DemonKia
Posts: 5521
Joined: 10/13/2007
From: Chico, Nor-Cali
Status: offline
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FR
Huh.
Well, it's funny. It's that perspective thing. If I look at Bob from here in 2009, he looks much different than when I consider him within the framework of his time. So, yeah, I see all the ladies' points about how non-dominant his women sound today. (Yet another odd thing about me becomes clear: I generally read with an eye to the historical context. In fact, I tend to 'research' around all that, which reading Bob was a big one to get me going on, yeah . . . . For instance, there have been huge perspectival shifts in the social / biological sciences that really change how his very then-au-courant ideas read today . . . . . ) Or, to pick another example, I've worked at reading Burroughs' Barsoom stories, & that takes some serious contextual perspectivizing cuz it sets off all kinds of 'imperialist', 'colonialist', & such like 'red flags' for me, but from the context of when it was written & where the science was at that time, it's actually fairly 'modern' . . . .. . . . (Huh, & another 'thing' of mine, I really dig the history of science . . . . . )
My mom, the ardent feminist, hated Heinlein. It was a bit of a bone of contention, back in the day when I was most flame-carrying about his Heinlein-ness. & I would always point out to her that for his time & 'canalization' he was quite evolved . . . . ..
So. If I watch, say, 'Pillow Talk' (lol) & then I read 'The Rolling Stones', those Heinlein women sound downright matriarchal against the cultural stereotypes. Especially Hazel Stone. But then Doris Day always looks suspiciously 'dom' to me, in the same way all those 'Asian submissive' stereotypes look very much like the matriarch stereotypes they can be, too, so . . . . *shrugs*
A question occurs to me: prior to _______________ (I'm thinking 1950 or so, but feel free to think about whatever timeline suits you), were there any truly 'dominant women', in the most modern of senses that we bring to the table? There were so many impediments in the way, legal obstacles to owning property, & so on & so forth . . .. . (& is that an exciting enough convo to start a new thread? Only you, dear participants, can decide . . .. . I don't want to derail interesting conversations, merely add to the diversity . .. . ..)
Ah. &. Purely my speculative opinion, but Bob generally 'feels' to me like an appropriately, given the times, closeted submissive man, rather in that archetypal sub guy way, very masc & authoritative & swashbuckling on the exterior & just likes to curl up under his woman's whatever at home . . . . . . But, truly, I'll acknowledge a big chunk of that is projective fantasizing on my part, lol. I have similar fantasies about Sir Richard Branson. &, not that it means much either way, but I kinda 'got' that sense about Heinlein long before I'd learned anything about his private life, the little that floats on the posthumous ether . . . . .
& part of that is that, to my ears, only a bare handful of his male characters really ring as 'twue doms' -- Lazarus, Jubal, some others . . . On the other hand, oodles of his male characters are submissive to my 'ears' -- Manny from my personal fave Heinlein, 'Moon Is A Harsh Mistress', particularly stands out in that regard; Libby, as has been pointed out; most of the male protagonists of his young adult stuff particularly 'Citizen of the Galaxy' . .... & lots sound switchy, too . .. . . He does hint at adult explorative sexuality quite a bit -- again, given the context of the times & his own 'canalization', as he liked to put it . . . . . . .
Oh. Anyways. Um.
Podkayne. Hadn't thought of her in a long time. Very much a princess in training, well on her way to growing up to be dominant human being. (& note that 'princess' for me carries quite a bit more affection & less epithet than the more conventional usage, I think.)
As a teen around 1980, there weren't many strong women or girls for me to identify with anywhere, I glommed onto as many as possible. & I also tended to like old skool hard-science 'guy' sci-fi . . . . . So, ya know, Bob was choice pickin's . .. . . .
Nice convo. Glad to see it's branching off into other authors, talking about books & such is always a good thing . . . . .. . The 'deans of sci-fi' are smilin' down on us, I'm sure . . . . .
The future is already here,
it's just not very evenly distributed.
- William Gibson -
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RE: Robert A. Heinlein - 
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