RE: The death penalty (Full Version)

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kittinSol -> RE: The death penalty (11/11/2009 6:11:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I want due process...a fair impartial trial with witnesses testifying and all other evidence considered. When the just verdict is delivered I want the punishment administered in as an expedient manner as possible.



Due process demands that a person condemned to death has the right to appeal the most draconian sentence there is. Are you suggesting that we should do away with due process and erase the right to appeal such a sentence? And how do you propose to amend the law as it stands?



kdsub -> RE: The death penalty (11/11/2009 6:20:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I want due process...a fair impartial trial with witnesses testifying and all other evidence considered. When the just verdict is delivered I want the punishment administered in as an expedient manner as possible.



Due process demands that a person condemned to death has the right to appeal the most draconian sentence there is. Are you suggesting that we should do away with due process and erase the right to appeal such a sentence? And how do you propose to amend the law as it stands?


You are confusing civil law with the Military Code of Justice...look it up... there is no automatic appeal… different rules.

Butch



kittinSol -> RE: The death penalty (11/11/2009 6:32:10 PM)

Do your own homework :-) . http://www.crf-usa.org/bill-of-rights-in-action/bria-15-2-b.html

And for everyone out there who feels strongly one way or another about capital punishment, I highly recommend this website:  deathpenaltyinfo.org .



Marc2b -> RE: The death penalty (11/11/2009 6:32:52 PM)

quote:

Perhaps respect was the wrong word... I should have said strongly disagree with.


No problem.

quote:

I do understand your points...I comes down to can we come up with a set of standards that could be trusted to condemn the worst of the worst. You think not... but I think we can. In the past I have listed the standards I thought were cut and dry so I will not here...but they would exclude 90 percent of convicted murders. The remaining 10 percent...like the Hood murderer would be dead.


And I understand your points as well, I guess we just have to agree that we disagree on this. [:)]




kdsub -> RE: The death penalty (11/11/2009 6:36:07 PM)

How about a system that severely reduces the number of men on death row because of its stringent rules and regulations... Those few that meet the criteria for capital punishment would be beyond doubt and the appeal process could be reduced to one. The average time before execution could be reduced to one year or so.

This would greatly reduce the costs.

Don't you think that at this time we have too many convicted murderers on death row? And the laws that govern this sentence are too liberal and as Phil states subjective? I do and there are only two ways to go… One is to do away with capital punishment…do you think that will happen any time soon? The other is to stop the killing of innocents by tightening the rules of capital punishment.

You all can dream and wish all you want but it will be easier I believe to make strong rules and regulations for CP then to do away with it completely.

So which is better…beat your head against a wall and cry about innocent deaths or perhaps demand through political means stronger laws that will appease those pro cp advocates and reduce or eliminate the deaths of innocents?

Butch



kdsub -> RE: The death penalty (11/11/2009 6:40:06 PM)

I'm sorry kittinSol I did not see anything about the military code of justice...maybe I missed it.

As with Marc2b we will have to disagree... the links you provided do nothing to change my feelings...along with a good portion of the United Sates.

Butch



kdsub -> RE: The death penalty (11/11/2009 6:41:21 PM)

Thanks I get carried away at times... I just wish there were some sort of compromise or solution.

Butch



kittinSol -> RE: The death penalty (11/11/2009 6:44:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Those few that meet the criteria for capital punishment would be beyond doubt and the appeal process could be reduced to one.



Which criteria are you proposing again, and how does it fit in with the Bill of Rights?

quote:



The average time before execution could be reduced to one year or so.



Why wait a year? You should do it quick style, and just take them out of the Court House and shoot in them in the head, once and for all. You can charge their family for the bullet, too.

This would greatly reduce the costs.




rikigrl -> RE: The death penalty (11/11/2009 6:48:57 PM)

Anyone who favours the death penalty may as well be in a Monty Python sketch shouting "burn the witch, burn the witch". That is how idiotic the death penalty is in this one's opinion, it hasn't the slightest effect on capital crimes, nor recidivism, it only ameliorates the feeling for vengance.



kdsub -> RE: The death penalty (11/11/2009 6:53:34 PM)

Here you go...

No person shall be held to answer for any capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.


What do due process in the Bill of Rights have to do with the appeal process? Here it is read it. Hmmmmm what does that part about except in cases arising in the land or naval forces?

Yep after due process...give me the gun...let that jackass at Fort hood bend over and I'll be glad to shove it up his butt and pull the trigger...I'll even buy the bullet.

See I can sound just as fanatical as you…and make just as much sense when I do it.

Butch



kittinSol -> RE: The death penalty (11/11/2009 7:07:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Yep after due process...give me the gun...let that jackass at Fort hood bend over and I'll be glad to shove it up his butt and pull the trigger...I'll even buy the bullet.



Yes, I've always thought that many death-penalty proponents would like to do the shooting/shooting-up/frying thing themselves. Deep-routed impulses aren't necessarily morally right though. You ought to look deep within yourself and wonder what motivates you to torture others for the sake of revenge, because that is not what Justice (with a capital 'j') should be based on in a humane society.

quote:


See I can sound just as fanatical as you…and make just as much sense when I do it.



Correction: it is not I that speaks of torturing others, but you.  Whilst I argue with passion and deep personal belief that the death penalty is wrong, I also argue from a place of reason and logic (see my posting history on the subject).

The fanaticism is all yours.




servantforuse -> RE: The death penalty (11/11/2009 7:09:22 PM)

John Muhammed was convicted and sentenced 7 years ago. That was long enough.



kittinSol -> RE: The death penalty (11/11/2009 7:23:29 PM)

Did you come when he died [8|] ?



servantforuse -> RE: The death penalty (11/11/2009 7:26:14 PM)

No, I was watching Sean Hannity at the time. I was happy to hear about it though.



kittinSol -> RE: The death penalty (11/11/2009 7:31:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

No, I was watching Sean Hannity at the time. I was happy to hear about it though.


Happiness from murder. I rest my case, but I really hope you make a spiritual U-turn - for your own sake, you know? Good luck. 



kdsub -> RE: The death penalty (11/11/2009 7:33:52 PM)

I do hate to disagree with you kittinSol because we more often than not come down on the same side of an argument.

This is one where you completely misunderstand me...I don't know how you could read all my posts and think I am a blood thirsty killer. I believe I am more reasonable than you and my propositions would do more to save lives then your pipe dreams.

It makes no difference what others in the world think...only the electorate of the United Sates count. I can guarantee you in this political climate there will not be a repeal of the Capital Punishment laws.

In the face of this reality making the existing laws uniform and more stringent will save more lives then using satire to call the current majority of Americans bloodthirsty torturers in search of revenge.

I say I am arguing rationally to save lives with the most chance of success where you are just spouting rhetoric that will do nothing.

If the death penalty is abolished in the future I will abide by the majority but in the meantime lets save lives.

Butch



servantforuse -> RE: The death penalty (11/11/2009 7:34:40 PM)

I see it as justice...Murder is what he and his accomplice did, I believe 13 times.



WyldHrt -> RE: The death penalty (11/11/2009 7:34:52 PM)


quote:

Whilst I argue with passion and deep personal belief that the death penalty is wrong, I also argue from a place of reason and logic (see my posting history on the subject).


quote:

Did you come when he died ?


[8|]



kittinSol -> RE: The death penalty (11/11/2009 7:42:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt


quote:

Whilst I argue with passion and deep personal belief that the death penalty is wrong, I also argue from a place of reason and logic (see my posting history on the subject).


quote:

Did you come when he died ?


[8|]


Do you have a more intelligent commentary than rolling your eyes? Or do you agree with me that there is some psychological motive for liking the death penalty, one of a sexual nature? If you have read Freud, you will know that he argued that we are all motivated by sexual impulses, and that the strongest one we have is death.  

If you're still rolling your eyes, please ignore me :-).



WyldHrt -> RE: The death penalty (11/11/2009 10:39:17 PM)


quote:

Do you have a more intelligent commentary than rolling your eyes?

Sorry, I thought my point was rather obvious. I've read your posts on this subject and seen you go just as over-the-top as those on the other side of the issue. I have no problem with this, as most of us (myself included) post some pretty extreme things when arguing about something we feel strongly about. That said, trying to paint those with a differing view as fanatics, when your behaviour is often no better, is counterproductive, IMO.
quote:

Or do you agree with me that there is some psychological motive for liking the death penalty, one of a sexual nature? If you have read Freud, you will know that he argued that we are all motivated by sexual impulses, and that the strongest one we have is death. 
 
No, I don't agree. While all of one's attitudes, opinions, and behaviours are psychologically motivated (by definition), that doesn't mean they are sexual. As to Freud, I've read quite enough. Amusingly, Freud also argued that women have little sense of justice (amongst other moral/mental/ emotional weaknesses), due to penis envy.



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