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RE: The death penalty - 11/12/2009 2:44:55 AM   
eyesopened


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

I am all in favor of expanding capital offenses so that we will execute the convicted rapist of any child under the age of 13.

I would much prefer that we do away with segregation wings and protective custody wings in our prisons for anyone who is not simply awaiting trial. Let Prison Justice have at it!


And what happens if we later discover the accused was innocent after all?

I will not be shedding any tears for John Muhammad (or whatever he calls himself) but I remain firmly opposed to the death penalty. Not for the sake of some low life, murdering scumbag - there are evil people out there who make me want bury a hatchet into their skull. Such strong emotions, however, is why we must restrain ourselves and act rationally lest we compound a crime by harming another innocent. The death penalty cannot be reversed if we later discover a false conviction has taken place. It is bad enough to discover we have been jailing an innocent for twenty years (as in the Capozzi case) but at least we can let them go and given them back what's left of their life. You can't give back anything to the dead.


Yanno, innocent people die all the time.  People who have done everything right just keel over from a brain anyorism or heart defect they didn't know they had until autopsy.  If someone is found to have a heart defect at autopsy, is that the family doctor's fault?  The number of guilty behind bars so outweighs the number of the innocent that it bothers my conscience not at all.

Innocent people get killed in wars.  We should sit back and allow attacks and invasions because we might just get a civilian killed?

I don't care if I sound like a blood-thirsty monster.  We give far too many rights to the convicted and none to the victim.  I don't care if Ol' Sparky occassionaly malfunctions and the murderer has a hard death.  What kind of humane death did that person allow his victim?  When crime scene photos are so horrendous that they are ruled inadmissable at the trial for fear of prejudicing the jury...am I supposed to worry if the guy sizzles a bit before he fries?

I stand by my conviction that the death penalty is used far too seldom with far too much concern for the murderer and not enough concern for the victim. 

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RE: The death penalty - 11/12/2009 5:39:29 AM   
servantforuse


Posts: 6363
Joined: 3/8/2006
Status: offline 		Wisconsin had it's own concern for the rapists and murderers held in the State prisons here. They were given the H1N1 vaccine while those who really needed it, pregnant women and children couldn't get it. Those who did, stood in a cold rain in a long line to do so. I have NO compassion for anyone in prison. O.

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Profile   Post #: 282
RE: The death penalty - 11/12/2009 6:28:55 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

I am all in favor of expanding capital offenses so that we will execute the convicted rapist of any child under the age of 13.

I would much prefer that we do away with segregation wings and protective custody wings in our prisons for anyone who is not simply awaiting trial. Let Prison Justice have at it!


And what happens if we later discover the accused was innocent after all?

I will not be shedding any tears for John Muhammad (or whatever he calls himself) but I remain firmly opposed to the death penalty. Not for the sake of some low life, murdering scumbag - there are evil people out there who make me want bury a hatchet into their skull. Such strong emotions, however, is why we must restrain ourselves and act rationally lest we compound a crime by harming another innocent. The death penalty cannot be reversed if we later discover a false conviction has taken place. It is bad enough to discover we have been jailing an innocent for twenty years (as in the Capozzi case) but at least we can let them go and given them back what's left of their life. You can't give back anything to the dead.


Yanno, innocent people die all the time.  People who have done everything right just keel over from a brain anyorism or heart defect they didn't know they had until autopsy.  If someone is found to have a heart defect at autopsy, is that the family doctor's fault?  The number of guilty behind bars so outweighs the number of the innocent that it bothers my conscience not at all.

Innocent people get killed in wars.  We should sit back and allow attacks and invasions because we might just get a civilian killed?

I don't care if I sound like a blood-thirsty monster.  We give far too many rights to the convicted and none to the victim.  I don't care if Ol' Sparky occassionaly malfunctions and the murderer has a hard death.  What kind of humane death did that person allow his victim?  When crime scene photos are so horrendous that they are ruled inadmissable at the trial for fear of prejudicing the jury...am I supposed to worry if the guy sizzles a bit before he fries?

I stand by my conviction that the death penalty is used far too seldom with far too much concern for the murderer and not enough concern for the victim. 

The irony of this post.

Yesterday the murderer of Jeanine Nicarico was finally sentenced to death for his crime, 26 years after the conviction. 2 completely innocent men spent over a decade on death row for this crime while the actual murderer killed two more people. And what was the compelling evidence that got those 2 locked up and kept the police from continuing the investigation and finding the actual killer? A deputy claimed that one of the young men told him about a dream which included details of the crime.

So I wonder if the relatives and loved ones of the 2 women Brian Dugan murdered after Nicarico feel it was such a good thing that occasionally innocents get convicted? I think they likely feel that if the cops and prosecutors had done the hard work rather than finding a couple of 'usual suspects' that the person they loved might not still be alive.

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Profile   Post #: 283
RE: The death penalty - 11/12/2009 6:30:21 AM   
SpinnerofTales


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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

Wisconsin had it's own concern for the rapists and murderers held in the State prisons here. They were given the H1N1 vaccine while those who really needed it, pregnant women and children couldn't get it. Those who did, stood in a cold rain in a long line to do so. I have NO compassion for anyone in prison. O.


It is easy to see such a thing and say how awful it is to have prisoners given a flu vaccine while the unincarcerated need to wait. To do so completely ignores the reality of how quickly a flu virus could spread through a closed system like a prision, the complete inability of any prision medical system to deal with such an epidemic and the costs of even trying to do so.
When incarcerating someone, the state not only takes responsibility for their captivity, but for their health and welfare as well. The fact that there are people who have comitted no crime going to bed hungry at night, for example, does not mean that the prision system would be justified in starving their prison population.

(in reply to servantforuse)
Profile   Post #: 284
RE: The death penalty - 11/12/2009 6:59:50 AM   
servantforuse


Posts: 6363
Joined: 3/8/2006
Status: offline 		The people who were most at risk to get the H1N1 flu should have gotten the vaccine first. That group does not include middle age gang bangers in prison. It should have gone to the little kids and pregnant mothers first. For many of them, the supply wasn't there.

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Profile   Post #: 285
RE: The death penalty - 11/12/2009 7:03:31 AM   
Marc2b


Posts: 6660
Joined: 8/7/2006
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quote:

Yanno, innocent people die all the time. People who have done everything right just keel over from a brain anyorism or heart defect they didn't know they had until autopsy. If someone is found to have a heart defect at autopsy, is that the family doctor's fault? The number of guilty behind bars so outweighs the number of the innocent that it bothers my conscience not at all.


The fact that people die from medical conditions is completely irrelevant. Here we are talking about the State actively killing somebody.

quote:

Innocent people get killed in wars. We should sit back and allow attacks and invasions because we might just get a civilian killed?


Also not relevant. War is a separate issue from criminal justice, with its’ own set of rules, values, etc.

quote:

I don't care if I sound like a blood-thirsty monster. We give far too many rights to the convicted and none to the victim. I don't care if Ol' Sparky occassionaly malfunctions and the murderer has a hard death. What kind of humane death did that person allow his victim? When crime scene photos are so horrendous that they are ruled inadmissable at the trial for fear of prejudicing the jury...am I supposed to worry if the guy sizzles a bit before he fries?


As I’ve said before, I don’t shed any tears when they put some of these cretins down. My concern remains for the innocent being executed for something they didn’t do. That’s just too high a price to pay. It is easy to be dismissive of it – until it’s you or a loved one being strapped to that gurney.

Actually, what most concerned me about your previous post was not the support of the death penalty for murderers – which I can understand if not support – but your call for the death penalty for child rapists. Outrage over child rapists is understandable (I was a victim myself when I was six – so believe me, I can get VERY emotional about the issue) but by expanding the crimes covered by the death penalty, you are expanding the number of falsely accused facing the death penalty. I can’t abide the thought of some poor guy getting executed because his vindictive ex-wife filled their daughter’s head with lies to tell.

quote:

I stand by my conviction that the death penalty is used far too seldom with far too much concern for the murderer and not enough concern for the victim.


Okay. I stand by my convictions.


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RE: The death penalty - 11/12/2009 7:18:16 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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Joined: 4/8/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

I'm not trying to get snarky but want an actual answer, in the past, before it was known that an innocent man had definitely executed, death penalty supporters always argued that the system was flawed but self correcting and that the safeguards in place prevented executing innocents which strongly implied that their support for capital punishment hinged on the system not executing the innocent. Now that it is undeniable that an innocent man has been put to death why do those same people continue to support the death penalty?


Because there are crimes that deserve it. (And I never believed or used the argument that no one had been unjustly executed. It has nothing to do with the basic ethical issues.)

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 287
RE: The death penalty - 11/12/2009 7:23:43 AM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

Lets be practical... it is very expensive to house... feed... provide livers and such...and protect others from murders...for life. Some kill again within the walls of prison...some are paroled and kill again. Yet all we do is complain about taxes.


http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs-death-penalty


the cost argument is nonsense. They are not the costs of the death penalty they are the costs of endless cycles of appeals. The cost of the death penalty is $1.49 plus tax.

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 288
RE: The death penalty - 11/12/2009 7:26:32 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rikigrl

Anyone who favours the death penalty may as well be in a Monty Python sketch shouting "burn the witch, burn the witch". That is how idiotic the death penalty is in this one's opinion, it hasn't the slightest effect on capital crimes, nor recidivism, it only ameliorates the feeling for vengance.


Well youre obviously wrong abourt recidivism. Not one person who has been executed has repeated his crime. There is considerable disagreement about the deterrent effect.

(in reply to rikigrl)
Profile   Post #: 289
RE: The death penalty - 11/12/2009 7:28:39 AM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt


quote:

Whilst I argue with passion and deep personal belief that the death penalty is wrong, I also argue from a place of reason and logic (see my posting history on the subject).


quote:

Did you come when he died ?





Do you have a more intelligent commentary than rolling your eyes? Or do you agree with me that there is some psychological motive for liking the death penalty, one of a sexual nature? If you have read Freud, you will know that he argued that we are all motivated by sexual impulses, and that the strongest one we have is death.  

If you're still rolling your eyes, please ignore me :-).


now that is something we can get behind.

Freud. LMAO

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 290
RE: The death penalty - 11/12/2009 10:07:42 AM   
breatheasone


Posts: 4004
Joined: 7/14/2007
Status: offline 		i did not read all 15 pages, i will just chime in and say i am in favor of having the death penalty in our (the US) justice system. 

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Profile   Post #: 291
RE: The death penalty - 11/12/2009 12:03:37 PM   
subrob1967


Posts: 4591
Joined: 9/13/2004
Status: offline 		If you want to abolish the DP you need to have the 5th amendment rewritten. The state can do whatever it wants with due process.

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Profile   Post #: 292
RE: The death penalty - 11/12/2009 12:41:52 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

now that is something we can get behind.



Behind.

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Profile   Post #: 293
RE: The death penalty - 11/12/2009 2:43:00 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

now that is something we can get behind.



Behind.


Just what I'm looking for...mine seems to be missing

Butch

_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 294
RE: The death penalty - 11/12/2009 3:34:53 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: rikigrl

Anyone who favours the death penalty may as well be in a Monty Python sketch shouting "burn the witch, burn the witch". That is how idiotic the death penalty is in this one's opinion, it hasn't the slightest effect on capital crimes, nor recidivism, it only ameliorates the feeling for vengance.


Well youre obviously wrong abourt recidivism. Not one person who has been executed has repeated his crime. There is considerable disagreement about the deterrent effect.

Actually there is considerable evidence for recidivism by the actual perpertrators of crimes after someone has been convicted of crimes they commited. Brian Dugan comes immediately to mind.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 295
RE: The death penalty - 11/12/2009 4:24:35 PM   
rikigrl


Posts: 203
Joined: 5/14/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: rikigrl

Anyone who favours the death penalty may as well be in a Monty Python sketch shouting "burn the witch, burn the witch". That is how idiotic the death penalty is in this one's opinion, it hasn't the slightest effect on capital crimes, nor recidivism, it only ameliorates the feeling for vengance.


Well youre obviously wrong abourt recidivism. Not one person who has been executed has repeated his crime. There is considerable disagreement about the deterrent effect.

Recidivism in reference to other criminals....duhhhhh...let me help...i'll bet that executing the D.C. sniper hasn't prevented one other murderer from killing, is that easier? If it has caused one other person to say "hmmm, maybe I'd better not" please post a link.  Humans are animals, and not very evolved judging from the bloodlust exhibited in this thread, perhaps Sharia law should be implemented in the U.S., public hangings with mandatory attendance, off with the hands of thieves, and flogging for indecent dress.

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Profile   Post #: 296
RE: The death penalty - 11/12/2009 4:27:59 PM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rikigrl

perhaps Sharia law should be implemented in the U.S., public hangings with mandatory attendance, off with the hands of thieves, and flogging for indecent dress.


I am okay with the public hangings! 

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Profile   Post #: 297
RE: The death penalty - 11/12/2009 4:42:58 PM   
rikigrl


Posts: 203
Joined: 5/14/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

quote:

ORIGINAL: rikigrl

perhaps Sharia law should be implemented in the U.S., public hangings with mandatory attendance, off with the hands of thieves, and flogging for indecent dress.


I am okay with the public hangings! 

You could invite some Taliban and Al Qaeda over to share in the wonderful experience since they love a good hanging as well, perhaps it would be a first step in truly understanding one another.  

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Profile   Post #: 298
RE: The death penalty - 11/12/2009 4:50:23 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Check out THIS link...scroll down to where it says" Among inmates under sentence of death and with available criminal histories at yearend 2007"

Now imagine if approx 3220 on death row had been executed it would have saved approx 268 lives.

Can you now see where capital punishment can save lives?

Butch


< Message edited by kdsub -- 11/12/2009 4:52:06 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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Profile   Post #: 299
RE: The death penalty - 11/12/2009 5:12:16 PM   
Marc2b


Posts: 6660
Joined: 8/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

If you want to abolish the DP you need to have the 5th amendment rewritten. The state can do whatever it wants with due process.


You won't get an argument from me that the death penalty isn't Constitutional but while the Fifth (and Fourteenth) Amendment clearly allow the death penalty they do not mandate it.

The death penalty can be abolished (and brought back) with legislation.

< Message edited by Marc2b -- 11/12/2009 5:29:48 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 300
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