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RE: Cheaper to rent or to own a house? - 5/13/2009 3:22:58 PM   
DemonKia


Posts: 5521
Joined: 10/13/2007
From: Chico, Nor-Cali
Status: offline 		As I pointed out, I rent. & I never plan on retiring. So my calculations are very different from yours. Which is true for most. Everyone pretty much has to do their own money calculations, either that or hope that whatever propaganda they're following somewhat mindlessly will deliver the hoped-for rewards . . ..

& I do consider a great deal of the rather thoughtless exposition of 'it's always best to own rather than buy' as propaganda, mostly on behalf (knowingly or not) of the real-estate sales industry & the bankers who profit from selling mortgages . . . ...

(& a side note about the idea that one can fall back on one's house if the overall economy goes kerflooey enough to undermine one's investment portfolio: if the economy is so screwed that a retiree cannot collect pensions, Social Security, et alia, that economy may not make that house into the asset it was previously viewed as . . .. . See again the case of all those would-be retirees who are not currently able to retire as previously planned cuz the same inter-connected financial markets give value to all the various classes of assets . . . .. & if everybody is screwed at the same time, there's no one to sell any of those assets to . . . . . Just ask all those who're trying to sell their houses for some kind of gain right now . . . . . . . )

Another thought I had about buying a house right at this juncture in time, especially here in the US: Peak Oil.

My suspicion is that the biggest chunk of 'cheap housing' that's gonna be for sale, now & for the foreseeable future, is the stuff that's farthest from the dense urban centers . . . . . I personally am planning on gasoline prices rising quite exorbitantly in just the next 5 years . . . . . & I feel some pity for those who are gonna buy far-flung 'bargain-basement-priced housing' last year, this year, & next, but that deal is gonna end up being not so fabulous when gasoline is priced at $4 or more per gallon . . . . . .

This clearly does not apply to the Euro countries that have more presciently priced gasoline already, & a populace that does not feel entitled to live in the wilderness & complain about 2 hour long car commutes . . .... .

& a final, much more long-term thought. Fertility levels are plummeting wherever industrial-urban living is the norm; have been for some decades now . . .. (Yay! industrial-urbanization is the best birth control yet invented, but that's a whole other topic . . . .)

Somewhere around 2050 global population is gonna peak & go into decline from that point forward . . . . .

The consequence for real-estate are significant, as they will no longer be making extra people to push housing markets ever higher & higher . .... Remember that the mantra of why real-estate is always a good deal is, 'they're not making any more land (but they keep churning out the babies)' . . ... . Except that the churning out the babies thing is in serious decline wherever women have options other than being baby-making-machines . . . . . . .

In fact, what happens to real-estate prices when there are fewer people every year than the year before? This would be more than a rhetorical question here in the US if it weren't for our infilling population declines thru immigration. We would have started experiencing population decline a decade or two ago if it were not for immigration.

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RE: Cheaper to rent or to own a house? - 5/13/2009 5:20:07 PM   
LookieNoNookie


Posts: 12216
Joined: 8/9/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

Are you better off buying, leasing or renting a house?  How is the market in your area?  Are all the repairs and taxes worth the effort in the long run?


"Real Estate: Buy or Rent?"


By Stephane Fitch with Matthew Woolsey, Forbes.com
May 8th, 2009  
"Conventional wisdom is that renting is equivalent to throwing money away. That wisdom is wrong, and not only because home prices occasionally crash. It can be wrong in a flat market, too. Pay a high enough price in relation to rental value, and you're getting a raw deal, even if the price holds up. It's like paying a lot of money for a stock with a meager dividend. This is a bad deal in a flat market.

During the housing bull market it was easy to lose sight of the relationship between price and earnings (earnings being the rental value of a home). Assume that house prices will go up forever and you can kid yourself that earnings don't matter. But as the country has discovered in the past two years, house prices do not go up forever. Earnings matter.

It pays to do the math, and that means thinking in terms of net rent. That's the annual rent a house would command, minus property taxes, insurance, maintenance costs, losses from occasional vacancies and any fees paid to property managers. The house you live in has slightly higher earnings than the same one you rent out to a stranger, because you aren't paying for a property manager."

http://realestate.yahoo.com/promo/real-estate-buy-or-rent.html


ALWAYS buying.

Forget the current issues....buying is always better.

(Thus endeth the lesson).

(in reply to Vendaval)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Cheaper to rent or to own a house? - 5/13/2009 11:11:17 PM   
ienigma777


Posts: 283
Joined: 2/20/2009
Status: offline 		Well,you have made a point.....Owning Vs. Renting and Buying stocks and bonds...the experts are Right as always...that's why the stock markets are seeking their share of the bailout 'rescue' money. Those that 'rented' are paying more for their rent, no equity in the monies paid out...but they may have stocks...with companies that crashed, are extinct now, but those CEOs certainly got paid their millions of bonuses while their companies failed. Did those 'renter' stock holders get any of their investment back ?

If you bought at that 'hyper manipulated market price' a 1/2 million dollar house with 6500 dollar per month house payment, when you are only bringing in 2700 per month......what did you expect the values to do. The number crunching experts all, were telling everyone how prices will never go down, times are good...except for a very few who warned of a collaspe, and were delegated to 3AM newspots for 3 minutes, or less.

All lending institutions have a standing rule (or did have)...to qualify to purchase a house the buyer must be making 4 1/2 times the monthly payment.

So the market value dropped, then came 'short sales'.....and the houses are still high.

Don't forget, the loans to builders were there to, the contractors, all banks making loans.....they built, the banks lent, and the economy came a-tumbing down, the stocks and bonds became worthless, the CEOs all left with their million dollar bonuses....the owners are forclosed, they are now renting, at high prices, with absolutely no chance of a return of any rental money spent. But, from their (the renters) good credit standing , (Ahem) after forclosure, can now take their money and invest with a non exsistent stock broker.

The renters lease, or deal with the rent increases every so many months; and the house owner just stays where he is, if he likes he either can rent his house, get someone else to make the mortgage payment, take the depreceaction on his taxes, raise the rent at whim, or sell, take the money and run.

The now renter can take his extra money, buy a Cadillac, (made in China) ..... oh, since he was forclosed on, his credit score is in the shithouse...so he'll pay more on interest, being an untrustworthy credit risk.

Yeah, I always abide by the knowledgeable words of the experts.

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RE: Cheaper to rent or to own a house? - 5/13/2009 11:33:02 PM   
heartcream


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Status: offline 		I want to live where That Dam Panda lives. It sounds like paradise. Good for you!

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RE: Cheaper to rent or to own a house? - 5/13/2009 11:36:07 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: heartcream

I want to live where That Dam Panda lives. It sounds like paradise. Good for you!


Thank you. I am extremely fortunate. (As i lie in bed listening to the owls hooting in the backyard just outside the bedroom window.... )


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RE: Cheaper to rent or to own a house? - 5/13/2009 11:51:11 PM   
GreedyTop


Posts: 52100
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From: Savannah, GA
Status: offline 		I've got frogs and crickets tonight.  too bad it's too muggy to keep the windows open.....

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RE: Cheaper to rent or to own a house? - 5/14/2009 12:12:05 AM   
BKSir


Posts: 4037
Joined: 4/8/2008
From: Salt Lake City, UT
Status: offline 		I've always been in favour of buying over renting.  Case in point, we pay $1300/month rent, plus utils here.  For what we get, great price.  However, I happen to know for a fact that the house payment for the owner is $695 and coin.  Now, it is annoying, and I would LOVE to buy this house.  Hell, if I hit the powerball or something, I'd hand him 500k cash, an offer he can't refuse.  But as it stands, he's not interested in selling right now (gosh, wonder why... *coughmarketintheshittercough*).  If we could get him to agree to $350k (a more than fair price in any market on the house), I'd be extatic.  But, right now, I wouldn't take a $350k loan.  The only ones that would give it out would either have 40% interest rates, or collection agents named Guido and Nunzio.

EDIT:  Missed the argument about "an investment".  When it comes to a house, I couldn't give two flying rats asses about "investment".  I want to buy a house for me, where I live, with the people I live with.  If I want to invest, I'll invest in something.  Investing in a house for potential profit strikes me as silly, always has, even before the recent clusterf**k.  Why?  Well, see the aforementioned clusterf**k.  I'd rather lose my investment money, than lose my investment money AND house (as they're the same thing, if I buy a house as an investment).


< Message edited by BKSir -- 5/14/2009 12:16:50 AM >

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RE: Cheaper to rent or to own a house? - 5/14/2009 3:18:24 AM   
DemonKia


Posts: 5521
Joined: 10/13/2007
From: Chico, Nor-Cali
Status: offline 		Some thoughts.

One. The 'experts' were overwhelmingly pumping 'buy a house' for the last whatever-period-of-time-selected, only a few counter-'experts' were / are pointing out a more nuanced argument than 'buying is always better than renting' . . . . . So I'm kinda at a loss to see how 'buying is always better' is a 'new perspective' or otherwise some kind of expression of revolutionary fervor . . . . . *scratches head*

The 'expert bashing' thing really does plug my buttons. All I can think when I see that line of reasoning is: does the 'expert basher' not ever use anything that was designed or produced by some 'expert', like, say, a car. Designed by 'experts'. Built by 'experts'. Oh, my, gawd, they even hire evil statistics 'experts' to be quality control managers in factories, making sure that the 'error rates' are in acceptably small ranges -- gawd-damn 'experts' & their interference with the 'natural right' of engineered systems to fail. All those freaking 'experts' . . . . Yeah, I'm convinced now, expertise is such a lame thing to pursue or seek out in others. We should clearly all be seeking out the opinions of those who know nothing about any given subject, their opinions have to be just as good as any 'experts' . . . . ..

The quotes below, in my view, are basically ad hominem attack, & thus fallacious reasoning. FYI. There are many resources easily google-able for how to construct 'logical arguments' about ideas, rather than losing ones efforts in fallacy . . . . . . Again, FYI.

See, small minds discuss people, great minds discuss ideas. Or. At least that's what I've heard said by, oh, gosh, 'experts' . . . . .

quote:

ORIGINAL: ienigma777

...the experts are Right as always...

Yeah, I always abide by the knowledgeable words of the experts.


(in reply to ienigma777)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Cheaper to rent or to own a house? - 5/14/2009 7:46:28 AM   
LadyConstanze


Posts: 9722
Joined: 2/18/2005
Status: offline 		I think it depends a lot, in Germany I wouldn't have bought, ever, unless winning the lottery, a house or property ties you down over too many years, the market in the UK is much more mobile, mortgages are shorter and for me, it was actually a cost factor, the mortgage payments even with a high mortgage are cheaper than renting, now that mortgages have dropped so much, it's actually dirt cheap. Getting a house for the money it would cost me to rent a tiny flat - for me that was a no brainer, but I also know that I am prepared to hang on to the house for at least 5 to 10 years. It does tie me down somewhat, 10 years ago it wouldn't have been an option.

For me it was simply the cheaper option and the fact that I don't need to worry about a landlord cranking up the rent, that he might decide to sell and I'd be out on my ear, that I got the freedom to do with the space whatever I want to do and that instead of paying off somebody elses mortgage with my rent, I'm paying off my own and still have more disposable income. I also like the fact that I am central, as you said, gas prices are rising and are considerably higher in Europe than in the US, so being rather central has advantages, especially since I am a city gal and I'm rather slap bang in the middle of a city than somewhere out in the country with plenty of nature...

If it comes to wanting mobility, you're possibly better off renting, but if you want a place where you say "I want to stay here for the forseeable future, maybe 5 years" then buying might be a better idea. Both have their pros and cons and people need to decide what is important for them, in my teens and twenties, I could happily live in rather horrible flats and bedsits, I was never at home anyway, since I always preferred large cities (Munich, London, Dublin, NYC - none of them offer bargains for renters) and being central, I spent tons of money for really crappy flats, didn't bother me much. Now we both live together, both work a lot from home, got offices in the house (can write that off the tax), space is an issue, and again for me so much cheaper than to rent, I'm literally a 10 minute walk from the city center, about 5 minutes from the train station, I don't really need a car (again a lot more disposable income, we only need one car), for me buying worked at this point in my life, for others it might be completely different.

I would say before anybody considers buying, they might want to sit down and really think about it and not do it on a whim, you can rent on a whim but buying without having thought it through can ruin you.



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Those who do and those who don't!

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RE: Cheaper to rent or to own a house? - 5/14/2009 8:50:47 AM   
ienigma777


Posts: 283
Joined: 2/20/2009
Status: offline 		Ah, now you are off the topic (expert Bashing as you call it); I never began 'expert bashing'....but I guess you've been vacationing 'off Planet' for the last 8 years. Please return to topic.

The 'experts' catered to what was in fashion at the given moment, and those desenters, who tried to warn, were mostly delegated to a spot at 3 AM for a 3 minute interview at best. So there were desenters from the hyper inflated overpriced market. The marjority touted the buy frensy, owners were thrilled their 30,000 dollar house was now worth (however falsely) - 500,000 bucks. And if they sold at around there, BRAVO, GOOD FOR THEM...they made a killing in the hyper RE market.

The banks made money, with their 'phoney' loans, now they are in the RE business, taking write offs , owning the houses they sold before, demolishing the ones at whim if they need additional write off; getting their 35 billion dollar 'RESCUE' the RE agents made nice commissions, are still making nice commissions selling the repo's, they sold before, using the EBay type Auction, SHORT SALE crapolla term.

As for Designer Expert Bashing.....what are you talking about.....the Made in China Cadillac, Ford, Chevy....or mexican New Beetle? What?
We were talking about RE, not Liz Claybornie stuff.

The 'invester money market Broker' cateres to one enity....himself; his commission...if it turns out he's wrong with his advice...hey, he still got his commission, you lost your investment, if there is anything left, and you want to back out, there are the closing fees, and everyone makes money...except...who, take a guess.

If you like renting...fine...rent all your whole life...who cares...personally, I perfer buying, maybe owning one day...as anyone surely must realize, when you buy a home, you actually bought a mortgage...you pay on your mortgage, and you get to live in that pile of sticks, and stucco, and you may get some of your invested money back, or even make a profit.

They call it...'Buying a Home'....never will you see an advert...'Buying a Mortgage'.

(in reply to DemonKia)
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RE: Cheaper to rent or to own a house? - 5/14/2009 9:05:09 AM   
CallaFirestormBW


Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
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quote:

Original: DemonKia

As I pointed out, I rent. & I never plan on retiring. So my calculations are very different from yours. Which is true for most. Everyone pretty much has to do their own money calculations, either that or hope that whatever propaganda they're following somewhat mindlessly will deliver the hoped-for rewards . . ..


I'm in the same position as Kia. I rent, I never plan on retiring, and home prices and property taxes in our area are -exhorbitant- and certainly not worth the investment, even for someone like me who has the disposable income to be able to 'buy up' even in this economy -- just because you CAN buy something, that doesn't necessarily mean you -should- buy it. I may purchase at some point, just because I plan on going "non-urban" in the next 10 years or so, in order to be able to go "off grid" (which is pretty tuff in an urban environment), but to me, it makes absolutely -no- sense to buy in our current market, especially since the houses that could have been sold to someone like me who prefers small, personalized spaces over big, rambling, oversized, massive amounts of square footage per person have been torn down to make 7000 square foot, five-bedroom townhomes! (which are then populated by SuperSingles with three cars, a motorcycle, and a boat, that they park on the street because there's no room for it in their 2-car garage, which keeps everyone else from being able to drive on the damned streets -- am I annoyed... you bet your sweet bippy!)

Anyway, Here's to Gentrification *Passes around a nice glass of hemlock*

< Message edited by CallaFirestormBW -- 5/14/2009 9:07:56 AM >

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RE: Cheaper to rent or to own a house? - 5/14/2009 9:11:22 AM   
ienigma777


Posts: 283
Joined: 2/20/2009
Status: offline 		Now, as a sidebar to Dimonikia comment of small minds dicuss people, great minds discuss ideas.

People.....the last eight years was caused by, great minds discussing ideas.....and what are the people who have these great minds?

Discuss the idea of ...what? How to rape a once great nation, so the few 'great minds' can make a profit, on the blood of the common citizen? Driving the economy of the world into dept for the next 75 years or longer, so the 'great minds', the elite, can become even richer than they already are.....no thought of future generations who will come after.

One thing you should learn, is that a corporation, a government does not exist...these organizations while are established on paper are directed by people. People ARE the core of any organization.... there is nothing done, unless some 'people' do it, cause the 'done' to be done'.

There are no 'minds' in glass bubbles being great thinkers.

what's the use.

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RE: Cheaper to rent or to own a house? - 5/14/2009 9:56:34 AM   
BlackPhx


Posts: 3432
Joined: 11/8/2006
Status: offline 		I agree..when I think of the rental rates for a Decent Apartment down here and compare them to what we pay in total for PMI, taxes and Insurance..We are well ahead of the game. By decent I mean a place in a good neighborhood, that is larger than 400 sq feet, allows a pet or two preferably larger than 30 lbs and is convenient to market, shopping and transportation ( all of which we have with our house). The house across the street from ours is a rental, 3 bedrooms, tiny kitchen, dining/living room, 1 car garage on .24 acres and rents for S1200 a month, as I said earlier our payment is less than $500. Yeah the landlord will fix what goes wrong, but utilities et al including lawn are theirs to care for. An apartment or condo can easily rent for that much and more depending on location.

I rented long before I bought, and frankly, hated it..yes I could move whenever I wanted to, but, 1st, last and security aint easy while you are maintaining an apt and family, and getting security back from a landlord can be an exercise in wills. I have only had one who didn't give me a problem. Thankfully I kept pictures of the conditions when I moved in and when I moved out..Judges like that.

I guess I am kinda like Lex Luthor in this case.."People will always need Land" I think I will keep paying for my little piece..

poenkitten

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RE: Cheaper to rent or to own a house? - 5/14/2009 10:21:19 AM   
LadyConstanze


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BlackPhx


I rented long before I bought, and frankly, hated it..yes I could move whenever I wanted to, but, 1st, last and security aint easy while you are maintaining an apt and family, and getting security back from a landlord can be an exercise in wills. I have only had one who didn't give me a problem. Thankfully I kept pictures of the conditions when I moved in and when I moved out..Judges like that.

I guess I am kinda like Lex Luthor in this case.."People will always need Land" I think I will keep paying for my little piece..

poenkitten



Oh damned, yes, forgot the deposit nightmares, damned, I wish I would have made pics and all that, but often work required me to move to a different country or even continent, and landlords will figure that you won't have the time to fight from where you are, combined with all the stress of moving and what not...

Also getting a landlord to do repairs can be a battle of wills, I recall that in one flat a window was leaking, in the whole year I stayed there I could not get the landlord to repair it, in another place a pipe leaked, caused considerable damage to my furniture and not to mention the music system and TV, I tried to talk to the landlord about replacing them as it would be covered by his house maintenance insurance - next thing I knew was that he terminated my lease....
Then a window was damaged from the outside (center of town, a bunch of drunks throwing beer cans and stones) - called landlord, reported damage, asked him when he'll send somebody to fix it, he suggested that I call somebody myself and forward him the bill as he's not in the same city, yadda yadda... Anybody surprised that I never received the money...

I was first really against buying, but now I just love the feeling that I don't have to deal with a crappy landlord anymore, nobody can chuck me out, I'm paying less, I can have pets and don't need permission of the landlord...

Considering the deposits I lost, I would possibly have no mortgage at all but own the house outright, if I take into account how much rent I paid in almost 2 decades (including shitty little student flats, wet little basement flats, etc.) I'd possibly have enough money for a mansion, or instead of having a terraced house having the whole terrace of houses....

I don't regret that I rented, as I said I was in a job that required me to be very mobile, while I still have to be pretty mobile, now living near an airport is good enough. Not sure if I could ever go back to renting, it is a good feeling to know that the 4 walls that surround you are actually your own!

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RE: Cheaper to rent or to own a house? - 5/14/2009 11:40:56 AM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: heartcream

I want to live where That Dam Panda lives. It sounds like paradise. Good for you!


Well, I don't need an alarm clock!
I just leave the slider open and awaken to the golfers swearing in the morning.

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RE: Cheaper to rent or to own a house? - 5/14/2009 11:43:43 AM   
Vendaval


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Status: offline 		Yeah, but do you throw their stray balls back at them? 

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RE: Cheaper to rent or to own a house? - 5/14/2009 12:20:31 PM   
ienigma777


Posts: 283
Joined: 2/20/2009
Status: offline 		Pardon me butting in....I agree with you, I rented and had the very same landlord problems you cited...as well as Lady Constance; having to call my own repair guy, reimburse ya stuff. When I bought....all I did was trade rent for mortgage, nice house, spaceous, good neigborhood, and most likely in a few years, if I want, I can sell it, and make a profit....that is, recouperating the mortgage payments and then some.

If the renters like renting, good for them.

Most of the time, when I meet someone, and RE talk begins and they attempt to convince me renting is the thing to do.....is when these 'renters' cannot afford to buy...because they just plainly haven't got the moola. It's the envy thing.

Oh, BTW, I also owned rentals, so I lived both as a renter and as a homeowner and as a landlord. I would buy a rundown house, not too rundown, live in it, repair what needed to be repaired, and done it right; bought another, moved in, repeated the process, over and over; rented at a decent prices, I wanted my renter to stay, and not have to worry about the repairs. I built equity, they paid my mortgages, I took the depreciactions.

So, it was nice, I get along with my renters, what the hell. No great mind 'IDEA' here, and the experts....well they have more noteworthy ideas.

But people like Demonkia will listen to the great mind experts.

(in reply to BlackPhx)
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RE: Cheaper to rent or to own a house? - 5/14/2009 12:43:40 PM   
LadyConstanze


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ienigma777


Most of the time, when I meet someone, and RE talk begins and they attempt to convince me renting is the thing to do.....is when these 'renters' cannot afford to buy...because they just plainly haven't got the moola. It's the envy thing.




I wouldn't say so, a couple of years ago I wouldn't have wanted to buy, mobility was important then and when I lived in NYC, ha ha, buying in Manhattan? Yeah, uhm... I still wouldn't have the moola...

It seriously depends what you want, what you get out of it... For somebody who wants to be mobile and not tied down ever, buying might not be a good idea, though I can't understand why it would be a thing of them not having the moola, when owning is cheaper than renting in a lot of cases (unless of course you take densely populated world capitals but renting also will cost you a fortune there)

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RE: Cheaper to rent or to own a house? - 5/14/2009 1:58:25 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
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From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

Yeah, but do you throw their stray balls back at them? 



Ven, hell no!
I have a 5-gallon pail full of golf balls!
There's a ditch between my property and the golf course.
I put up a sign that says; "Danger!!! Copperhead Snakes!!!" It's funny to see the looks on their faces when they see that sign.
Then, after they play through I just get my rake and voila, another golf ball!
That reminds me, I need to get another 5-gallon pail the next time I go to Lowe's.

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to Vendaval)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Cheaper to rent or to own a house? - 5/14/2009 1:59:40 PM   
Vendaval


Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		So what are you going to do with all those extra golf balls?  Sell them back to the clubhouse? 

_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE


http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 60
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