quote:

ORIGINAL: aravain

google 'mistake of fact' as a defense for defamation... I can't provide links since I'm on my iPod =)

quote:

ORIGINAL: aravain

I thought it was only libel or slander if the person knew or had evidence to the contrary of what they say? An uninformed opinion that hurts you in some way isn't libel, isn't it defamation or some such?

The point being: if someone actually thinks it about someone without evidence to the contrary it's not technically slanderous or libel...

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse
And no, you didn't name names. I wasn't specifically talking about your exact words in this thread. I was thinking bigger picture. The dangers of slapping such dramatic and potentially horrid labels on people without any more evidence than gossip.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

a gray area in terms of...what? A ruined reputation? Parents fearful of allowing their children to play with the children of the one unfairly labeled? Passed over for deserved promotions at work? Ostracized by others? All because some blabbermouth states a diagnosis he has no business stating?

quote:

And as far as a medical diagnosis by a trained professional, i would hardly say it is a narrowly useful definition. Whereas it is common knowledge that medicine is (still) an inexact science, a diagnosis is a beginning for treatment.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

I will now try to distill my view on this down:

1. Many people have had bad experiences in their lives, for various (and generally personally valid) reasons. It's bad form to belittle these bad experiences; we've all experienced pain, and we all know what it's like when memories are still fresh and raw and bleeding with emotion.

2. Many people feel very, very strongly about these experiences, for various (and generally personally valid) reasons. It is natural to want to express these experiences to others.

3. Many people feel that the overwhelming intensity of their experiences cannot be expressed, except through words that share that level of intensity. When someone has been hurt - and hurt badly - it is natural to villainize the source of the pain, to a level proportional to the intensity of the pain itself. And some people feel things (including pain) very intensely, which is generally what makes them desirable and worthy companions in the first place.

4. Thus, it is natural to turn to words like "sociopath", or "pedophile", or "witch", because how else could I have been hurt so badly? And often, it even makes sense - she completely ignored my feelings, so she must be incapable of understanding feelings. He lied to me, so he must be a consummate liar. He manipulated me - me! - so he must be a master manipulator.

But! As natural as these tendencies are, they're often dangerous. They lock us into one narrow way of seeing our past, and prevent us from alternate, and potentially more useful interpretations. No one is an expert on their own memories. Especially when emotions get involved, it is impossible to evoke an accurate account of one's past. That's part of the purpose of emotions - to color and distort memory, so that we encode it into fast, responsive "lessons", instead of being paralyzed with indecision every time we see a lion. It's evolutionary biology: being terrified of lions makes you react faster to them when you see one. Similarly, being terrified of human predators, hopefully, makes you react faster to them when you see one. The problem with human predators is that they are far more clever than lions, and can exploit the very cognitive tricks that were designed to deal with predation.

The point being made, here, is that concepts like "sociopath" (and "pedophile" and "witch" and what-have-you) have rather narrow useful definitions, and a huge no-man's-land of "gray area" around them. And the "gray area" is so vast, that when you throw the labels around, you're far more likely to wind up in the no-man's-land than to arrive at an actually useful set of conclusions.

"I feel manipulated, and it really, really hurt. It feels like he always played everyone."

"I feel lied to, and I feel like he lied to others, and now I have so much trouble trusting anything anyone says."

"I feel treated like an object. I feel violated, like my consent was never considered."

All of these things are unequivocally true statements, describing someone's experiences. They are very useful for communicating to others how you feel, and they're even useful for communicating to yourself exactly what's going on inside you. Sometimes it helps to hear yourself say these things.


"He's a master manipulator; he manipulates everyone."

"He lies so much, he can't tell the difference between the truth and a lie."

"He has no concept that anyone but himself is a person."

All of these things are very colorful, emotional interpretation of those same experiences. They lock you into one narrow view of reality, and constrain you to a thin slice of possible solutions.

Yes, there are actual sociopaths out there. But most people aren't hollow, soulless monsters - they're just emotionally clumsy, short-sighted, and terrified that they'll be taken advantage of, or terrified that their needs won't get met. So they do stupid things, and they hurt each other, and they hurt themselves. And it's very, very sad to watch. But then we get convinced that they're monsters, because we're also emotionally clumsy, and short-sighted, and terrified that we'll be taken advantage of, or that our needs won't get met. So we do stupid things, and we hurt each other, and we hurt ourselves. And we propagate the cycle. And we forget to ask: "is calling this girl a sociopath expanding my options more than it's limiting them?" - because ultimately, it doesn't matter what someone "is"; it only matters how we react to, and grow from, our experiences. We can obsess over others or we can learn something about ourselves.

The wheel of samsara needs hands to crank it. We can let go if we wish.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JustStephen
Intelligence and perspective.

My thoughts... Someone who is mature, socially well adjusted and experienced in people and relationships (in the broadest sense) could interpret the actions of someone else's perceived sociopath as a individual lacking in social skills.

Stephen

quote:

ORIGINAL: LATEXBABY64

i am having a hanibal lector moment here  but please do continue I love arm chair experts  in field that takes a lifetime to master

be what ever do what ever you want but keep in mind  you are held accountable for these things one way or another
sooner or later a person  of mental disorder always messes up   just the way it is

quote:

ORIGINAL: phoenixrising43

Very good and insightful post!!!  It even makes sense and all.  

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

quote:

ORIGINAL: JustStephen
Intelligence and perspective.

My thoughts... Someone who is mature, socially well adjusted and experienced in people and relationships (in the broadest sense) could interpret the actions of someone else's perceived sociopath as a individual lacking in social skills.

Stephen

Exactly! Or someone backed into a corner, or someone responding to their own prior trauma. There are a thousand reasons why someone might cause another being harm. Why latch onto the least-forgivable explanations first?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Whiplashsmile4

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

Exactly! Or someone backed into a corner, or someone responding to their own prior trauma. There are a thousand reasons why someone might cause another being harm. Why latch onto the least-forgivable explanations first?

People that tend to latch onto the least-forgivable explainations, do so because it makes them feel better and justified about ending the relationship. It absolves them of any wrong doing in the back of their own mind.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

I will now try to distill my view on this down:

1. Many people have had bad experiences in their lives, for various (and generally personally valid) reasons. It's bad form to belittle these bad experiences; we've all experienced pain, and we all know what it's like when memories are still fresh and raw and bleeding with emotion.

2. Many people feel very, very strongly about these experiences, for various (and generally personally valid) reasons. It is natural to want to express these experiences to others.

3. Many people feel that the overwhelming intensity of their experiences cannot be expressed, except through words that share that level of intensity. When someone has been hurt - and hurt badly - it is natural to villainize the source of the pain, to a level proportional to the intensity of the pain itself. And some people feel things (including pain) very intensely, which is generally what makes them desirable and worthy companions in the first place.

4. Thus, it is natural to turn to words like "sociopath", or "pedophile", or "witch", because how else could I have been hurt so badly? And often, it even makes sense - she completely ignored my feelings, so she must be incapable of understanding feelings. He lied to me, so he must be a consummate liar. He manipulated me - me! - so he must be a master manipulator.

But! As natural as these tendencies are, they're often dangerous. They lock us into one narrow way of seeing our past, and prevent us from alternate, and potentially more useful interpretations. No one is an expert on their own memories. Especially when emotions get involved, it is impossible to evoke an accurate account of one's past. That's part of the purpose of emotions - to color and distort memory, so that we encode it into fast, responsive "lessons", instead of being paralyzed with indecision every time we see a lion. It's evolutionary biology: being terrified of lions makes you react faster to them when you see one. Similarly, being terrified of human predators, hopefully, makes you react faster to them when you see one. The problem with human predators is that they are far more clever than lions, and can exploit the very cognitive tricks that were designed to deal with predation.

The point being made, here, is that concepts like "sociopath" (and "pedophile" and "witch" and what-have-you) have rather narrow useful definitions, and a huge no-man's-land of "gray area" around them. And the "gray area" is so vast, that when you throw the labels around, you're far more likely to wind up in the no-man's-land than to arrive at an actually useful set of conclusions.

"I feel manipulated, and it really, really hurt. It feels like he always played everyone."

"I feel lied to, and I feel like he lied to others, and now I have so much trouble trusting anything anyone says."

"I feel treated like an object. I feel violated, like my consent was never considered."

All of these things are unequivocally true statements, describing someone's experiences. They are very useful for communicating to others how you feel, and they're even useful for communicating to yourself exactly what's going on inside you. Sometimes it helps to hear yourself say these things.


"He's a master manipulator; he manipulates everyone."

"He lies so much, he can't tell the difference between the truth and a lie."

"He has no concept that anyone but himself is a person."

All of these things are very colorful, emotional interpretation of those same experiences. They lock you into one narrow view of reality, and constrain you to a thin slice of possible solutions.

Yes, there are actual sociopaths out there. But most people aren't hollow, soulless monsters - they're just emotionally clumsy, short-sighted, and terrified that they'll be taken advantage of, or terrified that their needs won't get met. So they do stupid things, and they hurt each other, and they hurt themselves. And it's very, very sad to watch. But then we get convinced that they're monsters, because we're also emotionally clumsy, and short-sighted, and terrified that we'll be taken advantage of, or that our needs won't get met. So we do stupid things, and we hurt each other, and we hurt ourselves. And we propagate the cycle. And we forget to ask: "is calling this girl a sociopath expanding my options more than it's limiting them?" - because ultimately, it doesn't matter what someone "is"; it only matters how we react to, and grow from, our experiences. We can obsess over others or we can learn something about ourselves.

The wheel of samsara needs hands to crank it. We can let go if we wish.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Whiplashsmile4

Calling somebody a sociopath can be a bit like calling somebody a Witch in the old days of Salem, Ma., Is there such a thing as "Social Sadism" or "Group Collective Sadistic Mindset"?

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

Good to see you back around, dude.

quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2

quote:

ORIGINAL: Whiplashsmile4

Calling somebody a sociopath can be a bit like calling somebody a Witch in the old days of Salem, Ma., Is there such a thing as "Social Sadism" or "Group Collective Sadistic Mindset"?

Not sure it's comparable.  I think there are signs and symptoms of the various mental disorders.  I'm not saying the term sociopath, or any other mental disorder, should be thrown around lightly.  But is it really that crazy to be aware of some of the possible signs of such things in order to protect or prepare ourselves?  I'm not saying that we should go around diagnosing and labeling people, but I wouldn't turn a blind eye if someone put reputable reading material in front of me on the signs and behaviors of a sociopath. 

Does it matter what walk of life we are in?  Does it matter if it's bdsm or another type of relationship?   What if your doctor or dentist was a diagnosed sociopath, would you feel the same? Trust him as much?  Or at least think twice before letting them treat you? 

And I do think the bdsm/dom thing could have some importance,  as the submissive does put her physical welfare and safety in the dom's hands. I wonder how many submissives would feel comfortable being tied, gagged, and helpless at the hands of a diagnosed sociopath. 

While I agree words and accusations shouldn't be thrown around lightly, and while agree with a lot of the points that Ialdabaoth and others made, I don't think it's a good idea to take it to the other extreme either and pretend that mental disorders don't exist and that there is no difference between someone with a disorder and someone without.  

We wouldn't turn a deaf ear or a blind eye to any other information on any number of topics to educate ourselves, so why is everyone acting like it's politically incorrect to acknowledge and speak about mental disorders, and how or if they might apply to wiitwd?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

*bow* it is good to be back around. I'm experimenting, to see if I can interact with this environment without it going all silly.