RE: friend or dominant, which comes first... gender based?

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RE: friend or dominant, which comes first... gender based? - 4/23/2009 5:42:44 PM

LadyHibiscus

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I think that goes back to how differently men and women are socialized to value sex. Good points, Marie!

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RE: friend or dominant, which comes first... gender based? - 4/23/2009 5:58:12 PM

Lockit

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See this is what I am seeing. The sex seems to be something expected right away with many men because they want it but also because they use it to become intimate. At least that seems the way it works with many I have seen or known and what many have said. I have had those quick things years ago and longer periods before anything sexual and I am not going to change how I do things because of this expectation some men may have.

But I was wondering if it is the nature of the beast in a sense or if quick sex became an expectation when society changed. Think of how many women feel they have to give it up or the guy will leave and find someone who will.

I don't mean to men bash here. I really do want to understand more. I think there are a lot of things that play into it all. Yet, I will be damned if I am going to put out to get something! lol I simply don't want to yell, wanker... when it is something else.

More later...

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RE: friend or dominant, which comes first... gender based? - 4/23/2009 5:59:26 PM

PeonForHer

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My interpretation, which may or may not be right, is that many men want to establish the dynamic from the beginning so they know how to behave and don't stumble over the roles and expectations.

Hmm. As I've said, I wouldn't and couldn't try to establish the dynamic from the beginning but at some point I certainly would want to know what's expected regarding how I should behave, what the roles are supposed to be, and so on. That sort of thing I'd want as clear as possible in my head . . .

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RE: friend or dominant, which comes first... gender based? - 4/23/2009 6:02:15 PM

LadyHibiscus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

My interpretation, which may or may not be right, is that many men want to establish the dynamic from the beginning so they know how to behave and don't stumble over the roles and expectations.

Hmm. As I've said, I wouldn't and couldn't try to establish the dynamic from the beginning but at some point I certainly would want to know what's expected regarding how I should behave, what the roles are supposed to be, and so on. That sort of thing I'd want as clear as possible in my head . . .

I think "that point" would become apparent, once a connection was proved.

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RE: friend or dominant, which comes first... gender based? - 4/23/2009 6:16:44 PM

Lockit

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I have seen where a lot of submissive men try to establish some d/s in hopes that it will quickly evolve into the sexual things they want. When that doesn't happen, they are disappointed and are wanting to find someone else. I will do a pre- consideration to a consideration (lol) sometimes to figure out where their head is and will establish some rules or guidelines so there is no confussion. But most often it is a time where I am testing them to see what motivates them. It sure gets us through a lot faster and I waste less time.

Now in person and not meeting online and such, I find things different. I get the respect and am hardly ever pushed for more. They see I am dominant in personality even if they don't know of d/s or bdsm. I've got a lil cutie that is vanilla, but I can see a bit of the submissive in him and he is someone I have done business with in a vanilla sense. He will do things for me for free and says he just wants me happy. If he can see something that needs to be done right away and is around, he shows up and fixes it. I set the playing field and men in person even if they want the sex and all... are much more respectful about things. Even vanilla know I call the shots.

But years ago... the men seemed to want to get the sex first and move into something rather than start as friends.

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RE: friend or dominant, which comes first... gender based? - 4/23/2009 6:34:11 PM

beargonewild

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

I have seen where a lot of submissive men try to establish some d/s in hopes that it will quickly evolve into the sexual things they want. When that doesn't happen, they are disappointed and are wanting to find someone else. I will do a pre- consideration to a consideration (lol) sometimes to figure out where their head is and will establish some rules or guidelines so there is no confussion. But most often it is a time where I am testing them to see what motivates them. It sure gets us through a lot faster and I waste less time.

In this I think I am one of the few who upon meeting a potential dom, that the sex isn't something which I expect right off the bat. I've always felt more comfortable getting to know that person first and having them get to know me, this includes interests in and outside the bedroom. Granted there have been a few times where the main objective was sex though that was the sole purpose to meeting up in the first place and is completely different when meeting someone one the understanding that we are meeting to see if there's enough compatibility to start a friendship with the intent of it progressing to a deeper relationship when the sex will naturally become part of the equation.

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RE: friend or dominant, which comes first... gender based? - 4/23/2009 6:47:59 PM

PeonForHer

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Lockit, to be blunt, I think the chances are small that the sorts of men you're talking about are going to respond to you on this thread. They're men who want to move past the words and into the 'action', from the sound of it. They probably wouldn't even be reading this thread, unfortunately.

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RE: friend or dominant, which comes first... gender based? - 4/23/2009 6:52:35 PM

Lockit

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No... some are reading... They aren't talking, but they are reading! lol I have some ghosties...

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RE: friend or dominant, which comes first... gender based? - 4/23/2009 7:03:37 PM

ShaktiSama

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Just a Fast Reply:

The only successful long-term relationships I have had, regardless of the orientation and gender of people involved, were those that started off as friendships. It is more than possible to have mutual attraction from the beginning and simply put it aside while you get to know someone. Eventually when you feel ready, you move to the next stage.

I realize that I am probably a bad match for people of other sex who want their fantasy of being victimized or dehumanized to be more realistic, and who are not capable of being friends with their dominant. Doesn't bother me. My personal slave is a person that I end up spending a lot of time with. I don't want someone that close to me who doesn't love and care for me on multiple levels.

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RE: friend or dominant, which comes first... gender based? - 4/23/2009 7:05:53 PM

PeonForHer

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Then, if they won't talk to you or any of the other women here, I wish they'd talk to me - because whatever suspicions they might have to the contrary, I genuinely don't understand them.

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RE: friend or dominant, which comes first... gender based? - 4/23/2009 7:15:54 PM

Andalusite

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I've had a few friendships blossom into BDSM-oriented relationships, including the one in which I was a Domme for almost 5 years. However, once they expressed an interest, or with people I started dating when we met or shortly afterward, I *needed* to do at least mild play (ie. hairpulling, biting, wrestling around a little) in order to determine chemistry. If I haven't done so by the 3rd date or so, the window for developing chemistry seems to close for me, and I just am no longer interested in more than friendship. People start out neutral for me sexually until we touch each other that way. Also, I've had a few guys want to start out as friends, and then develop a relationship, by which they mean being fuckbuddies, fwb's or ongoing playpartners. I already have a lot of friends, and a few people I could play with casually if I were so inclined. The only people I want to play with now are ones I'm dating with a view to developing a relationship, or possibly couples who I can co-top with to practice some skills that I'm a bit rustier on, and develop new ones, since I was a submissive for the past few years.

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RE: friend or dominant, which comes first... gender based? - 4/23/2009 7:30:20 PM

LadyPact

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I think the conversation is turning a bit. Domination is now being equated with sex and that is not necessarily the case for all of us. Intimacy is also not an interchangeable word for sex.

While what you say is true, Lockit, that some want to rush into the sexual part of it, that isn't an absolute. In fact, there was very little sexual gratification for clip either by My hand or design prior to his collaring. The boy never even saw Me naked prior to his consummation of the same. (Yes, I'm old school and hold with the theory that sexual service, at least in some forms, comes with the collar.) For time frame reference, that's roughly six months. Something of a long wait by most people's standards.

Sexuality can be a form of establishing power within D/s, but I tend to find those situations where it's the premise of the power don't work out too well for Me. Half of the people on this planet have a pussy. It's not special. Sure, it can be used for manipulation, but I don't see that as Dominance. That's just a female getting what she wants because the male is hoping to get the sex that he wants in return. (By the way, I don't especially consider that "submission" either.)

One thing I thought about adding in My earlier reply, but didn't include, I'd like to add now. I think the answers you're going to get to this question are going to vary according to the relationship goal that people have in mind. People looking for a mate of some kind through D/s, I believe, are going to put more emphasis on the establishing friendship first. I'm led to think that will be even stronger for those who are monogamous, looking for life partners. For those of us who already have those needs met, we don't need to seek them out.

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RE: friend or dominant, which comes first... gender based? - 4/23/2009 7:46:01 PM

Lockit

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Great post LadyPact! Thank you!

I will add... I agree that dominance for me isn't about sexual things. It can be enhanced with sensual things and will be a part of my relationships, but not right away for the reasons you have given and a few more. lol Now.. there have been a couple times I did things differently and I might consider a change, but that is very rare.

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RE: friend or dominant, which comes first... gender based? - 4/23/2009 7:57:03 PM

MzMia

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Then, if they won't talk to you or any of the other women here, I wish they'd talk to me - because whatever suspicions they might have to the contrary, I genuinely don't understand them.

I can actually help you out with this question, kevin.
I have been here over 4 years and the majority of the men that I have
chatted with either never come to the boards or don't post on them.
I have met many that enjoy reading, but just don't want to post.
I have chatted with a few that enjoy "lurking" here but never post.

Now as far as the topic? I stopped having casual relationships about 20 years ago.
*Actually, even from the age of even 15 I always wanted a friendship and a relationship,
I just was "willing" to settle in my tender years."

Then I took a long hard look at my life, and realized (about 18-20 years ago), that relationships that are not built on a solid friendship, are crazy making for ME.

So I just can't do them.
If someone can't or won't take the time to become my friend first, I can't take or won't
take the time to even consider a relationship.
I would not want a relationship with someone that wanted an intimate relationship with
a stranger, in this day and age.
Can you say, ewww?

This question is not an "issue" for me, since no friendship FIRST = No BDSM relationship,
no touchy/feelies.

< Message edited by MzMia -- 4/23/2009 8:25:43 PM >

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RE: friend or dominant, which comes first... gender based? - 4/23/2009 8:17:44 PM

ShaktiSama

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

I think the conversation is turning a bit. Domination is now being equated with sex and that is not necessarily the case for all of us. Intimacy is also not an interchangeable word for sex.

No, especially not if you're already married to a third party who provides the sex and the intimacy, leaving you to seek outside the relationship solely to fulfill your sadistic and dominant urges.

I am not trying to invalidate this sort of polyamory as a lifestyle. But I do think it's important to point out that in many cases where a woman has a co-dominant or vanilla male husband, she is "compartmentalizing" her orientation and her sexual and emotional needs in ways that women who live 24/7 with a submissive as their primary partner do not.

The separation you propose between dominance and sex, dominance and intimacy is arbritrary. Many dominant and submissives do not and cannot make this distinction. Being dominated or receiving pain in any way IS sexual for some submissives, to the degree that they would feel that they were "cheating" on their partners if they worshipped someone else's boots or received a beating from another dominant at a club. Some vanilla men feel they are "cheating" on their wives if they go to a club and pay for a lap dance, as well, so this is not confined to D/S by any means.

In any case, I think the issue of whether you want friendship before D/S or before any other kind of sex is a pretty good indicator of how disposable you want your relationships to be at the moment. I think many men of all orientations are often looking for disposable relationships with women, and view women as a commodity rather than as human beings. They want a woman the same way they want a cheeseburger--fast, hot, and easy.

Guys like this are a good match for women who want disposable men, but not for people who are looking for real bonds and partnerships. Personally, I have gone through phases of my life where I was very interested in disposable men, so I am not in any position to judge anyone either way! But I can honestly say that when I was looking at a man as a means to slaking my appetite, rather than as a person, I wasn't interested in much "getting to know ya". He was a Dixie cup, I was thirsty, end of story.

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RE: friend or dominant, which comes first... gender based? - 4/23/2009 9:09:42 PM

marie2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama

In any case, I think the issue of whether you want friendship before D/S or before any other kind of sex is a pretty good indicator of how disposable you want your relationships to be at the moment.

I have to agree strongly with this, on both counts whether it's just about sex, ds, or a combination of the two.

With many dominant men (or at least the ones I've dealt with) it is usually the combination of both the sex and the dominance that they want right away, as it sort of comes as a "package". And I've come to have a hard time especially dealing with the dominance straight from the gate. When I see this now, I really begin to wonder anymore what the hell he's trying to hide and why he just won't let me see him as a human being first instead of forcing me to see him as "Sir". In situations where ds has been pushed from the start I've noticed that it always turns into either a short-term fling, or a longer term relationship that turns out to be dysfunctional and lacking in true intimacy.
I've seen this in both my own experiences as well as those of friends and other submissives. Of course there are exceptions, but I think there's a common thread here.

< Message edited by marie2 -- 4/23/2009 9:19:49 PM >

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RE: friend or dominant, which comes first... gender based? - 4/23/2009 9:14:14 PM

LadyPact

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Shatki, I'm afraid we have found, yet again, another area in life where we do not agree. Where you find the impossibility to distinguish the two illogical, I see it as not being ruled by physical sex. Just because some can not make the distinction does not mean that there aren't some of us who can.

While I get where you are coming from about having the fall back of sex and intimacy with a primary partner, therefore not needing it to be fulfilled through D/s, I would have to say that it misses the mark. My first D/s dynamic was neither disposable, nor sexual. Only half of the two years that I've had clip as a submissive has My husband actually been in the same house for. I have very little issue being celibate by choice.

Yes, the sadism in this is a great equalizer. I won't deny that. S/m is sexual to some. In fact, it can be for Me, but it's not necessarily so. What you give in the above example about worshiping another Dominants boots could be linked just as quickly to loyalty and devotion, as it could to sexuality. Some people see submission the way some see sex. That it should belong where it has been promised.

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RE: friend or dominant, which comes first... gender based? - 4/23/2009 9:29:42 PM

MistressTaboo

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Some men bond after sex. Some don't.
I like to be able to talk to my subs outside of the scene...so normally we are friends first.
The only exception to the rule is my husband...we were sleeping together on the 2nd date...but I hadn't planned on keeping him...I was just test driving him to see where he needed to improve...fell in love with my own creation.

I also like to sit down with my partners and go this is what I'm looking for this is what I expect and lay all our cards on the table to see where every one is...right now we are taking things very slow with my second under consideration. So slow I think we are in reverse some days (due to vanilla considerations) but we are definitely friends first. That being said there is some wonderful sexual tension underlying everything where we definitely know who the Domme is. But we are IRL.

I have a hard time even trying to Domme someone I've never met...so online doesn't do it for me. If they can't see the wicked gleam in my eye...how am I going to see the look of terror in theirs?

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RE: friend or dominant, which comes first... gender based? - 4/24/2009 5:20:29 AM

chezzy71

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MissLockit,if i am anything i am honest and wear my emotions on my sleeves.I am somewhat old school if you wish so i feel it is inherently wrong to base a relationship or even a friendship with frills on sex.I also feel it is wrong to base it just because one is a dominant and one is a submissive.Now is there inuendo that would make some feel uncomfortable at times???i am sure there is and i am guilty of that but i consider it a playful mode and not a wanking type of thing...nor do i expect the inuendo to be acted out which is also wrong.it takes a long time if you really care about someone to understand what they need in their lives and what they expect and what their dreams are and so on.i think that is the beauty of learning about another.sometimes the bar is set ridiculously high but there should be no compromise on what to expect and what is desired and what is needed to sustain the health in a friendship/relationship.i do not know if i will ever marry again once i am out of my current one.but there is nothing that says you can't fall in love with someone again once you have gone through the process.i don't see life nowadays as i once viewed it in the late 60's and early 70's when you could walk up to most women and get the jollies off.i was much younger then and naive and knew little.i guess that is my answer to your question.you just grow with time and understand and mature more.one thing that hasn't changed...anyone step on my toes and you are done.i don't give second chances which means if i screw up,i don't deserve one either.

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RE: friend or dominant, which comes first... gender based? - 4/24/2009 7:45:25 AM

thetammyjo

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I sort of understand where you are coming from, Lockit, but while I became friends with most of the people I trained over the years, I was never friends with them first.

I knew them in the local community, I could gauge their seriousness on some level and they gauged my knowledge, experience, and respect enough to want me train them. We were not friends however with the exception of one person this past decade.

Of course I use the term "friend" very selectively. If I attend the same munch as you, for example, for three years and we see each other once a month at the munch and chat there, we aren't friends by my definition, we are simply munch buddies.

Once the time and interactions needed to move into "friend" definition happens, the odds are very high that I will have zero interest in that person as a sub or even to train. Mentor as a fellow top, great, done that, too, but not for training which is always my first step toward any personal Ds dynamic.

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