RE: IRS agents hunting offshore tax cheats

RE: IRS agents hunting offshore tax cheats (Full Version)

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shannie -> RE: IRS agents hunting offshore tax cheats (4/30/2009 8:14:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Which is quite obviously not true. Simply reading the various senator's speeches during the ratification debate makes that clear even if you didn't know anything at all about the reason the 16th was put forward in the first place. I haven't studied this issue extensively, but I've read some excerpts from those speeches that seem to support that premise that the purpose of the amendment was to tax earnings from capital, and not earnings from wages.

DomKen -> RE: IRS agents hunting offshore tax cheats (4/30/2009 8:18:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: shannie quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Which is quite obviously not true. Simply reading the various senator's speeches during the ratification debate makes that clear even if you didn't know anything at all about the reason the 16th was put forward in the first place. I haven't studied this issue extensively, but I've read some excerpts from those speeches that seem to support that premise that the purpose of the amendment was to tax earnings from capital, and not earnings from wages. Then you read the fabrications and quote mines of the tax evasion movement. The debate was clearly about taxing income including wages. The previous income tax had just been declared unconstitutional and this was a conscious effort to produce an ammendment that would allow income of all sorts to be taxed.

shannie -> RE: IRS agents hunting offshore tax cheats (4/30/2009 8:36:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Then you read the fabrications and quote mines of the tax evasion movement. The debate was clearly about taxing income including wages. The previous income tax had just been declared unconstitutional and this was a conscious effort to produce an ammendment that would allow income of all sorts to be taxed. Yes, I haven't gone to the original source, so I can't be certain that the quotes are not fabricated or taken out of context. Of course, the question no legal merit whatsoever, but it's still interesting to know the history. Do you have quotes from the debates saying that "earnings from labor" were considered income?

shannie -> RE: IRS agents hunting offshore tax cheats (4/30/2009 8:58:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Then you read the fabrications and quote mines of the tax evasion movement. The debate was clearly about taxing income including wages. The previous income tax had just been declared unconstitutional and this was a conscious effort to produce an ammendment that would allow income of all sorts to be taxed. Here's a link to (what purports to be) the entire congressional record pertaining to the passage of the 16th Amendment: http://famguardian.org/TaxFreedom/History/Congress/1909-16thAmendCongrRecord.pdf

subfever -> RE: IRS agents hunting offshore tax cheats (4/30/2009 8:58:47 AM)
"Frivolous" is what the courts often throw at someone, when the representatives of the PTB cannot logically respond to tough questions. http://www.kickingthedragon.com/

DomKen -> RE: IRS agents hunting offshore tax cheats (4/30/2009 9:24:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: shannie quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Then you read the fabrications and quote mines of the tax evasion movement. The debate was clearly about taxing income including wages. The previous income tax had just been declared unconstitutional and this was a conscious effort to produce an ammendment that would allow income of all sorts to be taxed. Here's a link to (what purports to be) the entire congressional record pertaining to the passage of the 16th Amendment: http://famguardian.org/TaxFreedom/History/Congress/1909-16thAmendCongrRecord.pdf Can't say for sure it its complete but it does contain one of my favorite speeches for disproving the income doesn't equal wages claim. On page 167 of the PDF you will find a speech by a democratic congressman which includes this : "To my mind the income tax is the most equitable of all systems of taxation. It is the ideal way to support the Government. Let those who prosper little pay little, for they are least indebted to the Government; let those who prosper more pay more; let those who prosper most pay most; let those who prosper greatly pay greatly, for certainly they have been most blessed and are therefore most indebted to the Government." If income doesn't equal wages why would those who prosper little pay little? Surely if it wasn't on wages they would pay not at all?

subfever -> RE: IRS agents hunting offshore tax cheats (4/30/2009 9:35:49 AM)
The Democratic congressman seems to believe that the people are the servants of the government, instead of the government being the servant of the people.

DomKen -> RE: IRS agents hunting offshore tax cheats (4/30/2009 12:09:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subfever The Democratic congressman seems to believe that the people are the servants of the government, instead of the government being the servant of the people. Nice try at moving the goalposts. What was asked was "was the 16th ammendment meant to tax wages?" which the quote quite nicely proves that that was the general understanding at the time.

shannie -> RE: IRS agents hunting offshore tax cheats (4/30/2009 1:17:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen On page 167 of the PDF you will find a speech by a democratic congressman which includes this : "To my mind the income tax is the most equitable of all systems of taxation. It is the ideal way to support the Government. Let those who prosper little pay little, for they are least indebted to the Government; let those who prosper more pay more; let those who prosper most pay most; let those who prosper greatly pay greatly, for certainly they have been most blessed and are therefore most indebted to the Government." If income doesn't equal wages why would those who prosper little pay little? Surely if it wasn't on wages they would pay not at all? A lot of the debate centers around the complaint that the common man was required to pay tariffs (i.e. taxes) on goods, and corporations were profiting greatly from these tariffs and yet not not being taxed in proportion. So, through the 16th Amendment, they sought to shift the greater part of the tax burden to corporations and the very-wealthy. On the other hand -- if the common man was subjected to taxes on goods AND taxes on his earned income, he'd get the double whammy (as he does). But (again, arguably) that wasn't the intent of the amendment. In other words, tariffs on goods already taxed the earned income, now it was time to tax the unearned income. One speaker, arguing for the income tax, says: “An income tax seeks to reach the unearned wealth of the country and to make it pay its share.” (page 178 of the PDF).

DomKen -> RE: IRS agents hunting offshore tax cheats (4/30/2009 3:33:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: shannie quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen On page 167 of the PDF you will find a speech by a democratic congressman which includes this : "To my mind the income tax is the most equitable of all systems of taxation. It is the ideal way to support the Government. Let those who prosper little pay little, for they are least indebted to the Government; let those who prosper more pay more; let those who prosper most pay most; let those who prosper greatly pay greatly, for certainly they have been most blessed and are therefore most indebted to the Government." If income doesn't equal wages why would those who prosper little pay little? Surely if it wasn't on wages they would pay not at all? A lot of the debate centers around the complaint that the common man was required to pay tariffs (i.e. taxes) on goods, and corporations were profiting greatly from these tariffs and yet not not being taxed in proportion. So, through the 16th Amendment, they sought to shift the greater part of the tax burden to corporations and the very-wealthy. On the other hand -- if the common man was subjected to taxes on goods AND taxes on his earned income, he'd get the double whammy (as he does). But (again, arguably) that wasn't the intent of the amendment. In other words, tariffs on goods already taxed the earned income, now it was time to tax the unearned income. One speaker, arguing for the income tax, says: “An income tax seeks to reach the unearned wealth of the country and to make it pay its share.” (page 178 of the PDF). But the great thing about the speech I quoted is that that misconception is neatly laid to rest by the next speaker. If you read along to page 168 you will find an impassioned argument against a corporate income tax if the individual income tax is not also instituted. And the speaker does directly compare two grocers one incorporated and one not making the same amount. So that speaker also viewed the tax as one on earnings. And to top it off he ends his speech by saying that he hopes the states do consider "a constitutional amendment permiting a tax upon all kinds of income."

shannie -> RE: IRS agents hunting offshore tax cheats (4/30/2009 3:42:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen But the great thing about the speech I quoted is that that misconception is neatly laid to rest by the next speaker. If you read along to page 168 you will find an impassioned argument against a corporate income tax if the individual income tax is not also instituted. And the speaker does directly compare two grocers one incorporated and one not making the same amount. So that speaker also viewed the tax as one on earnings. And to top it off he ends his speech by saying that he hopes the states do consider "a constitutional amendment permiting a tax upon all kinds of income." Okay, let me get right on this .... (smiles... I'll do anything to avoid real work....)

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