuclear war,
That bluff raised the stakes nicely
recallable nuclear missiles,
and again
trees that cause pollution,
Hehehe.  Open mouth, insert foot. 
Elliott Abrams lying to Congress,
Find me an administration that hasn't lied to Congress
ketchup as a vegetable,
Ok.  Tomatoes are a fruit.  One.
colluding with Guatemalan thugs,
Welcome to global realpolitik 101
pardons for F.B.I. lawbreakers,
After Clinton, do we really want to bring up pardons?
voodoo economics,
A nifty talking point phrase
budget deficits,
Seen the budget plans from the current administration?
toasts to Ferdinand Marcos,
Welcome to global realpolitik 102
public housing cutbacks,
Damn right.  Stop building slums
redbaiting the nuclear freeze movement
Right.  Now they are all about pushing their agenda in the global-warming movement.
James Watt,
An idiot in the cabinet.  Got an administration without at least one?
Getting cozy with Argentine fascist generals,
Welcome to global realpolitik 103
tax credits for segregated schools,
That's some racebaiting spin on making decent private schools more affordable.
disinformation campaigns,
Welcome to domestic realpolitik 101
"homeless by choice,"
And what percentage of the homeless are addicts?
Manuel Noriega,
You mean the whacko dictator who declared war on the US in 1989?
falling wages,
And a boom in entrepenuerism
the HUD scandal,
An administration (longer than 100 days please) without a department fucking up?
air raids on Libya,
FUCK yeah!  Bomb our troops in a nightclub, we'll bomb your tent in the desert.  It worked, too.
"constructive engagement" with apartheid South Africa,
Talking to people we don't like is bad again?
United States Information Agency blacklists of liberal speakers,
Hmm.  I must have missed that one.  Any kind of censorship tends to piss me off.
attacks on OSHA and workplace safety,
The unions didn't like it when he wouldn't kiss their asses.
the invasion of Grenada,
Well done
assassination manuals,
Welcome to global realpolitik 201...  Are you cleared for this class?
Nancy's astrologer,
Ye Gods, that woman... 




     Ok.  Time for more coffee.  To be continued.

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Profile   Post #: 153
RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. - 4/25/2009 8:18:06 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		Here`s another reason ....

RNC head Michael Steele snubs the RAC (Religious Action Committee)`s national meeting where he was to speak,to go see a movie.

lol

Not good.



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"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

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Profile   Post #: 154
RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. - 4/25/2009 8:24:36 AM   
Sanity


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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
Censorship, as is described in this article?

quote:

United States Information Agency blacklists of liberal speakers,
Hmm. I must have missed that one. Any kind of censorship tends to piss me off.


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Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

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Profile   Post #: 155
RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. - 4/25/2009 8:32:38 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		That`s just the dems finally get savvy to GOP dirty tricks,like swiftboating and other forms of intellectual mugging.

Kudos.

It`s about time.


_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

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Profile   Post #: 156
RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. - 4/25/2009 8:38:56 AM   
DarkSteven


Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline 		Folks, I thought the thread was about the GOP unraveling, not the thread itself...

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The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

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Profile   Post #: 157
RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. - 4/25/2009 8:44:51 AM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		Before posting that link sanity,you might have googled the name Christopher Monckton....interesting fellow...with an agenda of his own.Perhaps Congress decided they had no need to hear from him being as his credentials are a bit ,shall we say,flawed.It's cool though it supports your partisanship so why bother looking further just run with it ,post the link and hope no one bothers to check.Brilliant strategy!!!!!
Let me make it easier for you sanity,here's the link to Monckton's google bio  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Monckton,_3rd_Viscount_Monckton_of_Brenchley 
Read it,pay particular attention to his views on AIDS and his suggested response to the problem.Than come back and tell us if you beleive your Congress should allow this man the forum of Congressional testimony.

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Profile   Post #: 158
RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. - 4/25/2009 9:37:14 AM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		      Alrighty then.  Where were we? 

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
drug tests,
Continuing and expanding the failed drug policy.  It's about time this list hit something.
lie detector tests,
Yep.  That's creepy.  Wow.  First nothing, then two in a row.
Fawn Hall,
She was HOT! 
female appointees (8 percent),
Not an affirmative action shop.
mining harbors,
You have to take a lie detector test to be cleared for this topic
the S&L scandal,
And the lesson went unlearned...
239 dead U.S. troops in Beirut,
Welcome to global realpolitik 201b - Fuckups
Al Haig "in control,"
Now that was an awkward moment
silence on AIDS,
It took the death of someone he knew before that sunk in.
food-stamp reductions,
Fighting welfare fraud and abuse.  I'm in.
Debategate,
What a ridiculous word.
White House shredding,
Reagan skateboarded???
Jonas Savimbi,
Who?
tax cuts for the rich,
Kinda motivates people to start businesses and try to get that way.
"mistakes were made."
Mea culpa's are only noble when Dems speak them, huh?
Michael Deaver's conviction for influence peddling,
Corruption is ubiquitous
Lyn Nofziger's conviction for influence peddling,
see above
Caspar Weinberger's five-count indictment,
Yeah, that Iran-Contra thing was a mess.  Neat idea, though.
Ed Meese ("You don't have many suspects who are innocent of a crime"),
What is disgusting pig, he was.
Donald Regan (women don't "understand throw-weights"),
What?  An official said something dumb???  Let me look shocked!
education cuts,
Let's never try to tinker with a failing policy...
massacres in El Salvador.
Horrible
"The bombing begins in five minutes,"
Microphone gaff, or as faked as Jesse Jackson saying he wanted Obamas nuts?
$640 Pentagon toilet seats,
Hehehe.  That wasn't such a great hiding place for the F-117 budget, was it?
African-American judicial appointees (1.9 percent),
And that might have been all the conservative black judges on the list.
Reader's Digest,
Huh? 
C.I.A.-sponsored car-bombing in Lebanon (more than eighty civilians killed),
Was that before or after the barracks bombing?
200 officials accused of wrongdoing,
That's a lot of accusations.  Kinda like this list.
William Casey,
Leon Panetta?
Iran/contra.
That blew up in their faces.  Not the Bay of Pigs, mind you, but a big backfire.
"Facts are stupid things,"
There are three kinds of lies.  Lies, damn lies, and statistics.
three-by-five cards,
Teleprompters?  Do you really want to go there?
the MX missile,
Kept the stakes high with the USSR
Bitburg,
Dumb planning in the PR department.  It happens.
S.D.I.,
The biggest raise in the game with the Soviets.
Robert Bork,
A nominee the other side hated.  That never happens...
naps,
He was old
Teflon.
Nothing sticks.  Perhaps because most of what is getting flung is air and spin?



     

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 159
RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. - 4/25/2009 9:48:31 AM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

Folks, I thought the thread was about the GOP unraveling, not the thread itself...



         Reagan was the central figure in what knit and defined the modern GOP.  Seems like his legacy, and how it is defined, would play a role in the "unraveling."

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to DarkSteven)
Profile   Post #: 160
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