Introduction, and psychology/motivation question

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angeldmort -> Introduction, and psychology/motivation question (5/1/2009 4:02:25 PM)
This was to be my first post an introduction, but I got distracted by a mental health discussion… so, Hello! If this has been covered elsewhere, I apologize. If there is a place more appropriate to discuss the psychology behind this kind of lifestyle, please let me know. And if it's just too heavy, etc then let me know. I have no desire to step on toes. I've been reading but haven't come across my central problem - motivations. I'm often praised on my insight into others, but when looking at my own mind, I get caught up in the 'yes, maybe, but what if this?' and 'but what about that' until I end up more turned around than I started. The easiest person to lie to is yourself. So I'm seeking feedback. Background - leaving long marriage. He was verbally abusive, with anxiety and depressive disorders. I knew it, I let him tell me otherwise and let him convince me something was wrong with me for questioning. I ended up in a controlling caregiver role in a codependent relationship. (Sound familiar? Don't ever question the master... but then, I was also in charge.. not sub, not Dom. No power, yet all the obligations.) I've always had some very … dark… fantasies, even before I met my ex. For a long time, I worried that it meant there was something VERY wrong with me. After many years, I simply said 'the hell with it. This is apparently who I am.' I've always been drawn to the idea of some types of play. Now that I'm single, I have the option of investigating some of that interest. Here's my problem - having been in that relationship, I have to consider that 1) Maybe I'm drawn to Domination because of fear (not wanting to deal with the risk of a "normal" or "vanilla" relationship) laziness (not wanting to do the work of constantly balancing power in a "normal" or "vanilla" relationship) disillusionment (thinking it's probably the only way to get a man to take his turn doing the damn dishes!) or other "wrong" reasons. And yes, the accusation of "you just want me to be your bitch!" was made, but since then, I have absolutely confirmed that this was a manipulative tactic meant to keep me from asking that the basics of common courtesy were observed, and I am working to weed out any lingering fears over that. 2)Maybe I'm drawn to submission out of some need to be punished for failing someone I loved, etc. Maybe having been forced to be 'the strong one' who took care of everything, I just want to give up control in a prescribed, safe way. Maybe having been so constantly under assault mentally and emotionally for so many years, I'm just wanting some structured place where the pre-set rules make it safe to be weak. I can't say that I really like to be told what to do, or that I trust anyone enough anymore to let them choose anything for me, or that I retain any ability NOT to resist and react badly to any suggestion of controlling behavior. So, again, my reasons would be "wrong" and the resulting situations almost certainly be bad for everyone. Yes? No? This is just the few thoughts off the top of my head, but I'm trusting that you get an understanding of the dilemma, and I'm also trusting that if I've gone through this, someone else has as well. The one good thing I've found in my looking around is that if I have a thought or feeling that makes me feel something is wrong with me, someone else has had it, tried it, built a web page on it with pictures and a how to manual, so if nothing else, my weirdness makes me more normal in it's own weird way. I am glad to find that all the work I've put into recognizing red flags in normal behavior will still be valid here. I had had some real fears that coming into the BDSM community meant a whole new set of rules on behavior. So far, it seems that it's simply an exploration into a more varied understanding of the same standards - abuse is not abuse if the 'abused' wants it, so everything, just as in a vanilla relationship, comes down to consent. I was also very pleased to see so much deep thought and courtesy put into discussions of some very delicate subjects. And I'm glad you guys have a sense of humor. I'm looking forward to your responses.

kuriouswitch -> RE: Introduction, and psychology/motivation question (5/1/2009 5:38:33 PM)
warning: this is longer than I meant it to be, and it may not resonate with everyone but it's my own opinions and experiences. I just hope the Op gets something out of it, even if it's just a "she's nuts" type reaction which i get a lot of anyway. 1A) "Maybe I'm drawn to Domination because of fear (not wanting to deal with the risk of a "normal" or "vanilla" relationship), laziness (not wanting to do the work of constantly balancing power in a "normal" or "vanilla" relationship)" Being the Dominant person in a relationship in many ways takes more work that trying to balance a vanilla relationship. At all times you must be aware of the physical, mental and emotional needs of the one you are with. You must also be aware constantly of your needs and how to make sure your needs are being met without compromising their needs and in some cases filling both your and theirs at the same time. You can decide all of the sudden that you want to tie them up and take a whip to them but you also have to take into account, do they have any physical limitiations, do they have a fear of the whip or a trigger that might be hit which will cause trauma or maybe a whip or bondage are hard limits. If they hit subspace you have to take the time to bring them back, which can take a while then afterwards they might be emotionally or physically clingy. To be a Dominant in a relationship because you're afraid or don't want to deal with a vanilla relationship is a wrong reason to be a Dominant. I myself tried to be Dominant when I first started exploring because I was afraid of submitting to someone and all it did was cause me to harm someone I cared about and live a kind of lie because I was unhappy in that role and started to feel resentment towards the one I was with for making me stay in that role because that's all he knew me as. PS: Being a sub for this reason is wrong as well, if you're submitting because you don't want to work on balancing a vanilla relationship it's not going to work. Either way you'll end up building resentment and in teh end sabatoging the relationship and hurting someone because they're holding you to a "position" you put yourself in and now you find you're uncomfortable there. Communication is always key, no matter what your role. If I'm having a bad day Master lessens the boundries a bit, if he's having a bad day I might be more attentive to his needs. In many ways being in a D/s relationship takes more balance than a vanilla one 1B)" disillusionment (thinking it's probably the only way to get a man to take his turn doing the damn dishes!) or other "wrong" reasons." No matter what kind of relationship you have, there's going to be balance, there has to be if you want things to run smoothly. I can't cook so Master makes dinner, he plans all of the meals and shops for them. I do the dishes and the laundry and other small chores around the house. He takes care of the handyman work and is the occasional plumber or mechanic or builder. I take care of the pets and garden and make sure that the bills are paid. If you want to be Dominant in the relationship because of other "wrong" reasons maybe you shouldn't be. Yes it'd be nice sometimes to have someone at my beck and call that I could beat in order to relieve some tension but in the end all it does is make me feel worse for treating them like that, and makes me worry about what would happen if i lost control. You should be a dominant for the right reasons, because you want to help someone grow as a person, you want to see them gain confidence, learn new skills under your guidance, you want someone who serves you because they love you and want to. Obediance out of fear is a lackluster type of service, it's one that you can never trust because as soon as they can they will leave you never looking back or turn on you in an instant. 2)"Maybe I'm drawn to submission out of some need to be punished for failing someone I loved" this is wrong thinking. Submission is not about being punished, about being forced into a cage where you live off of scraps for teh rest of your life (sounds like occasional fun though lol) it's about finally being free to be who you are, to know that the one you are submitting to will never let you fall, will guide you to be the best you can be in whatever you choose to be. He's not going to tear you down because you fail, he will punish you if need be, and correct you but failing is not something that in and of itself that should be punished. This was an issue I dealt with until recently. I was constantly on edge about how well I served Master, I never thought I was good enough, was always beating myself down because I didn't serve his coffee just right, the handle wasn't exactly in the middle facing him for him to grab it easily, little things like that. Master didn't notice those things, he just saw how hard I strived to serve him. I was constantly on edge thinking that this time he's going to let me go because I didn't kneel long enough or my posture was wrong. Master, reading my journal one night came to me and said, "it wasn't your fault" and that's when a wall came down. Since then things have been more relaxed and I'm focused more on serving him well than serving him perfectly. People fail, it's human nature. It sucks sometimes because you strive so hard to be there, to not fail and then things get taken out of your hands, things go beyond your control and you have no choice but to let go (fail) or be sucked under. 2B) "Maybe having been forced to be 'the strong one' who took care of everything, I just want to give up control in a prescribed, safe way. Maybe having been so constantly under assault mentally and emotionally for so many years, I'm just wanting some structured place where the pre-set rules make it safe to be weak." Being submissive is not being weak. It's a safe place for you to be you, for your Dom/Master to be himself. I do best with a tight schedule, a routine that rarely waivers. I don't do change well and it causes me to get out of kilter if too many things change all at once, which in turns causes me to act out because I'm feeling lost. Between the ages of 7-21 I raised three kids, lived with parent (with two of those kids) who was diagnosed with a mental disorder and so I grew up quickly in some ways and I'm still a child in many others. Master makes sure that I have rules and structure and that they are followed (this last week they've been lax because of some issues but they'll be back in place this coming week) There are days when I am kajira, where every move I make I must ask permission first, I have to ask permission to ask him a question ect, teasing is limited but my focus is sharper. Then there are days when I'm allowed a bit more freedom, teasing, joking, being silly are allowed. I still have to ask permission to go do something such as the bathroom but it's less formal. It's in this situation that Master does most of his teaching, helping me understand somethings but I'm also allowed to be more vulnerable. I can be "weak" and need his protection and get it from him, and look up to him as a sort of hero but I also know that the minute he needs the adult/responsible me I'm there ready to serve as kajira again. 2C) "I can't say that I really like to be told what to do" Being told what to do, especially if you don't like what you're being told is hard. There are times when I'd rather not do something because it scares me. There have been times when I've begged Master to change his order because it's something that at that time I feel like I can't do it or handle it. Sometimes he amends his directive, sometimes he doesn't, if he doesn't I do it. Afterwards we always talk, about why I asked him to change it, what was so hard about it, what did I learn, how can we make it so that next time it won't be so hard and why did he tell me to do this, why did he change his order or why didn't he change it. did I learn what he was hoping I'd learn, what did I learn if anything. Being told what to do has two sides, the side that balks and goes, "I'm an adult, I don't need to be told what to wear" and the flip side is, " I like that Master takes enough interest in what I'm wearing to tell me what he wants me to wear today, it lets me know what he likes so I can duplicate it next time" or being told to take my vitamins, something I'm horrible about means that Master takes enough interest in my health to ensure that I keep myself healthy. 2D) "or that I trust anyone enough anymore to let them choose anything for me" This is why it's imperative that you talk to, communicate with anyone you think might be a potential. Trust takes time to build, sometimes you don't even realize how far you've come until you look back at your progress. You don't have to submit to anyone if you don't think they're a fit but make sure that you're not running from someone who might be the perfect fit because they hit something too close to home. There's been a couple of times where I swear Master can read my mind, or knows it better than I do. There's been times when He's had me do something that I completly balked at or said, " I don't want to do that, it scares me" because it hit too close to an open wound but I figured especially in the beginning that I was going to have to try to trust him, if it didn't work well then I'd pick myself back up and find someoen a bit more compatable. Master instituted something a few months ago that I still have trouble with, it's called "watering my flower" which is a nicer way of saying that when we do this he takes me to a safe place emotionally and makes it okay for me to cry. Me crying can be a release of frustration or guilt or upset about anything, something that happened that day or the week before or years before. I remember the first time he told me I was going to cry with him, I clamed up, became rigid and didn't move and wouldn't talk or look at him. I laid there in his arms not moving as he talked to me and made it okay. The first few times it never happened but as I got to trust him and realized that he wasn't going to yell or leave me because I started to cry it got easier. I still don't like doing it, I'd rather we didn't do it sometimes but it is easier for the most part. But he had the patience to sit there with me for 30 minutes or an hour and just wait, talking to me, making sure I knew I was safe and it was well worth the time but if he had gotten impatient and walked away or ordered me to cry I would have lost respect for him as well as a lot of trust. 2E) "or that I retain any ability NOT to resist and react badly to any suggestion of controlling behavior." Lol, I laugh because there have been times when I've thought, "oh hell no" to something Master has brought up. There are times when I'm especially tired or if I'm sick that Master will look at me and go, "the two year old is out" because I get clingy but fiercly independent too, I'll be contrary just to be so. I got the flu in November and threw a fit when Master told me I was to stay in bed and sleep. The last thing I wanted to do was sleep, I was determined to get up and go to work and that was when he threatened to tie me to the bed if I didn't undress that instant and get back in there. There are two types of controlling behaviour, one is the Dom's need to micromanage, they see that their way is the best way, that they will manage every step of the process. The other kind as I see it is more of a leading type. You tell me what you want and then leave it up to me to make it happen. If I need help I'll ask for it but I want the chance to figure it out myself first. I don't do well with micromanaging, I want the freedom to discover how to do it myself. I liked it when Master told me one day that I was going to shower for him, I'd never done that before so I had to figure out how to take a shower with the shower curtain open. It took me about ten minutes of examining the shower head, the shower curtain and where Master was, his angle before I figured out that if I keep the water pressure low, I can still shower and not get it all over the bathroom with the shower curtain open. Master was proud that I figured it out, that I was able to do it myself and I was proud of the fact that I did it and that he let me. He didn't jump in and say, "let me do it, you're taking too long" if I had asked him he would have told me but if he had taken over I'd have lost trust and respect in him because I'd have felt like he thought I was stupid or slow.

Jeptha -> RE: Introduction, and psychology/motivation question (5/1/2009 7:07:28 PM)
My only thought at the moment is this: it's good to question why you want what you want. But - as long as you can determine that it doesn't harm others (or yourself) - is it imperative that you answer all these questions now, or before embarking on some little voyage of exploration and discovery? The reason I put it that way is that I've asked some similar questions, and for some of them, I had to actually experiment and try it out before I could really know what my deal was. And, even then, I don't have everything all doped out; but after a little while I have a fairly good grasp on what kinds of things work for me and which don't work so well... Reflection is good, but sometimes the proof is in the pudding, you know.

NihilusZero -> RE: Introduction, and psychology/motivation question (5/1/2009 10:19:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: angeldmort I am glad to find that all the work I've put into recognizing red flags in normal behavior will still be valid here. I had had some real fears that coming into the BDSM community meant a whole new set of rules on behavior. So far, it seems that it's simply an exploration into a more varied understanding of the same standards - abuse is not abuse if the 'abused' wants it, so everything, just as in a vanilla relationship, comes down to consent. I was also very pleased to see so much deep thought and courtesy put into discussions of some very delicate subjects. And I'm glad you guys have a sense of humor. I'm looking forward to your responses. Of course it's just a valuable here. That level of introspection and analysis directs you straight towards ascertaining what it is you want and seek. You've already begun well critically dissecting your own motivations to determine how positive or "healthy" they are. I parenthesize the word "healthy" because trying to measure your desires by such an arbitrary ruler ends up, I think, leading one astray more than toward their goal. Too many people perhaps try to read into the source of a catalyst in their lives as a means to determine if it's worthwhile and genuine, rather than where that catalyst will lead them. That you discover certain desires through a poor former relationship or emotional trauma only speaks of the means by which that veil was lifted. What is underneath is either 'good for you' or 'bad for you' in a manner entirely irrelevant to how you arrived at its exposure. So, you have an initial step of hypothetically walking through different dynamics in your head (based off of previous experiences) to gauge what you think is a good fit for you. From there you can step to more interactive ways to (at least vicariously) get a feel for the dynamic in action. Get to know some people or couple who have been in or are in dynamics similar to what you think you'd like to test and pick their brains. You can try a D/s dynamic equivalent of casual dating. All this, though, falls on figuring out where you want to start and on what side of the kneel.

notsubstandard -> RE: Introduction, and psychology/motivation question (5/2/2009 12:19:28 AM)
Angeldmort, you are making this way to complex. Stop looking within yourself to find a "why". There is nothing wrong with your fantasy urges and motives. How you respond to them is what matters. In ANY psychological diagnostic, the variables (questions) are: 1. Does it impact your life in a negative way? Basically are you at risk of mortal danger, addiction, obsession., child endangerment, etc. 2. Does it impact your ability to meet your basic needs, but cant stop? You lost your job, cant attend school, lost your home/appartment, health is in jeapardy. 3. Does the activity isolate you socially? Your family has distanced themselves, your friends dont call, etc. 4. Does it indirectly negatively affect the people you love? Your children have issues at school or with you, marriage is toast, etc. 5. Is it illegal? If you are not in any of the above catagories, you are dealing with your own guilt from struggling with the social/moral values you were instilled with, and the perceptions of society those values generated. All you simply need to do is recognize you are not bad, defective, dysfunctional, psychotic, or any other "label" you can think up. Explore with caution and be selective. Be open to conversation and see where things can go. When your anxiety warns you, listen to it. If you begin to develop symptoms of OCD, get help lol, because your anxiety (guilt driven) is ruling your life. I bet a paycheck Dorothy got laid on the way to Oz.

DarkSteven -> RE: Introduction, and psychology/motivation question (5/2/2009 6:01:34 AM)
Angel, I agree that you;re making it too complex. You have a need to have a strong man take control in a way that makes you feel safe, and loved. You had someone who was weak and did not make you feel safe. You sound to me like you'll make a great submissive, but as you've found, you need a good partner to make it work. That said, your profile states that you're Dominant. Is that a mistake?

chamberqueen -> RE: Introduction, and psychology/motivation question (5/2/2009 9:03:12 AM)
Simple answer: What's the fun in being "normal"? More in depth answer: I came from a long history of abuse. My marriage was basically a Master/slave relationship without the perks of open communication and the slavery came through fear of inciting his anger. Within the lifestyle I have been both a dominant (because I needed to show myself that I could be in charge and the other person would see how much I cared about their fulfillment instead of feeling browbeaten) and a slave (because it is natural for me to want to please). Along the way I have learned many things about myself and gone through a lot of emotional healing. I was drawn to the lifestyle because of the trust and open communication. The kinks and play were bonuses if you will, but not the essential core that I so dearly needed. I have learned things about myself that I could never have sat down and intellectualized on my own. I was hit with emotions that had been repressed for decades. Until you actually give it a try you won't know exactly what it is that you are looking for or completely understand the reasons behind you feeling it is right for you. If you find the right partner you will feel yourself flourish and open up in ways that you never expected. While it is good to look inside yourself to try to understand it will only be a limited insight until you can actually experience it.

Jeptha -> RE: Introduction, and psychology/motivation question (5/2/2009 7:41:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NihilusZero ...All this, though, falls on figuring out where you want to start and on what side of the kneel. I agree there. If I were to recommend anything, it would be to get clear about what you want and try and get a handle on it in such a way that you can explain it to others/potential partners. (Not as easy as it might sound, as you can see by all the threads go around now about confusion in terminology and so forth.) You may have a much greater ability to write your own ticket here than women sometimes realize. People come up with all kinds of mix-n-match solutions where they're dominant in most situations, but submissive in some particular circumstances, etc.

hamster11 -> RE: Introduction, and psychology/motivation question (5/3/2009 8:54:57 AM)
you can think yourself to death. sometimes you have to stop thinking and do. its the only way to know for sure if this is for you. maybe as you go you will figure out "why". plus think as much as you want guard as much as you want but you will still get hurt here and there. nothing is perfect and you cant get around that by thinking about it.

oceanwinds -> RE: Introduction, and psychology/motivation question (5/3/2009 9:17:03 AM)
Hello angeldmort I have some comments regarding your post. One thing for me is that I did not enter D.s. because of a failed marriage etc. The man I met has lived the majority of his life in BDSM. I had a successful marriage of 29 years. It was vanilla, and reason for its' ending was his death. Now, I have never been told that I am normal and flexibility is something I do have. At 55 and never hearing about Ds or BDSM, I felt it was something that I would want to explore. Sir began to train me and as a submissive I began to grow in many new ways. It also honored my Goddess/God in doing so, and today I am still growing. Both relationships, vanilla and Ds, have equally presented problems and workable solutions. Both relationships take/took a lot of work. Both men in these relationships were worth it and taught me a lot. If we both weren't benifical to each other, I would been out the door. Looking back it is clear to see that hubby was very dominant in his life. He ruled himself and others around him, without degrading them. He had a special talent and no b.s. Sir is similiar to that as well. Honoring who we are is a necessity. Normal just a word thrown out to make us over analyses ourselves. No one is normal period. When seeking and being in a relationship one needs to be very honest with themselves. They need to check those red flags that will flash but usually we tell ourselves we can change that. If we change it, it has to be a change within our attitude, not theirs. This lifestyle, call it as you may, is not an easy way out and takes a lot of work. Sometimes we make unhealthy choices in relationships. I did prior to my late hubby. We learn from those and move on. When hubby died my biggest fear was going back to old patterns prior to him. Fear kept me aware, but I never did go back. oceanwinds

Whiplashsmile4 -> RE: Introduction, and psychology/motivation question (5/3/2009 5:23:20 PM)
It is what it is. You are what you are.

RedMagic1 -> RE: Introduction, and psychology/motivation question (5/3/2009 5:33:07 PM)
Heh. Anonymous cowboy poem: I eat when I'm hungry. I drink when I'm dry. If the sky don't fall on me I'll live till I die.

SimplyMichael -> RE: Introduction, and psychology/motivation question (5/3/2009 5:48:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: angeldmort I'm often praised on my insight into others, but when looking at my own mind, I get caught up in the 'yes, maybe, but what if this?' and 'but what about that' until I end up more turned around than I started. The easiest person to lie to is yourself. So I'm seeking feedback. I have long said that it isn't the actions but the motivations that make things "good" or "bad". I slap a woman's face and what makes it good or bad is not my action but my motivation, did I do it to make her live in fear of me or because it excites her? Same goes for you, find and look for your internal motivations and ensure that your desire to be dominated comes from a place of personal responsibility not of "rescue me" and your desire to submit comes from a place of personal contentment not co-dependance. Not that I am a pillar of perfection but I had to work through all kinds of personal crap to get where I am now and there is plenty of work left to be done. However, it has been by doing BDSM and the self reflection doing it well requires that I have been able to and even at times forced to face harsh truths about myself and work through them. Sounds like you are well on your way of doing the same.

lally2 -> RE: Introduction, and psychology/motivation question (5/3/2009 6:01:12 PM)
all i can add to the brilliant advice above is this: what are youre fantasies, what makes you hot, what makes that feeling of need chew on youre gut. if you can answer that then maybe you have youre answer or atleast the beginings of one or at the very least a starting point. good luck and i hope you stick around and i love youre pic!

obis -> RE: Introduction, and psychology/motivation question (5/3/2009 7:04:11 PM)
I agree with Jeptha in that I was not able to answer a lot of my questions until I actually got experience with some partners under my belt. For example, I struggled quite a while to reconcile my dominant desires with feminism, but once I was actively involved with strong, independent women as submissives and saw how it benefited their lives and the happiness it brought them, it all "clicked" in my mind. You can spend years trying to figure something out theoretically that you can determine empirically in a night of bondage and humiliation :)

Jeptha -> RE: Introduction, and psychology/motivation question (5/5/2009 10:31:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lally2 all i can add to the brilliant advice above is this: what are youre fantasies, what makes you hot, what makes that feeling of need chew on youre gut. if you can answer that then maybe you have youre answer or atleast the beginings of one or at the very least a starting point... You know, this is a very excellent point. I think most of what the OP wrote seemed to be reactions to prior experiences. While that might be an occasion for some practical problem solving about what kind of relationship structure suits you, and some introspection about why you choose the partners you choose, it doesn't answer the question of desire. Experience helps shape our desire, but it (usually) isn't synonymous with desire. So - what is it that you desire, first of all? I think of the example where the OP said she'd like to be dominant so men would do the dishes once in a while. Yes - that's a desire, of sorts. But there are other practical ways to achieve the goal of that desire. For instance, I live alone because I don't want to have to tailor my habits and environment to suit another person. Therefor, I'd call it a practical matter, rather than the sort of 1st order desire that we're talking about.

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