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RE: Would you buy an american car? - 5/7/2009 1:13:50 PM

thishereboi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Right, that's the other thing. This is New Hampshire. The snow is unbelievable - we're talking six months of winter a year, so the car's got to handle okay in these kinds of conditions. It looks like we're condemned to getting an effing minivan, and I heard that there was a VW that could fit the bill. Literally: I think it's pricey. It's not an American car though, but to be frank, the nationality of the vehicle is as relevant to me as Ann Coulter's choice of sanitary protection .

Well considering my family, I have to suggest this one..

http://www.nissanusa.com/armada/?dcp=ppn.16575036.&dcc=0.95059320#/key-features/overview/

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Post #: 81

RE: Would you buy an american car? - 5/7/2009 1:47:39 PM

samboct

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Hi Kittin

Just took a look at the Flex. Depends on how serious you are about shlepping through the NH snow. Basically it's a Taurus with a bigger body grafted on. A Taurus doesn't do badly in the snow- a ski buddy of mine still drives a front wheel drive Taurus (maybe the Merc version) through most anything that a winter in Stowe will throw at you- but it ain't a 'Burban. What I'd worry about is the tranny- if they haven't upgraded it or improved the cooling systems, it's likely to have issues because the Flex is going to be more of a load than a Taurus- (look at the mileage for a giveaway.) And please don't assume that the car manufacturers are smart enough to do that-often they get jammed up and use whatever parts are handy- which is why the next years version often comes with some improved hardware.

In terms of 'Burbans being driven only by Republican Palin foot fetishists- relax- it's a great mommy mobile and I have a lot of friends who drive them- liberals to boot. (well, as liberal as me.) Your assumption would be more valid on a Hummer. Might also have to do with the trim package on them too- the higher end ones tend to be used for show, the lower trim packages are often working vehicles and abound amongst college sailing/ski teams.

Drive them both- a test drive can often eliminate a lot of conjecture on anyone else's part.

Sam

< Message edited by samboct -- 5/7/2009 1:49:32 PM >

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Post #: 82

RE: Would you buy an american car? - 5/7/2009 1:51:53 PM

Hardbutt

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A Crossover is a vehicle constructed like a car (unibody) that looks like a pickup, SUV or van but does not have a true frame which legally defines a truck. Honda does not make a truck, they are all unibodies which is why their 4x4 is not serious for off-roading (they have a stamped steel welded "frame"). Unibody construction is built without a frame, their strength is in the shape of the floor pan (lower side rails and transmission tunnel) and the roof pillars. That is why cars have crumple zones and trucks do not... frames don't crumple. And that's why convertibles are generally heavier then hard tops, they have to add sub frame connectors to build back the lost strength.

Ford Flex gets it's name, if I recall correctly, from being able to use flexible fuel options, various levels of ethanol higher than the typical 10% now available everywhere. Ford Rangers have been available with flex fuel options for almost ten years, the 3 liter six with the little leaf and road badge on the tailgate. Some flex fuel vehicles can run on very high levels of ethanol, but burn twice as much of it per mile traveled. Imagine filling the tank every 150 miles!

BTW, ethanol is a total ripoff. Alcohol has half the latent energy content (BTU's, if you will) of gasoline so mileage suffers. Plus the increase in corn production has run up food prices and is killing the Gulf of Mexico where the all the fertilizer run-off from the Mississippi dumps. This week the east coast of Florida is getting another red tide bloom, something that never happened until a few years ago. My friends in Georgia always comment how their gas mile drops when they buy gas in Florida. I have tested and found that it costs me one and half mpg, and I have tracked every gallon of gas I've bought since 2003.

And yet we pay for 'watered' down gas which the subsidized with your tax money! We are getting stuck three ways with this deal and now our leaders what to up the levels to 15%, which might even destroy the rubber fuel system parts in cars built more than a few years ago... talk about boosting cars sales, sales tax and road taxes all at once! Burn more fuel to go the same distance but increase the hidden costs with taxes. And ethanol production puts more carbon dioxide in the air than just burning highly refined gasoline, so the net gain is negative no matter how you measure it with ethanol.

To me, the answer to reducing oil dependence must include tax penalties for vehicles over 6000 pounds and to build neighborhoods designed for bicycles and pedestrians, like green ways and central shopping hubs.

The talk of reducing "green house" gas emissions by legislating tougher laws is ignorant. An extremely efficient engine producing almost no hydrocarbon waste will get better mileage and produce the highest levels of carbon dioxide... CO2 is the by product of clean burning! If we reduce combustion efficiency by law, we reduce mileage and increase hydrocarbon (toxic) waste just to "reduce" CO2. How about we reduce CO2 levels by not cutting down all the trees that use it to produce oxygen we breathe? Or is that too much for our elected officials to fit into their political games? Congress's laws do not trump the laws of chemistry and physics. It is not possible to reduce CO2 levels AND hydrocarbon levels (and oxides of nitrogen, the other regulated tailpipe emission) without reducing the amount of weight moved per mile per day. That means a big diet of both vehicle weight and daily miles driven.

We can each help by cleaning out our trunks, pump up our tires, and don't accelerate or brake hard to save gas. And don't drive your engine hard until it is fully warmed up, both for efficiency and for longevity. Find the recommended tire pressure in the handbook or the door jam. The pressure on the tire is the maximum for the tire when carrying maximum weight, not the pressure for a normally loaded vehicle. It amazes me how many minimum wage tire changers think that my vehicle needs 50psi (max on the tire) when the owner's manual says 30psi.

Sorry to rant on about this, but I have found that most people don't know this stuff, and my hope is that more people learn that this will make a difference to us all.

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Post #: 83

RE: Would you buy an american car? - 5/7/2009 1:54:24 PM

kittinSol

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You're so helpful, Sam, thank you :-) . What about the Santa Fe (Hyundai)?

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Post #: 84

RE: Would you buy an american car? - 5/7/2009 2:01:05 PM

BKSir

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I would NEVER buy another hyundai. Had two, and they were both the worst pieces of crap I have ever set eyes on. I literally could not go a week without trouble, making them giant paperweights. And these were new! I would almost refuse to take one for free, to be completely blunt about it.

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Post #: 85

RE: Would you buy an american car? - 5/7/2009 2:38:50 PM

popeye1250

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct
There's no disagreeing that a 'Burban is a tank- but I know a lot of people that after they get use to them, grow to really like the brutes.

But... it's so large it's scary. And it looks like the kind of car a fascist would drive, you know, the kind with "McCain/Palin" stickers on them .

Kittin, the Ford Expedition would be the vehicle for you .
They've been around for years and they're not as big as the Suburban.
You can get a good deal on a used one I'm sure and they have three rows of seats and carry 8 people. They have four-wheel drive for winter too.
Check out some used ones in your area in Yahoo Autos.
Yeah, you'd look like a member of the Young Republican Club riding around in a Suburban with a, "I can see Russia from here" bumpersticker. "Go Sarah!"

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Post #: 86

RE: Would you buy an american car? - 5/7/2009 3:54:44 PM

kittinSol

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BKSir

I would NEVER buy another hyundai. Had two, and they were both the worst pieces of crap I have ever set eyes on. I literally could not go a week without trouble, making them giant paperweights. And these were new! I would almost refuse to take one for free, to be completely blunt about it.

See, that's weird - my husband's Elantra clocks 239,000 miles (he got it new) and it still runs like a dream. It never game him any trouble.

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Post #: 87

RE: Would you buy an american car? - 5/7/2009 4:11:31 PM

sirsholly

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sappatoti

~FR to Kittin~

You might want to also check out the Ford Expedition. It's a similar vehicle to that of a Chevy Suburban. I've ridden in both and they're both nice vehicles (I'm a Mopar fan myself). I've also spent a winter or two in New Hampshire (Goffstown area) and I wouldn't want to be in anything less capable then either a Suburban or Expedition.

Mini-vans, though they be front-wheel drive, aren't the type of vehicle I'd recommend for serious winter driving.

Kittin...just an FYI. Hubby rolled our Ford Explorer in an ice storm this past winter. The only reason he walked away was because that vehicle protected him.

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Post #: 88

RE: Would you buy an american car? - 5/7/2009 4:19:31 PM

LookieNoNookie

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The last car I bought was a Toyota....Prius.

Great vehicle.

Previous to that, all American cars.

Not so great.

I buy a new rig every 18 - 24 months.

It's unlikely I'll purchase an American badged vehicle in the foreseeable future.

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Post #: 89

RE: Would you buy an american car? - 5/7/2009 4:24:58 PM

kittinSol

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

Kittin...just an FYI. Hubby rolled our Ford Explorer in an ice storm this past winter. The only reason he walked away was because that vehicle protected him.

Woah... I'm glad he was okay, Holly.

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Post #: 90

RE: Would you buy an american car? - 5/7/2009 4:32:48 PM

sirsholly

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

Kittin...just an FYI. Hubby rolled our Ford Explorer in an ice storm this past winter. The only reason he walked away was because that vehicle protected him.

Woah... I'm glad he was okay, Holly.

thanks Sweetie. It was a great ride to have in the winter. And i know NH winters can be a challenge!!

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Post #: 91

RE: Would you buy an american car? - 5/7/2009 5:08:49 PM

CruelNUnsual

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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct
There's no disagreeing that a 'Burban is a tank- but I know a lot of people that after they get use to them, grow to really like the brutes.

But... it's so large it's scary. And it looks like the kind of car a fascist would drive, you know, the kind with "McCain/Palin" stickers on them .

Kittin, the Ford Expedition would be the vehicle for you .

Oh yeah..had one of those also..an Eddie Bauer. It was awful. In a large SUV with a budget in mind the Highlander is the best bet. If you go used 4 Runners and Sequoias.

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Post #: 92

RE: Would you buy an american car? - 5/7/2009 7:06:36 PM

samboct

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Hi Kittin

You're most welcome :) Anyhow- I drove a Hyundai Santa Fe from CT to Pittsburgh and back- it was a rental. I was rather underwhelmed with the thing- it's handling sucked to say the least. It had very few redeeming features from what I could see- and the seats weren't very comfy on a long haul either. Nobody in my crowd has one. Hyundai has been building econoboxes a lot longer and has probably worked most of the bugs out.

I've driven 'Burbans- they actually go down the highway quite well if they haven't got the real slog through the mud rubber on.

However, I'm reading between a bit between the lines- sounds like neither you nor your hubby are car people. I'm guessing both of you like to get in, turn the key and go and whatever gets you there is fine. Do you really want a goes like hell in the snow vehicle? That calls for ground clearance (translation- high center of gravity), high profile tires (to take bumps without blowing rims) and relatively skinny tires along with a long planform so that it wants to stay in a straight line. None of this makes for a good handling car in the dry. And lugging around 6 people and gear means that it's got to be big or a minivan. Actually, you might want to gamble and check out the Flex- if you don't push it hard, the tranny might be OK- and besides I'm guessing on that one. Sounds like you like the look of the car and that's important. Besides, since it's on the Taurus chassis- it should handle OK- better than the 'Burban or any other SUV.

Have fun with your shopping-

Sam

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Post #: 93

RE: Would you buy an american car? - 5/7/2009 7:12:20 PM

Aileen1968

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I've driven a Ford Thunderbird, Ford Crown Victoria, Ford Bronco, Plymouth Laser, Chevy Tahoe and a GM Yukon. Obviously I like American cars. The Bronco and Tahoe are the definite favorites.

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Post #: 94

RE: Would you buy an american car? - 5/7/2009 7:15:17 PM

kittinSol

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Actually, he'd love to be a car person if he could afford it - I don't really care as long as a vehicle: handles well, is safe, good looking, solid, reliable, honest, doesn't cost too much in maintenance/repair, and with a good sense of humour. A bit like a man, really. See, I'm not too difficult.

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RE: Would you buy an american car? - 5/7/2009 8:18:50 PM

Tempestv

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I currently drive a '96 F150 with 215k on the clock. I bought it a year and a half ago, and since that time, it has almost spent as much time in 4x4 as 2wd. I bounced it down rough logging roads that required 4x4 every day for over a year, and I still frequently run it off road. I pull trailers, and haul a full bed of tools on a regular basis. I know that before I owned it, it was a jobsite truck, which means almost constant 4x4, hauling heavy loads all the time, and being driven by people that don't tend to take care of it. And yet, it still runs fine. Granted, running it up and down the logging roads while heavily loaded did some damage to the front end, but it still runs down the road just fine at interstate speeds.
The only thing I don't like about it is the regular cab, and the gas millage.
My next truck will be a 3/4 ton extended or crew cab diesel with a manual. Dodge or older Ford, since I'm not too crazy about Chevy independent front ends or 6.0l power strokes.

I have no problems with many of the imports either. I'm considering a small truck to go along with the big truck, and besides the ranger, Toyota, Mazda (both ranger clones and pre-ranger clones), and Nissan are all potentials.

I have great respect for Toyota, the production methods pioneered by Toyota are still considered the cutting edge for increasing product quality. I also have a lot of respect for Ford, who was smart enough to take a good look at what Toyota was doing and copy many features.

Personally, I would tend to consider 100k on the ticker to be rather new, and if the vehicle can't reach at least 200k, that's pretty pathetic, particularly if it's led a pampered life.

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RE: Would you buy an american car? - 5/7/2009 8:23:06 PM

sappatoti

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Actually, he'd love to be a car person if he could afford it - I don't really care as long as a vehicle: handles well, is safe, good looking, solid, reliable, honest, doesn't cost too much in maintenance/repair, and with a good sense of humour. A bit like a man, really. See, I'm not too difficult.

Snowmobiles! Everyone in your family gets a sled and you all travel together as a group everywhere you need to go.

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RE: Would you buy an american car? - 5/8/2009 2:38:41 AM

Irishknight

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tempestv

I have great respect for Toyota, the production methods pioneered by Toyota are still considered the cutting edge for increasing product quality. I also have a lot of respect for Ford, who was smart enough to take a good look at what Toyota was doing and copy many features.

Ford actually had the plan layed at their feet before Toyota. All of the American car companies were approached by the American whose brainchild is now called the"Toyota Manufacturing System."
As far as the system being the cutting edge, I've seen it ruin profitable factories as well as help others. When I worked for Whirlpool, we lost so many days of production due to that system that it was ridiculous. One late truck causes a full day of lost production. Paying employees to stand around and not work is by any definition unprofitable.
During the time that I was employed at a Kohler plant, it helped greatly reduce wasted material. The system has its good points but is highly overrated as a "one size fits all" system.

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RE: Would you buy an american car? - 5/8/2009 12:12:06 PM

Jeptha

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I should pony up and admit that I also have a prejudice resulting from my perception of American V. Japenese executive culture.

That being: if a Japanese executive cranks out an inferior product, he must not only resign, but commit suicide as well. It's the only honorable thing.

With an American executive, as long as the key people made money, that's the standard of success. Quality is a factor in success, but not the measure of it.
Now - of course, the goal is to have the thing pay for itself...
What I mean is that the over-emphasis on profit interfers at some point with quality, to the point that the product can suffer.

Like I said, it's a bias. Not proud, but it is what it is.

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RE: Would you buy an american car? - 5/8/2009 1:18:54 PM

Hardbutt

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LOL! That was the 60's!
In industrialized Japan, Capitalism has replaced Bushido.

My dad worked in Japan throughout the 70's, a friend was stationed there in the 80's, and my brother law traveled on business there regularly in the 90's... Forget what Japan used to be, it ain't no more! I've been there too.

Toyota is losing money, but you can bet we won't be reading about mass hari kari in the executive ranks. And with Toyota being the biggest now, you will find that they now also have very big recalls... quality is not made of quantity.

You carry a big bias that many have carried since the 70's when the Yen was worth one third of what is now (360 vs 115) and everything from Japan was cheap, not necessarily better. In the mind of many Americans, cheaper = better. That's why WalMart is a bigger trading partner to China than all but 7 or 8 countries. But a car with a Japanese label is about like one with a German label...VW and Porsche Boxter are Mexican built, for example... you don't know what you are getting unless you dig deep. Once the Yen became strong against the dollar, the price advantage was gone and the reality of mass production settled for the Japanese, just like it did for GM and Ford. If the Unions win the use of card signing instead of secret ballots, you can bet that some Japanese companies will pack up and head to Mexico or Canada.

Recall the economic meltdown in Japan a while ago... the result of too many loans to business without solid working plans and lacking collateral to secure the loans... just like our Housing meltdown right now. Risky loans! Give up the past, it's history.

You do know that most Japanese electronics are not built in Japan anymore, right? They've outsourced to the lowest contractor like the best of the capitalist manufacturers.

Pick a model and a year, not a brand. Brand means nothing except premium price.

< Message edited by Hardbutt -- 5/8/2009 1:35:57 PM >

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Post #: 100

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