RE: How can a subbie survive in a happy/vanilla marriage?

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ShaktiSama -> RE: How can a subbie survive in a happy/vanilla marriage? (4/29/2009 7:43:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady In my experience, the majority of men are incapable of contemplating that their wives don't want to have sex with them because he is unable to satisfy her. Or because she simply doesn't feel emotionally and physically safe with him (or perhaps with any man) anymore. Sometimes satisfaction doesn't become an issue because the woman just can't get past a psychological barrier. Or because she is suffering from a malady like depression, thyroid problems, etc. which would be easily treatable if someone would just give a damn enough to keep going to different doctors until you find one who cares enough about women's health to treat her. If there was one truth that I could drum into the head of all the heterosexual men on this planet simultaneously, and simply have it accepted as a fact, it would be this: there is no such thing as "frigidity" or "natural" disinterest in sex, for adult women of any age. A woman does NOT lose her interest in sex unless she has either physical problems, psychological/emotional problems, or BOTH. Ergo, if your wife/partner is not interested in sex, something is wrong. She is suffering from a physical, emotional/psychological or stress-related malady, and as the husband there is a very good chance that you are either the primary cause or at best a co-factor in not helping to find a solution. If you love the woman and you wonder where the hell the woman you fell in love with went, figure out what the hell is wrong, with the help of doctors, therapists, and plan old fashioned talking. And get it fixed.

azjojoba -> RE: How can a subbie survive in a happy/vanilla marriage? (4/29/2009 8:12:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama quote: ORIGINAL: azjojoba I thought they would be more open minded and sexually liberated. Not sure what open minds and sexual liberation have to do with being a liar and betraying people who care about you, but sure, whatever. If being "open-minded" and "liberated" means that lying cheating douchebags suddenly aren't lying cheating douchebags, and black is white, up is down, etc., then by all means, write us off as "prudes" because we don't practice Manson Family Values. Don't you think your quip about "Manson Family Values" is going off the deep end? Seriously, where do you come up with this stuff? Actually I think Manson might agree with you on the marriage thing more than he would agree with me. You can bet that he would never allow any of his fanatical followers to play around outside of his family. Manson was very big on loyalty -- just like you. So, Ms. Krenwinkel, you blew your identity. [8\|] I think that "liberated" and "open-minded" go together, but you obviously don't. Of course I'm assuming you consider yourself liberated, which might not be the case. Ms. Krenwinkel certainly considered herself liberated also.

ShaktiSama -> RE: How can a subbie survive in a happy/vanilla marriage? (4/29/2009 8:20:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: azjojoba I think that "liberated" and "open-minded" go together, but you obviously don't. I think they go together as well, I just don't see what either one of them has to do with being a lying cheating douchebag. Sexual liberation is not a carte blanche to hurt others. The fact that you do not consider sex itself to be immoral does not mean that there are no rules at all, and that other people's feelings don't matter. I'm going to block you now, because I consider you an annoying troll and I don't think you have anything positive or interesting to contribute to these forums. I've said all that needs to be said about your views and attitude. I'd say "have a nice life", but I think you have the life that you deserve. I just feel very sorry for the woman who married you.

SylvereApLeanan -> RE: How can a subbie survive in a happy/vanilla marriage? (4/29/2009 8:48:30 PM)
There's a lot of ground here, so I'm going to break this up for the sake of clarity. Please bear with me. quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady Looking at what we know, he has claimed to tell her about his desires, and she told him that it wasn't for her. What we don't know is how he brought up the subject and this plays a key role. We don't know whether he said something like "Honey, I'd really like you to take control of me sometimes. I want you to tell me how to please you and I want you to take your pleasure from me without worrying about how I feel" or if it was closer to "I want you to tie me up and beat me with a rubber hose until my ass looks like a roadmap of Chile." The approach is important. If he used the latter style, no wonder she was turned off. She might be more willing to experiment if a counselor helped him learn to communicate more effectively. Or maybe he just said, "hey honey, what would you think about trying BDSM one of these days?" In that case, she might have had a misconception about exactly what it is he wanted. Maybe she thought he wanted to tie her up instead of the other way 'round. Or maybe it just didn't excite her so she dismissed the idea without comprehending exactly how important it is to him. There's no way to know without asking her. Clearly he isn't a reliable source of information. quote: He also states that they are not having sex in any form . When a couple stops having sex, there is always a reason. But we don't know what that reason is. Maybe she got tired of The Two Minute Wonder and decided her vibrator was a better lover. Maybe she has a chronic health condition that needs treatment. Again, he isn't the most reliable source of information here. I can't begin to speculate about the situation without talking to her. All I can do is address his actions and his thought patterns. quote: The unwillingness to divorce is rarely because there is something salvagable in the marriage (a dozen years working in family law will teach you that). The reason usually comes back to financial, but is equally blamed on staying for the sake of the kids (as if this is good for them). I call bullshit on this. Not on your experience, I have no doubt it's accurate, but on the people who make such claims. If they aren't separating, it's because there is a need being met. It might be a totally dysfunctional need, but it's being met nonetheless. When my exhusband and I separated, I had no job, no place to live, and a toddler to support. I lived with family and worked temp jobs until I could afford to move into my own apartment. I saved for three years before I could afford the retainer for a good lawyer but I certainly didn't live with my ex for that time. Usually, if a couple is staying together even when the marriage is gasping its last breath, then it's because of fear. A counselor will either help them overcome the fear and they will end their marriage, thereby solving the problem, or the therapist will help them repair what is broken and salvage the relationship. quote: Realistically if she is also getting her needs met elsewhere, while they are still cheating, they have given implied consent, and no one should be asking what to do here. True enough, but we don't and can't know her position without asking her. quote: My point is that from all that has been stated here is that both have communicated their position, needs and desires to each other and I think it is unfair and somewhat chauvenistic to say that SHE is the one that needs to concede to his desires. I question whether or that's accurate. From his track record here, he's clearly not adept at communication. And, as I mentioned earlier, I don't consider him a reliable source of information. I seriously doubt that his wife knows much of anything about his submissive tendencies or what he's been doing to assuage them. quote: Would we tell a woman whose husband came home one day and told her that from now on she would be his slave with no power or control of her own or accept that he will own other slaves whether she likes it or not that she needs to aquiesce to his desire? I don't think so. Nor would we tell a man that if his wife came home with the same demands (although he would probably hit the road on his own anyway). Actually, I would give anyone the same advice I gave him: Go see a marriage counselor and get help communicating your needs. Tell your partner what you need and what you want from them. If you've been cheating, say so and, if you plan to continue cheating if your partner doesn't consent to meet your needs or allow you to get them met somewhere else, be honest about that too. quote: My main point was that it is only reasonable to look at this in a non-gender specific way, and I don't think you did that. I find it hard to believe, as a strong, intelligent woman, you would have the same position if the roles and genders were reversed. From my perspective, I did look at it in a gender-neutral way or possibly even in a female dominant way, but I understand why you might not have realized it. If you think about it, once he gives her the relevant information, all the power is hers. He must then wait for her to make a decision. If she decides to end the relationship, that's her prerogative. If she doesn't, that's also her prerogative. She gets to make the rules she's willing to live with and he must accept them or negotiate for something else. Either way, she's exerting control over him and over the relationship. quote: Believe it or not, it is probably more common in the vanilla world than this one, they just refer to it differently, as an "open marriage". Oddly, I'm exceptionally aware of it. I just finished a presentation on polyamory for one of my writing classes and I'm scheduled to do another one for a local kink group in June. I've got dozens of books and scholarly articles about non-monogamy sitting on my desk as I type this. quote: Being dishonest and disloyal because you don't get your way is never an honorable thing to do. No, it isn't. And sometimes honesty isn't pretty or fun. That doesn't mean he should continue to lie just because he doesn't want to face the consequences or because he thinks he's "sparing her feelings." My point was that he's got to stop lying and get some help to communicate with his wife. Like you, she will have to take responsibility for her own choices, but they are hers to make. All he can do is be forthright about himself and his own actions. The rest is up to her.

DemonKia -> RE: How can a subbie survive in a happy/vanilla marriage? (4/29/2009 10:45:55 PM)
FR Ah, goodie. I have contributions to make here. - First. To the OP & those who are similarly plighted: I'm sorry if somewhere along the way you came to believe that life comes without hard choices & real pain. & plenty of discomfort. & the necessity of change & growth. All of which is expressed in your story, & is how it is. shrugs . . . . So I'll tell you. Life sucks. There are no guarantees. Growth & change happen. & in the end, you die, alone, even if surrounded by people. - & a side note: You boys are just as given to romantic silly notions of love as women are always gettin' accused of (yes, I'm a sexist pig, duly noted) . .. . . Love does not mean it all works out in the end, love is only one piece of the bridge we build to get where we're going, only one layer of strata in the road of our lives . . . . . & love cannot keep you from being trapped between a rock & a hard spot, indeed, love is frequently a motive for ending up in such tight situations . . . .. . - Okay, the thing I wanted to say in the other conversation going on in this thread: Long looooooooooooong before I was kinky I was cheater-averse . . .. . . Follow. I want loyal partnership. If guy A will cheat on his girlfriend with me, then it's highly probable that he will cheat on me with someone else, later, down the chain. (Similar reasoning applies if we place 'lying' in the place of 'cheating', please note.) I don't like those odds. I think that I should be worshipped as an incarnation of deity, with steadfast devotion. &, mind, that was before I got in touch with my kinky self. It turns out, for me, that this preference for a fairly rigorous level of honesty & personal integrity & lots of communication & intimacy & trust & all of these interlocked things that I value so much in my prior vanilla experiences? It turns out all those things are even more important in BDSM relationship, which is yet another reason I like kink. But, again, long before I got 'into' BDSM most of the females I've known have been cheater-averse, it's pretty common . .... It's why so many of us are so good at 'spotting' the 'hidden marrieds', it's why we're so hung up on wedding rings & those little tan lines they leave, & all the other marks of the 'secretly married' guys who troll us all the time in every walk of life -- if we let 'em . . . . . . - & ladies, & gentlemen, as to the possible futility of answering the same questions over & over, a coupla thoughts: lots of eyes & ears are here, far more than the few handfuls of dozens of us exuberantly outspoken types . . . . & there's a coupla quotes that comes to mind: Whatever you do may seem insignificant to you, but it is most important that you do it. - Mohandas Gandhi All labor that uplifts humanity has dignity and importance and should be undertaken with painstaking excellence. - Martin Luther King, Jr. Sometimes the universe seems to just want us to do & say things over & over; maybe the universe is crazy . .. . lol

LadyPact -> RE: How can a subbie survive in a happy/vanilla marriage? (4/30/2009 3:21:46 AM)
I'm not going to quote the entire reply for just the one statement. I'm simply going to point out that, whether BDSM is incorporated or not, there is a huge difference between an open relationship and poly. In an open marriage, each spouse has the consent of the other to pursue intimate relationships with others. Poly, especially poly fi folks, only have intimate relationships with those within that poly structure.

LafayetteLady -> RE: How can a subbie survive in a happy/vanilla marriage? (4/30/2009 7:58:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact I'm not going to quote the entire reply for just the one statement. I'm simply going to point out that, whether BDSM is incorporated or not, there is a huge difference between an open relationship and poly. In an open marriage, each spouse has the consent of the other to pursue intimate relationships with others. Poly, especially poly fi folks, only have intimate relationships with those within that poly structure. You are, of course, completely correct. I guess I was merely pointing out that something quite close to poly exists to a great degree in the "vanilla" world with open marriages and swapping and those people don't typically consider themselves to be "kinky" in the sense that those of us here consider it. My apologies for not being clear and possibly offending any of you who successfully and happily live in poly households.

LadyPact -> RE: How can a subbie survive in a happy/vanilla marriage? (4/30/2009 8:33:23 AM)
Thank you. I wasn't offended. I just had a concern that the two terms might been seen as synonymous and be misleading. With the rest of your comments being so articulate and intelligently crafted (as well as those of SylvereApLeann's) I wouldn't want a misunderstanding to take place. For one, I'm enjoying the discussion.

LafayetteLady -> RE: How can a subbie survive in a happy/vanilla marriage? (4/30/2009 8:44:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan What we don't know is how he brought up the subject and this plays a key role. We don't know whether he said something like "Honey, I'd really like you to take control of me sometimes. I want you to tell me how to please you and I want you to take your pleasure from me without worrying about how I feel" or if it was closer to "I want you to tie me up and beat me with a rubber hose until my ass looks like a roadmap of Chile." The approach is important. If he used the latter style, no wonder she was turned off. She might be more willing to experiment if a counselor helped him learn to communicate more effectively. Or maybe he just said, "hey honey, what would you think about trying BDSM one of these days?" In that case, she might have had a misconception about exactly what it is he wanted. Maybe she thought he wanted to tie her up instead of the other way 'round. Or maybe it just didn't excite her so she dismissed the idea without comprehending exactly how important it is to him. There's no way to know without asking her. Clearly he isn't a reliable source of information. You are quite correct. Is it me, or do men, as a general rule, have difficulty with that whole "communication" thing? quote: ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan But we don't know what that reason is. Maybe she got tired of The Two Minute Wonder and decided her vibrator was a better lover. Maybe she has a chronic health condition that needs treatment. Again, he isn't the most reliable source of information here. I can't begin to speculate about the situation without talking to her. All I can do is address his actions and his thought patterns. Again, you are correct, and that was my point. Men need to start to realize that quite often we stop having sex with you because we aren't getting out of it what we want and can't be bothered to do it just for them anymore. quote: ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan I call bullshit on this. Not on your experience, I have no doubt it's accurate, but on the people who make such claims. If they aren't separating, it's because there is a need being met. It might be a totally dysfunctional need, but it's being met nonetheless. When my exhusband and I separated, I had no job, no place to live, and a toddler to support. I lived with family and worked temp jobs until I could afford to move into my own apartment. I saved for three years before I could afford the retainer for a good lawyer but I certainly didn't live with my ex for that time. Usually, if a couple is staying together even when the marriage is gasping its last breath, then it's because of fear. A counselor will either help them overcome the fear and they will end their marriage, thereby solving the problem, or the therapist will help them repair what is broken and salvage the relationship. And I have often advised people to do just what you did. I guess that their not doing so, can be chalked up to fear on one hand. But from a legal standpoint, it can be very counterproductive to leave the marital home and there are times when that is not adviseable. Sadly, for many people, even with counselling, they would be "celebrating" their golden anniversary before developing the balls to walk, both male and female. I was similar to you in the fact that when I was done with my marriage, I was done. But I know people who can't seem to do that. One for fear of being alone (admittedly this one makes me crazy), one for a very real fear of losing her home (I am working with her on ways to get HIM out of the house so that that doesn't happen) and another who while they are now living separately, I have advised NOT to file for divorce because the one who files pays the filing fee which is much larger than the cost of responding and negates the ability to qualify for legal aid in this state. Sadly, sometimes divorce needs to be strategically played to minimize the ugliness (hard as that is to believe). quote: ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan I question whether or that's accurate. From his track record here, he's clearly not adept at communication. And, as I mentioned earlier, I don't consider him a reliable source of information. I seriously doubt that his wife knows much of anything about his submissive tendencies or what he's been doing to assuage them. Very true. Even though I am very aware of the fact that people rarely, if ever, state the facts completely as they are, I tend to take what they say somewhat at face value and believe they have communicated to their partner at least something about what they want. I do try to keep from doing that, but... quote: ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan Actually, I would give anyone the same advice I gave him: Go see a marriage counselor and get help communicating your needs. Tell your partner what you need and what you want from them. If you've been cheating, say so and, if you plan to continue cheating if your partner doesn't consent to meet your needs or allow you to get them met somewhere else, be honest about that too. Brings us back to the inability to communicate effectively. While women tend to communicate more than men, I have also seen my fair share of women who think their male partner should just "know" things and behave accordingly. I know a man who can't remember birthdays, anniversaries and such. His partner regularly got mad because of this. We dated for a while, and I solved the problem by reminding him fo these events. We worked out an agreement that he couldn't get mad about my reminding him and then he had no excuse that he "forgot" quote: ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan From my perspective, I did look at it in a gender-neutral way or possibly even in a female dominant way, but I understand why you might not have realized it. If you think about it, once he gives her the relevant information, all the power is hers. He must then wait for her to make a decision. If she decides to end the relationship, that's her prerogative. If she doesn't, that's also her prerogative. She gets to make the rules she's willing to live with and he must accept them or negotiate for something else. Either way, she's exerting control over him and over the relationship. I think part of the problem with these particular types of situations, with submissive husbands, in my opinion, they aren't getting the kinky sex part met. Because it just seems to me that the wives' refusal is, in a sense, them being very controlling over the relationship. I just get so annoyed hearing the complaint of "I want/need and it isn't being met" but then they refuse to do much more than complain about it rather than take action with any number of possibilities. I am all for people talking to others in search of a solution. I am not all for them continuing to whine when they refuse to like any of the options. quote: ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan Oddly, I'm exceptionally aware of it. I just finished a presentation on polyamory for one of my writing classes and I'm scheduled to do another one for a local kink group in June. I've got dozens of books and scholarly articles about non-monogamy sitting on my desk as I type this. Again, I know I would never be happy in a non monogamous relationship. But I also believe that as long as everyone involved in the situation is aware, content and happy with it, then it isn't my place to judge. Although I have issues with the religious sects who practice polygamy, but I think that's because the females are not given any choice from birth as to what their lives will become. quote: ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan No, it isn't. And sometimes honesty isn't pretty or fun. That doesn't mean he should continue to lie just because he doesn't want to face the consequences or because he thinks he's "sparing her feelings." My point was that he's got to stop lying and get some help to communicate with his wife. Like you, she will have to take responsibility for her own choices, but they are hers to make. All he can do is be forthright about himself and his own actions. The rest is up to her. Guess that is the whole problem in a nutshell though, huh?

Andalusite -> RE: How can a subbie survive in a happy/vanilla marriage? (4/30/2009 8:46:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: azjojoba I think that "liberated" and "open-minded" go together, but you obviously don't. Of course I'm assuming you consider yourself liberated, which might not be the case. . I've heard a joke about the blonde moaning "Lie to me Pinocchio, lie to me!" but most women don't get turned on by liars! Personally, I'm pretty openminded, but not to the point where my brains are falling out! If a guy is cheating, he's dishonorable, and I don't want to get involved with him romantically. If his partner is fine with what he's doing, he isn't cheating.

SylvereApLeanan -> RE: How can a subbie survive in a happy/vanilla marriage? (4/30/2009 12:05:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady You are quite correct. Is it me, or do men, as a general rule, have difficulty with that whole "communication" thing? It's definitely not you but I also don't think it's limited to men. Some of the worst communicators I know are women. Women have a tendency to read things into simple statements. Never mind what you actually said, what they hear has taken a left turn and is halfway down the block before you realize there was a misunderstanding. quote: Again, you are correct, and that was my point. Men need to start to realize that quite often we stop having sex with you because we aren't getting out of it what we want and can't be bothered to do it just for them anymore. Or, in some cases, because we have other priorities that must come first and we're not getting any help from them. Stress is the anti-Viagra for women. quote: And I have often advised people to do just what you did. I guess that their not doing so, can be chalked up to fear on one hand. But from a legal standpoint, it can be very counterproductive to leave the marital home and there are times when that is not adviseable. I don't doubt that. For me, it was a matter of which is the lesser of evils? I chose to leave because I couldn't bear to stay. My masochistic streak is more like a thread and I was not going to put myself through the torture anymore. quote: Sadly, sometimes divorce needs to be strategically played to minimize the ugliness (hard as that is to believe). No joke. In my state, it's better to be the filer than the respondant. The filer tends to get what they want in terms of custody and support. I worked my bum off to make sure I filed first. quote: Very true. Even though I am very aware of the fact that people rarely, if ever, state the facts completely as they are, I tend to take what they say somewhat at face value and believe they have communicated to their partner at least something about what they want. I do try to keep from doing that, but... I hear ya. I'm just way too cynical for that. I'm naturally inclined toward misanthropy. I rarely trust what people say, particularly where relationships are concerned. Talk is cheap, as it were. What a person does is so much more informative. quote: Brings us back to the inability to communicate effectively. While women tend to communicate more than men, I have also seen my fair share of women who think their male partner should just "know" things and behave accordingly. No argument there. The problem is partly cultural. We are taught that one day Prince Charming will ride up on his noble steed and sweep us away to a land of never-ending happiness where love conquers all. Yeaaaa....no. We aren't taught to communicate effectively or to take responsibility for getting our needs met. In the U.S., in particular, there's a huge sense of entitlement that is also hugely false. We want to take a pill, push a button, turn a knob, and be served exactly what we think we want. We don't want to work for it. We all fall into this trap occasionally, some of us are just better at getting out of it and back to doing the work of living consciously. The rest stay stuck. quote: I think part of the problem with these particular types of situations, with submissive husbands, in my opinion, they aren't getting the kinky sex part met. Because it just seems to me that the wives' refusal is, in a sense, them being very controlling over the relationship. I'm not sure how much control the wife is exerting. A lot of women are taught that "nice girls don't do those things" and people who do are abnormal. She could just as easily be afraid to take the reins and would rather he be the leader as deliberately controlling the relationship. Heck, for all we know, he married another sub. Women are also taught either that the man is supposed to be head of the household or that it should be an equal partnership. What we aren't taught is that equality does not necessarily equal symetry. We don't have to be exactly the same in every aspect of our lives in order to be treated equitably. She might not grasp that being the boss doesn't mean she's treating him poorly. Again, counseling could potentially help with this. quote: I just get so annoyed hearing the complaint of "I want/need and it isn't being met" but then they refuse to do much more than complain about it rather than take action with any number of possibilities. I am all for people talking to others in search of a solution. I am not all for them continuing to whine when they refuse to like any of the options. No argument here, either. I will always be grateful to my father for teaching me this. When I was 17, he told me "you're an adult. You can do what you want, but it means you have to face the consequences of your actions. Don't be stupid and then come to me to bail you out." He never treated me like a dumb kid after that and I've worked to live up to his faith in me. Not always successfully, but all we can do is our best. I'm always surprised and confused when people don't seem to know this little fact of life. quote: Again, I know I would never be happy in a non monogamous relationship. But I also believe that as long as everyone involved in the situation is aware, content and happy with it, then it isn't my place to judge. Maybe his wife will make the same choice. There's no way to know. I've tried monogamy and it just doesn't work. It's completely unnatural for me, but I know it's not that way for everyone. I just wish more people would make a conscious choice instead of being forced into monogamy as the default option. I think a lot more people would be poly if we were not socially conditioned to think of monogamy as the only legitimate option and required by law to accept it. I agree with you -- no one should be forced into a relationship paradigm that doesn't fit. However, everyone should be allowed to practice the type of lovestyle that works best, even if it's not monogamy. quote: ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan All he can do is be forthright about himself and his own actions. Guess that is the whole problem in a nutshell though, huh? Pretty much.

AAkasha -> RE: How can a subbie survive in a happy/vanilla marriage? (4/30/2009 1:02:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact I'm not going to quote the entire reply for just the one statement. I'm simply going to point out that, whether BDSM is incorporated or not, there is a huge difference between an open relationship and poly. In an open marriage, each spouse has the consent of the other to pursue intimate relationships with others. Poly, especially poly fi folks, only have intimate relationships with those within that poly structure. And there's also something to be said for couples where one person is "open" and the other is not, but both are still honest with each other. I have desires for other partners and my partner does not. We have a one-way open relationship; I enjoy some liberties that he does not, but he chooses not to. That said, I could probably navigate dishonest extramarital liaisons with relative ease and avoid the sometimes uncomfortable discussions and compromises that come from negotiating my outside "affairs," and I also know I could cheat and there's little to no risk he would leave me. even if I got caught. However, because my morals and the importance of my relationship are more valuable to me than satisfying my primal urges, I choose to work with my partner together on solutions that are agreeable. And because I care more about his feelings and respect him too much to treat him like crap. It means sometimes I don't get it all my way (even though "I'm the femdom"), but I prefer that to cheating or just living in half truths, even though I could do that if I wanted to. Akasha

SylvereApLeanan -> RE: How can a subbie survive in a happy/vanilla marriage? (4/30/2009 1:28:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact I'm not going to quote the entire reply for just the one statement. I'm simply going to point out that, whether BDSM is incorporated or not, there is a huge difference between an open relationship and poly. In an open marriage, each spouse has the consent of the other to pursue intimate relationships with others. Poly, especially poly fi folks, only have intimate relationships with those within that poly structure. I have to disagree. "Open Marriage" is one form of polyamory. Polifidelity is another. All polyamory means is that there are multiple loving relationships taking place simultaneously. What you're describing is a "closed" poly structure. However, there are plenty of "open" structures within the poly community and those individuals consider themselves polyamorous. I'm aware of a few married couples that consider each other "secondary" partners and have other relationships that are "primary." How those co-marital relationships are formed -- whether the married couple forms them independently of each other or in close consultation with each other -- depends entirely on the married couple's preferences. Don't mistake closed polyamory for the "correct" form of polyamory or think that an open structure is a different beast altogether. Neither assumption would be accurate.

LafayetteLady -> RE: How can a subbie survive in a happy/vanilla marriage? (4/30/2009 9:02:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan It's definitely not you but I also don't think it's limited to men. Some of the worst communicators I know are women. Women have a tendency to read things into simple statements. Never mind what you actually said, what they hear has taken a left turn and is halfway down the block before you realize there was a misunderstanding. Men and women communicating (or more accurately NOT communicating) has been a problem since the dawn of time in all likelihood. Reminds me of the man asking the woman why she is angry with him and her telling him that if he loved her he would know. I don't know where we get the idea that loving someone also means you need to have ESP. On the other hand, how many times does that happen where the guy has repeatedly been told a certain behavior causes the problem, yet he repeated it yet again. I'll go out on a limb and say that must be a lot less likely in a femdom relationship, but still... quote: Or, in some cases, because we have other priorities that must come first and we're not getting any help from them. Stress is the anti-Viagra for women. Oddly, when I am very stressed, sex becomes something I need even more! quote: No joke. In my state, it's better to be the filer than the respondant. The filer tends to get what they want in terms of custody and support. I worked my bum off to make sure I filed first. Yours is not a state whose divorce laws I am familiar with. In most states, when a couple separates (as in living apart), whoever has had custody of the child since that split will retain it. Every state has a formula for calculating child support, differing in each state, changing only when justification is properly made to increase or decrease. When it comes to alimony, I don't think any state has a formula, in no fault states (like NJ where I am), a big consideration is the length of the marriage, the age of the parties, and the marital lifestyle. Where "fault" can be applied, the rules change considerably, but most states have tried to move away from the lifetime alimony (other than for those who are very wealthy, i.e. celebrities with non celebrity spouses, and those who are past an age where they will likely be able to obtain significant employment after a very long term marriage of not working). quote: I'm not sure how much control the wife is exerting. A lot of women are taught that "nice girls don't do those things" and people who do are abnormal. She could just as easily be afraid to take the reins and would rather he be the leader as deliberately controlling the relationship. Heck, for all we know, he married another sub. Perhaps I was being a bit sarcastic. He claims he is sub and wants her to rule him. Her choice is to not give him what he wants. She is ruling him, just not how he wants. I hate the term "topping from the bottom", but in this case I was sarcastically implying that was the case. He wished for her to be in charge and she was by not giving in. quote: I just wish more people would make a conscious choice instead of being forced into monogamy as the default option. I think a lot more people would be poly if we were not socially conditioned to think of monogamy as the only legitimate option and required by law to accept it. I agree with you -- no one should be forced into a relationship paradigm that doesn't fit. However, everyone should be allowed to practice the type of lovestyle that works best, even if it's not monogamy. I only see it as being "forced" if the partner who is not happy with the situation doesn't change it. Even though I identify primarily submissive in relationships, I recognize that I am also selfish in my relationships in that I do not want to share my partner with someone else. Everyone talks about BDSM people being more "open minded" and "liberated", but most of my experience with it has shown that we are simply more in touch with our own wants and needs and ballsy enough to seek it out. Saying our choices make us more liberated and open minded isn't checking our morals at the door and far too many seem to think that is what it is.

SylvereApLeanan -> RE: How can a subbie survive in a happy/vanilla marriage? (4/30/2009 9:57:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady Men and women communicating (or more accurately NOT communicating) has been a problem since the dawn of time in all likelihood. Reminds me of the man asking the woman why she is angry with him and her telling him that if he loved her he would know. I don't know where we get the idea that loving someone also means you need to have ESP. Don't I know it. I tell all my partners "my telepathy is very limited -- and you're out of range." Effective communication doesn't seem to be part of many people's skill set. It takes practice and sometimes you need to take lessons. Sometimes, I think an interpersonal communication class should be mandatory before anyone is issued a marriage license. quote: On the other hand, how many times does that happen where the guy has repeatedly been told a certain behavior causes the problem, yet he repeated it yet again. I'll go out on a limb and say that must be a lot less likely in a femdom relationship, but still... Don't go too far out on that limb. Some guys just don't listen. I guess they can't hear anything over the sound of blood rushing to their nether regions. quote: Oddly, when I am very stressed, sex becomes something I need even more! Okay, I'll stand corrected. For me, stress kills my libido. quote: Yours is not a state whose divorce laws I am familiar with. In most states, when a couple separates (as in living apart), whoever has had custody of the child since that split will retain it. Every state has a formula for calculating child support, differing in each state, changing only when justification is properly made to increase or decrease. When it comes to alimony, I don't think any state has a formula, in no fault states (like NJ where I am), a big consideration is the length of the marriage, the age of the parties, and the marital lifestyle. I don't know a lot about divorce law but I had a strange situation. My ex and I were living in another state when we split and then returned to this one because we both had family here. However, he threatened me with physical violence attempted to abduct our son in the process so it got weird. I was told it would be better for me if I filed for divorce than if I was served. I may have misunderstood the exact reasons why being the petitioner would be better for me. quote: Perhaps I was being a bit sarcastic. I hate the term "topping from the bottom", but in this case I was sarcastically implying that was the case. Ah, okay. I missed the sarcasm; my bad. quote: I only see it as being "forced" if the partner who is not happy with the situation doesn't change it. I call it "forced" because of the laws forbidding anything but monogamous relationships. Only legal spouses or registered domestic partners are acknowledged as legitimate for everything from health insurance to inheritance laws and a person can only have one legally recognized partner at a time. When the laws of the land coerce monogamy, it sets up a social paradigm that prohibits freedom of choice. This can lead to people thinking they can't change their situations, so not only do they stay in relationships that don't work, they keep repeating the same mistakes in the relationships that follow. quote: Everyone talks about BDSM people being more "open minded" and "liberated", but most of my experience with it has shown that we are simply more in touch with our own wants and needs and ballsy enough to seek it out. Saying our choices make us more liberated and open minded isn't checking our morals at the door and far too many seem to think that is what it is. I can see kinksters as liberated if one uses the definition that we recognize our right to personal freedom means we do not need to be bound by cultural sexual mores. However, open-minded is not an adjective I would use to describe kinksters as a group. Some kinksters, sure. Most, not so much. Some of the most sexist, racist, ageist, misogynistic, or otherwise bigoted people I've ever encountered are kinky. At least half of them are on this site. I definitely agree with you -- integrity and upholding ethical standards does not equal narrow-mindedness. I don't think the lack of integrity necessarily has anything to do with interest in BDSM or the lack thereof. I think it's more to do with lack of character on the part of the people acting unethically.

LafayetteLady -> RE: How can a subbie survive in a happy/vanilla marriage? (5/1/2009 7:26:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan Don't go too far out on that limb. Some guys just don't listen. I guess they can't hear anything over the sound of blood rushing to their nether regions. I was talking about the concept that since they would typically be punished for repeating the bad behavior over and over again, that like Palov's dog, they are more likely to learn from their mistakes. quote: I don't know a lot about divorce law but I had a strange situation. My ex and I were living in another state when we split and then returned to this one because we both had family here. However, he threatened me with physical violence attempted to abduct our son in the process so it got weird. I was told it would be better for me if I filed for divorce than if I was served. I may have misunderstood the exact reasons why being the petitioner would be better for me. In your case, leaving was the only safe and practical option. Sometimes in cases like that being the Petitioner (in NJ, we still use the terms Plaintiff and Defendant) is to beat your abuser to the "punch" (pardon the pun) before they have the ability to sling mud at you that you get caught up defending. I'm very sorry you went through such a thing. Still strategic, and the right strategy. People tend to stop thinking when they are dissolving a marriage, getting all caught up in the "who did what." Sadly, many lawyers play into this and help the divorce drag on. After all, the longer the divorce lasts, the more money they make. Thankfully, many states require mediation with an independant mediator and alternate dispute resolution to try to minimize those things. quote: I call it "forced" because of the laws forbidding anything but monogamous relationships. Only legal spouses or registered domestic partners are acknowledged as legitimate for everything from health insurance to inheritance laws and a person can only have one legally recognized partner at a time. When the laws of the land coerce monogamy, it sets up a social paradigm that prohibits freedom of choice. This can lead to people thinking they can't change their situations, so not only do they stay in relationships that don't work, they keep repeating the same mistakes in the relationships that follow. You need to consider though the repurcussions of allowing more than monogamous relationships. Healthcare costs are already financially prohibitive for many people in this country, imagine trying to provide health care for multiple partners. Or how many people would enter into such relationships as a means of aquiring health care. As for inheritance laws, a spouse is entitled to 1/3 of the estate, and cannot be disinherited. Imagine how crazy it would be with many spouses! For those who had small estates, it would almost negate the need for a will because there is only so far it can be divided up. It is an interesting concept, and I admit it makes me wonder how all the polygamists recently in the news with 15-20 spouses and 40-50 kids handle the division of their estates. quote: I can see kinksters as liberated if one uses the definition that we recognize our right to personal freedom means we do not need to be bound by cultural sexual mores. However, open-minded is not an adjective I would use to describe kinksters as a group. Some kinksters, sure. Most, not so much. Some of the most sexist, racist, ageist, misogynistic, or otherwise bigoted people I've ever encountered are kinky. At least half of them are on this site. I definitely agree with you -- integrity and upholding ethical standards does not equal narrow-mindedness. I don't think the lack of integrity necessarily has anything to do with interest in BDSM or the lack thereof. I think it's more to do with lack of character on the part of the people acting unethically. Weird, isn't it? So many people in the "lifestyle" seem more prone to trying to dictate HOW you need to practice your kink. I just don't get it. Is it me, or is BDSM attract those lacking character more than other groups? Before anyone slams me, it seems it also attracts more people of higher intelligence as well.

SylvereApLeanan -> RE: How can a subbie survive in a happy/vanilla marriage? (5/1/2009 10:59:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady I was talking about the concept that since they would typically be punished for repeating the bad behavior over and over again, that like Palov's dog, they are more likely to learn from their mistakes. You'd think so, but not always. It depends on how serious the person is about serving. Some people think they're very serious about submitting but it turns out they lean more toward bottoming than genuine service. Or at least my idea of what that means. quote: You need to consider though the repurcussions of allowing more than monogamous relationships. Healthcare costs are already financially prohibitive for many people in this country, imagine trying to provide health care for multiple partners. Or how many people would enter into such relationships as a means of aquiring health care. The thing is, most health care providers have provisions for multiple dependents. There wouldn't be much difference between providing for multiple spouses and providing for spouse plus children. Alternately, providing health care for a plural marriage could be set up in the same way as a small business. In fact, some poly families apply for LLC status for this reason (among others). The rates are lower per partner than if each person bought insurance individually. The number of people entering into poly relationships just for the health care wouldn't be any higher than people entering monogamous marriages they don't particularly want just for the benefits. And there are plenty of those. quote: As for inheritance laws, a spouse is entitled to 1/3 of the estate, and cannot be disinherited. Unless you're in an Anna Nicole-type situation. Then you can be dragged to court for years on end before finally getting the money. Inheritance for multiple spouses has been commonplace in India and the Middle East for centuries. There's no reason it can't work here. The reality is that the Anti-Bigamy laws of the 1800's and the Defense of Marriage Act that specify a legal marriage can only be between one man and one woman were Congress's way of writing religious, sexual, and ethnic discrimination into law without appearing to violate the Constitution, even though that's exactly what they were doing. quote: Weird, isn't it? So many people in the "lifestyle" seem more prone to trying to dictate HOW you need to practice your kink. I just don't get it. Is it me, or is BDSM attract those lacking character more than other groups? Before anyone slams me, it seems it also attracts more people of higher intelligence as well. Strange and annoying, absolutely. I can understand telling people that things like breaking bones or cutting off body parts are a big, fat NO in "the lifestyle" but other than that, I don't see where people get off telling others they aren't True, or real, or whatever unless they meet XYZ requirements. I don't think BDSM attracts more people who lack character than any other subculture. However, it's a microcosm -- the smaller sample size gives the appearance of a higher concentration of idiots and assholes. I think individual kink communities (munches, message boards, etc.) have different dynamics. I'm part of Fet and LiveJournal communities and the dynamics for each of them are much different than the dynamic here. Then you have offline communities, which have a completely different feel than online.

LPslittleclip -> RE: How can a subbie survive in a happy/vanilla marriage? (5/2/2009 9:18:10 PM)
for the op if you feel that you have a need and your spouse is not able to fulfill it the with your spouse work on ways to have it met. only honest open communication will keep a relationship working. if you can convey how much the desire to be submissive is and your love for your spouse is strong then the 2 of you will find a mutually beneficial way of doing it. without cheating or lying. discuss what it is that appeals to you about being a sub are there things that you can transfer to her as well like the pampering thing. possibly role play or nonsexual service to another. the possibilities are as limitless as the imagination. you will never find the answer to the question you never ask .

LadyPact -> RE: How can a subbie survive in a happy/vanilla marriage? (5/4/2009 3:11:00 PM)
Though we've had our issues in this past month, lil one, I will agree with this. A good Dominant will be on the watch for those who can not, or will not, understand the needs of the primary relationship of any who serve. Anything less is not only a fool in the ways of protocol, but also ignorant of the situation as a whole.

LadyConstanze -> RE: How can a subbie survive in a happy/vanilla marriage? (5/4/2009 4:28:39 PM)
I think there were a couple of excellent suggestions, I liked what Sylvere suggested but would not automatically assume it will work. A very good friend of mine tried all that, but she doesn't like it at all, might be her upbringing, but she thinks if he is "pampering" her too much, she's not doing her duty as his wife. The closest he can get is to very rarely preparing a bath for her, even him massaging her has to lead to sex or else she feels odd and put out, let alone that she would allow him to massage her feet... The guy also loves her, would never leave her, but finds it terribly frustrating. He can't communicate to her that he wants to be chaste for her, well, he communicates but she feels that she's a failure as a wife if he doesn't have his orgasm. Some people are simply not wired for BDSM and the compromise is usually that the other person is unfulfilled or makes do with trying to get fulfillment out of little tasks like mowing the lawn and imagining she told him to...

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