Honor; Is It Dead? (Full Version)

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cpK69 -> Honor; Is It Dead? (5/9/2009 7:10:42 AM)

“You’re the best we’ve got!”  It doesn’t matter. (In not so many words)

I’m feeling a bit confused about the above message, I received from the two top managers in the building, of the company I work for.

After receiving a three out of twelve possible points, on a recent yearly review, I requested a meeting between the GM, Ops, both merchandising managers, and I. (Is two out of four bad?)

I asked for the meeting, to put to rest the ongoing discrepancies in communication (apparently also not important), and I got tired of getting a run around, when attempting to defending my ability and willingness to work productively.

The whole situation has me wondering, if doing my job correctly does not matter to them, should it matter to me?

Kim



Raechard -> RE: Honor; Is It Dead? (5/9/2009 7:46:39 AM)

If two out of four mangers said you are the best they have, wouldn't you have expected at least 6 out of 12 points? These reviews are important when it comes to redundancy reviews as you end up competing with everyone else who does a similar job to you on a points system.



cpK69 -> RE: Honor; Is It Dead? (5/9/2009 7:53:01 AM)


I am getting the impression I was competing for their bonuses.
Kim



DarkSteven -> RE: Honor; Is It Dead? (5/9/2009 8:04:19 AM)

Kim, with all due respect, I find it hard to follow your above message, and wonder if communication might be an issue at work.

The GM is the General Manager.  The top honcho.  If he's in the building, then he's one of the two top managers that complimented you.  I assume that Ops is the Operations Manager?  If so, he'd be the other one.

As you can see from the above, I'm not sure how the four you called relate to the two who complimented you.  I assume that you invited those who liked your work.  The "Is two out of four bad" comment seems to back that up.  If not, then the comment is confusing.

Why did you not ask an HR rep to the meeting?

Is your manager aware of the top managers' opinions of you? (Assuming he's not one of them?)  Next time you get a compliment like that, will you ask to have them send a quick email to your manager?

"The whole situation has me wondering, if doing my job correctly does not matter to them, should it matter to me? "

Every time I've seen an attitude like that, it never ended well.  With the review you received, you are not well positioned in the company.  If you want to do anything about it, moping or sabotaging will not help.  Looking for another job will help.

Good luck, and I hope you turn this around.






ienigma777 -> RE: Honor; Is It Dead? (5/9/2009 8:29:15 AM)

Pardon me, but the topic of the thread, by it's title; 'Honor, Is it Dead'......what has the situation you described have to do with the topic as entitled?



cpK69 -> RE: Honor; Is It Dead? (5/9/2009 8:46:50 AM)

Hello, Steven
Yes, I meant General Manger and Operations Manager; and they are the ones that ‘complimented’ me. (felt more like a slap in the face... fifteen cent raise) The other two, are my immediate managers; one of which says he does not understand why the other badgers (not sure that’s the best word) me the way he does.

I wanted all of them there, because the one I am having problems with, keeps running to the top two, to “tell on me”; therefore causing the need for me to go to them and defend myself. Also, the lack of ability of the two lower managers, to do their jobs correctly, causes extra work for everyone else on the “team”. Though, in defense of the one, I believe he is willing, and may just lack training. Also, he claims to have had no part in writing the review, and that would not be unusual…. But, he doesn’t have much of a backbone either, so who knows.

I was hoping to resolve the issue without involving HR. My experience has been, making waves causes grief for the one who makes them; the bigger the waves, the more grief.

I don’t know who knows what, the two Sr Managers said they have told the other two, but.... That is why I wanted them all there, so I would know we are all on the same page.

Thing is, it does matter to me; I just don’t understand how they can say it matters to them, and then tell me I’m wrong, while telling me I’m the one who does it best. It’s not computing.

A new job, yes; I’ve got my eyes open.

Kim



cpK69 -> RE: Honor; Is It Dead? (5/9/2009 9:14:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ienigma777

Pardon me, but the topic of the thread, by it's title; 'Honor, Is it Dead'......what has the situation you described have to do with the topic as entitled?


I’m sure there is a hidden message for me, in there, somewhere.

Perhaps something like… “You are concerning yourself over your honor of doing your job well, when you have already sacrificed your honor in staying at this job”.

Just guessing.

Kim



cpK69 -> RE: Honor; Is It Dead? (5/9/2009 10:52:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69

I’m sure there is a hidden message for me, in there, somewhere.

Perhaps something like… “You are concerning yourself over your honor of doing your job well, when you have already sacrificed your honor in staying at this job”.

Just guessing.

Kim


This was sort of a copout. It is probably the reason it bothers me so much, but at the same time, I don’t think the issue is secluded to this one business.

I think it is the results of the goal becoming ‘get as much as you can, for as little as possible’, therefore, quality goes out the window. Being able to say “we did the job” has become more important than being able to say, “We did the job right”.

I’ve encountered it before, so I’m wondering if I won’t just keep running into the same problem.

Kim



Raechard -> RE: Honor; Is It Dead? (5/9/2009 11:14:03 AM)

There is no real work in management only managing the work of others. Is this what you are getting at?
 
Sad but true the perfectionist doesn't get rewarded in the modern world.



cpK69 -> RE: Honor; Is It Dead? (5/9/2009 11:25:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raechard

There is no real work in management only managing the work of others. Is this what you are getting at?
 
Sad but true the perfectionist doesn't get rewarded in the modern world.


... and poorly, at that.

Kim



ienigma777 -> RE: Honor; Is It Dead? (5/9/2009 11:34:31 AM)

Your Job, the subsequent issues, is not one of Honor, but of loyality, and being reconized for that loyality. Of course there is honor in being loyal; but what I precieved, is moreso the question of loyality.
Here is a REAL-LIFE example: What kind of GM or owner/employer, piles on a workload of actually 3 other people, upon one person, no raise, no bonus, just more work, that person (employee) never complains, but takes on the extra assignments, and responsibilities, and continues to perform at maximum level. Now, here is the kicker: the employee, has for meger wages, worked and saved for years...Whalla...the person buys a small house, (the owner/GM/employer incidently owns a High Rise Apt. in Las Vegas, A home inside a gated comunity inside a gated community, and another home in Europe, a ranch in the northern US).....The GM/owner /employer, fines out the employee, just bought a small house...immediately upon this revelation, the GM/Owner/Employer cuts the person's hours in half.

THe GM/Business Owner/employer is a Christian, holds a Bible Study, off hours, (without compensation) once a week, and requires the employees to attend.

So, as I see it, There is Honor in being Loyal, but it is to who you extend that loyalty to, that matters.

There is Power, there is nothing inherently wrong with having power...it is how that power is used, that matters.

Honor is something very complex....those SS troops, were they honorable, while they murdered tousands of innocents...since they (the SS) were loyal to their leader?

Your thread is very interesting, and asks a question far deeper than the responses, thus far, as cited herein.

P.S.
In the movie 'Shindler's List'....a discussion with Shindler and the Commander of a Camp facility......okay, it goes something like this.....The discussion is on Power, the Commander having the ultimate power of life and death over the prisoners...."what is real Power"....as the commander shoots another prisoner from his balcony....."Real, absolute power over people's lives is this; to point and say 'LIVE'" .....which translates to mean, create, enhance other's with your prosperty, to grant other's the means to enjoy life, when that means to do so are in your hands.

The last 8 years of power, the results of that power, are appalling, and cannot be justified. The most powerful man on earth, did what he did, for money.



cpK69 -> RE: Honor; Is It Dead? (5/9/2009 12:38:19 PM)

The situation you describe does not fit the one I am in.

I don’t believe what I am feeling has anything to do with loyalty, though I was concerned about pride.

I base how I do the job on what is considered standard, the way I was taught. I rarely meet those I “serve” directly, and those I serve from a distance, know me as a number.

As for those with immediate authority, I am getting mixed signals on what they want. So I have to ask who, or what would you say I am being loyal to?

quote:

Honor is something very complex....those SS troops, were they honorable, while they murdered tousands of innocents...since they (the SS) were loyal to their leader?


I wonder how many were loyal, and how many were afraid?

I don’t think being loyal automatically constitutes honor. Isn’t it more about the cause?

quote:

....."Real, absolute power over people's lives is this; to point and say 'LIVE'"


Isn’t the real power in fear of death?

quote:

The most powerful man on earth, did what he did, for money.

Do you think if we stop thinking like this, we might be any better off?

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I don't want you to think my response implies I don't apreciate it; I'm just feeling a bit 'numb' right now.

Kim



kdsub -> RE: Honor; Is It Dead? (5/9/2009 1:11:17 PM)

Hi Kim

I worked 40 years for one organization... in that time I had good and bad supervisors... at least until I became one. All I can say is just be true to yourself... Do a good job and when you retire or move on you will always be proud of what you've done. I know how good I was and so do those that worked with me. To this day that is all that is important to me.

Butch



cpK69 -> RE: Honor; Is It Dead? (5/9/2009 8:13:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Hi Kim

I worked 40 years for one organization... in that time I had good and bad supervisors... at least until I became one. All I can say is just be true to yourself... Do a good job and when you retire or move on you will always be proud of what you've done. I know how good I was and so do those that worked with me. To this day that is all that is important to me.

Butch


Thanks, Butch

Sometimes I forget/need to be reminded.

Kim



Aneirin -> RE: Honor; Is It Dead? (5/10/2009 5:07:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raechard

There is no real work in management only managing the work of others. Is this what you are getting at?
 
Sad but true the perfectionist doesn't get rewarded in the modern world.


... and poorly, at that.

Kim


All I can say is be true to yourself in whatever you decide to do. You value honour, stick to it, one day honour will come back into fashion and all those that have no honour will be plain to see and there distrust.

It is a sad reflection on the society of today that people think less of doing the best job possible and more of profits made through saved time and a shoddy job, where once money has changed hands, the attitude is 'next', the past customer already forgotten and their concerns.

You might feel out dated in this modern world, but the values instilled in you are from a more caring time, all you can do is the right thing, treat others how you would like to be treated yourself.





cpK69 -> RE: Honor; Is It Dead? (5/10/2009 8:34:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

All I can say is be true to yourself in whatever you decide to do.


I have been wondering what this should be, thinking perhaps it is time to move on. Your words gave me another possibility; I could instead, work harder at helping the second manager to form a team.

Could work….

quote:

You value honour, stick to it, one day honour will come back into fashion and all those that have no honour will be plain to see and there distrust.


This reminds me of the description of another “showing”; I get the impression it will not be pretty.

Do you think, outside of Earth time, all things run on time, so that it would not be possible to be late?

quote:

It is a sad reflection on the society of today that people think less of doing the best job possible and more of profits made through saved time and a shoddy job, where once money has changed hands, the attitude is 'next', the past customer already forgotten and their concerns.

My source implies, to me, that man is at ‘the beginning, and the end’. It is hard to imagine where man could go from here, without change. My source also implies there will be a ‘new man’; though no clues as to when, other then, he appears to be hatching (not sure that is the right word).

It will be interesting to see if these things come to pass. Makes me wish I was better at drawing; if nothing else, they are very intriguing images and it would be nice to share.

quote:

You might feel out dated in this modern world, but the values instilled in you are from a more caring time, all you can do is the right thing, treat others how you would like to be treated yourself.


Yes, with liberty and justice.

Thank you, your response helped in enabling me to see a new direction.

Kim



Irishknight -> RE: Honor; Is It Dead? (5/10/2009 11:35:12 AM)

Personal honor will tell you always to do the very best job that you can.  Loyalty is merely "doing the 9 to 5" as so many do.  Integrity and personal honor means settling for nothing but the best out of yourself.  Anyone who tells you it doesn't matter... doesn't matter.



Vendaval -> RE: Honor; Is It Dead? (5/10/2009 1:40:45 PM)

Hello Kim,
 
My advice is to always consider the big picture and the long term goals.  What is going to be best for you in the long run?  Whether you are at this job for a significant period of time or go elsewhere?  Do you want to risk having a negative review in the future that might affect your results here or when applying at another place?


quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69
The whole situation has me wondering, if doing my job correctly does not matter to them, should it matter to me?

Kim



cpK69 -> RE: Honor; Is It Dead? (5/11/2009 9:25:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight

Personal honor will tell you always to do the very best job that you can.  Loyalty is merely "doing the 9 to 5" as so many do.  Integrity and personal honor means settling for nothing but the best out of yourself.  Anyone who tells you it doesn't matter... doesn't matter.


The idea seems bizarre to me. (Just an observation; not a criticism.)
… or acknowledging inabilities; yes?

Hello Vendaval,

You’ve raised some very good points. Unfortunately, my particular personality/perspective poses a problem in the aspect you mention. Part of the problem being, I still don’t know “what I want to be when I grow up”, (not sure I ever will), so it is hard for me to consider things in a sense of long term goals; outside of understanding, I will probably need a reserve of money, if I live past the time I am able to work, to earn it.

I’ve had to compensate, so instead, I try to take advantage of the opportunities that arise, to advance abilities, in whatever situation life sends my way.  At least until another opportunity arises. I often debate whether or not I am holding on too long, or giving up to easy. (It sucks)

I’ve been wondering if this would serve well as an opportunity in learning to lead better, from behind the scenes. The position fits my personality well, and allows for the ‘hands on’ work, where I achieve the greatest sense of purpose.

I am not sure how to assess if this line of thinking will end with positive results, under these circumstances, but in the past, I was more likely to give up, give in, or seclude myself; I think it might be worth a try to stick it out, and do what I do best, empower someone else.

Seem senseable?

Kim



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