Love is in the Air...

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TreasureKY -> Love is in the Air... (5/11/2009 10:51:51 AM)
My apologies if I've gotten the song "Love is in the Air" by John Paul Young stuck in anyone's head. Sort of. [;)] After being here over three years, it's something you come to expect... repeated posts asking about love, love's place in a BDSM relationship, and inequities of profession and/or demonstration of love between dominants and submissives. Generally speaking, responses to those "love" posts contain at least one comment asking "just what is love?" and another saying that "actions speak louder than words". While the question of what love is could be debated until the cows come home, I was somewhat struck by some new thoughts on the "actions speak louder than words" idea. I've used it myself... actions do speak louder than words. But when it comes to love, I've decided there's really two separate uses for that phrase... though they are related. The first is the situation wherein, having verbally professed love for someone, it's important that the actions of the professor match his or her profession... in other words, if you tell me that you love me, the way that you treat me needs to prove that out. If you say that you love me, but your treatment of me is hateful, then your actions are speaking louder of disdain than your words that speak of love. This is essentially saying that the genuineness of one person saying that they love another can be proved through evidence of loving behavior (or conversely, proved untrue by the lack of loving behavior). However, the second situation (which so often appears here on CM) is when individuals cannot or will not make a verbal commitment of love toward their partner, for whatever reason. Occasionally someone will offer consolation with the idea that, whether or not love is verbally expressed, loving actions have more meaning anyway. In other words, you can't or won't say that you love me, but as long as your actions toward me can be perceived as loving, then I should be satisfied. Essentially this is saying that as long as one person perceives that the other is treating them in a loving (or caring) manner, that it doesn't really matter if there is any declaration of love. In theory I wouldn't have any real problem with that, except that it places the burden onto the one who is interpreting the actions. But just what is the criteria for determining that a specific action should be attributed to have been motivated by loving feelings, rather than some other type of feeling or motivation? For example... I take care of Firm's home. I pick up and clean after him, trying to make sure everything is in order and good repair. Now in truth, I do this because I love him and I want his life to be comfortable. But it could just as easily be that I do it because it's my home, as well, and I don't like living in a pig sty. It could be that it's my job and what is expected of me. It could be my own sense of perfectionism and pride. Or it could be any combination of the above (which would be true, too). The point is that Firm could perceive my actions as being solely due to love, but they could be entirely motivated by things other than love or care for him. So, the real criteria for determining if actions are "loving" isn't in his interpretation, it's rather in my intention. That's why it's rather important that I communicate just what my intentions are... Which I do when I tell him, outright and without equivocation, "I love you." [:D] But withholding or manipulating communication in order to allow a person to come to a wrong conclusion isn't a new concept. It isn't always done with malevolence in mind, but by some it could be perceived as a dishonest. Sometimes we decide that people would be happier not knowing the truth. lol... It's kinda like the disgruntled husband responding to his wife with, "Love you? I'm with you, aren't I?" (Some who read this are going to understand this concept right away... others will think, "I don't get it. What's wrong with him saying that?", but this post is already way too long.) For any who might be interested, I thought I'd resurrect some information that has previously been shared here that I believe can be of value to anyone seeking a better understanding of relationships, love and communication. Five Love Languages

subtlebutterfly -> RE: Love is in the Air... (5/11/2009 11:20:57 AM)
I DON'T LIKE YOU!!! that damn song has now started to play in my head ..but besides that I like you just fine.....and my brain's too fried to handle the rest of your post sooooo to be continued...maybe[8\|]

chamberqueen -> RE: Love is in the Air... (5/11/2009 11:39:52 AM)
That was an interesting link, and I specifically noticed the section on acts of service as love. I have to admit, my first thought when I saw the title of this post was, "Not another love topic" because there have been so many love threads lately. There are many types of love and just as many ways to show it. Some people are simply not open to expressing their emotions. One person might be completely comfortable in a situation where the Master never proclaims his love but shows appreciation for all that is done, guides the slave, and shows true concern for their happiness. Another will never be satisfied with that but will need to hear the words. To each their own. I know what makes me satisfied. That doesn't make me stronger or weaker than anyone else, or better or worse. I just hate to see someone throw away an otherwise beautiful relationship just because they don't hear the words "I love you".

TreasureKY -> RE: Love is in the Air... (5/11/2009 12:06:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subtlebutterfly I DON'T LIKE YOU!!! that damn song has now started to play in my head ..but besides that I like you just fine.....and my brain's too fried to handle the rest of your post sooooo to be continued...maybe[8\|] lol... That's okay. I guess I got what I deserved with the song. It's stuck in my head now, too! [&:] As for the rest of my post... heck, I don't blame you. I'm not sure I'd respond, either. By the time I'd finished writing it, my own head hurt. [;)]

TreasureKY -> RE: Love is in the Air... (5/11/2009 12:14:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: chamberqueen That was an interesting link, and I specifically noticed the section on acts of service as love. I have to admit, my first thought when I saw the title of this post was, "Not another love topic" because there have been so many love threads lately. There are many types of love and just as many ways to show it. Some people are simply not open to expressing their emotions. One person might be completely comfortable in a situation where the Master never proclaims his love but shows appreciation for all that is done, guides the slave, and shows true concern for their happiness. Another will never be satisfied with that but will need to hear the words. To each their own. I know what makes me satisfied. That doesn't make me stronger or weaker than anyone else, or better or worse. I just hate to see someone throw away an otherwise beautiful relationship just because they don't hear the words "I love you". I have to agree about all the "love" posts. I think the best response to any of them is, find someone who feels the same way and wants the same thing as you. But one way to find out if you can be satisfied with an otherwise beautiful relationship, is to learn what love language your partner speaks, and what love language you hear... and if necessary, work towards being bilingual. [;)]

GeekFreak -> RE: Love is in the Air... (5/11/2009 12:43:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TreasureKY So, the real criteria for determining if actions are "loving" isn't in his interpretation, it's rather in my intention. That's why it's rather important that I communicate just what my intentions are... I believe this is the overall conclusion of your post, and I'd say it's pretty accurate. :) To go a step further...if the intentions are shared, and the receiver can communicate his response back well...then future actions will not only have the good intent behind them, but can be better aimed towards the receiver's preference for such loving gestures (or his/her preference may change once they realize the intent of previous actions).

NuevaVida -> RE: Love is in the Air... (5/11/2009 12:56:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TreasureKY But one way to find out if you can be satisfied with an otherwise beautiful relationship, is to learn what love language your partner speaks, and what love language you hear... and if necessary, work towards being bilingual. [;)] Exactly. Some people need to hear the words and "an otherwise beautiful relationship" is not as wonderful as it can be without them. I want to hear it and feel it, as much as I need to say and demonstrate it in return. I won't give myself to someone who is unable or unwilling to do both.

DesFIP -> RE: Love is in the Air... (5/11/2009 2:22:06 PM)
I think we're in the 5 Love Languages area here. Some people need the verbal, some by doing, some by time spent, and other things I don't remember. Now my ex was only able to express love by doing things. I was worried about running out of gas before I got to the gas station in the morning so he took the can in and brought back a couple of gallons for my car. But he didn't feel any need to spend time with me. He would rather be with friends. Even knowing that he felt like this and his intentions were to be loving didn't married because I need time and attention and verbal to feel loved. We simply didn't match.

CatdeMedici -> RE: Love is in the Air... (5/11/2009 5:05:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subtlebutterfly I DON'T LIKE YOU!!! that damn song has now started to play in my head ..but besides that I like you just fine.....and my brain's too fried to handle the rest of your post sooooo to be continued...maybe[8\|] Oh thank you, finally I got rid of "Open a New Window"... nope I don't buy the whole, "I'm with ya aren't I" routine, because too many people are too lazy to end a bad relationship or too afraid of the demise of their financial life style. Though I don't buy the whole ownership equates to love, IF there was love, it better be stated clearly in words of 3-4 syllables as well a shown in dynamically loving ways.

LadyHibiscus -> RE: Love is in the Air... (5/11/2009 5:25:18 PM)
A lady I have a great deal of respect for is in a relationship with a dominant who does not love her, and never will. She loves him madly, of course. Is she happy and fulfilled? She says she is, and certainly seems to be. Her affect on HIM has been tremendous! No one has ever loved me in anything other than a friendly way, so I guess I shouldn't feel sorry for her, but I do. Who else is out there who will not only appreciate her fine qualities but offer her devotion and love as well? From the outside looking in, it seems like she is being cheated. But, he is very honest, and she understands---they are on the same page, and I think that is an improvement over uncertainty. {garbled words, long day at wrrrrk}

TreasureKY -> RE: Love is in the Air... (5/11/2009 5:34:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GeekFreak I believe this is the overall conclusion of your post, and I'd say it's pretty accurate. :) Thank you. [:D] And yes, I agree that good communications will promote further good communication. quote: ORIGINAL: NuevaVida Exactly. Some people need to hear the words and "an otherwise beautiful relationship" is not as wonderful as it can be without them. I want to hear it and feel it, as much as I need to say and demonstrate it in return. I won't give myself to someone who is unable or unwilling to do both. I'm with you on this, NuevaVida. Intellectually I can understand that some people don't want or need love in their relationships... though I don't really understand it on an emotional level. quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP ... Even knowing that he felt like this and his intentions were to be loving didn't married because I need time and attention and verbal to feel loved. We simply didn't match. It's not surprising that people have different ways of perceiving and displaying love. What is surprising is when someone who professes to love, understands but refuses to speak a language that their beloved can understand. quote: ORIGINAL: CatdeMedici ... nope I don't buy the whole, "I'm with ya aren't I" routine, because too many people are too lazy to end a bad relationship or too afraid of the demise of their financial life style. Yay! Someone understood my ramblings. [:D] quote: ORIGINAL: CatdeMedici ... Though I don't buy the whole ownership equates to love, IF there was love, it better be stated clearly in words of 3-4 syllables as well a shown in dynamically loving ways. I whole-heartedly agree with you. That's why I have always been wary of any dominant who tries to placate a love-desiring submissive with allusions that his (or her) mere ownership should be proof of their "emotional attachment" (carefully phrased to avoid the "L" word). I see that as emotional manipulation.

NuevaVida -> RE: Love is in the Air... (5/11/2009 5:44:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TreasureKY Intellectually I can understand that some people don't want or need love in their relationships... though I don't really understand it on an emotional level. Hey Treasure, I can't speak for everyone on this, but in my past I could accept not being loved. That was because I honestly didn't think there was much to me to love. So I was happy to love, but did not expect it in return. I think differently now, though. [;)]

DavanKael -> RE: Love is in the Air... (5/11/2009 7:41:52 PM)
Aaaack, that song! :> I certainly think you thought/typed out a rather good analysis of love and loving acts related to intent. Love is a knowing. Davan

SailingBum -> RE: Love is in the Air... (5/11/2009 9:21:21 PM)
my computer wont play sappy lame ass love songs.... my last CPU got thrown out a window for playing SAP BadOne

DesFIP -> RE: Love is in the Air... (5/12/2009 4:42:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TreasureKY It's not surprising that people have different ways of perceiving and displaying love. What is surprising is when someone who professes to love, understands but refuses to speak a language that their beloved can understand. I don't think it's a deliberate refusal to speak the other person's language but that it simply doesn't come naturally to them. An example of incompatibility if you will. Should I have demanded he somehow change so that he preferred to spend free time with me and not play ball with his friends? Should he have demanded that I not want him to spend his free time with me? Neither way works because we were too different.

TreasureKY -> RE: Love is in the Air... (5/12/2009 5:41:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP quote: ORIGINAL: TreasureKY It's not surprising that people have different ways of perceiving and displaying love. What is surprising is when someone who professes to love, understands but refuses to speak a language that their beloved can understand. I don't think it's a deliberate refusal to speak the other person's language but that it simply doesn't come naturally to them. An example of incompatibility if you will. Should I have demanded he somehow change so that he preferred to spend free time with me and not play ball with his friends? Should he have demanded that I not want him to spend his free time with me? Neither way works because we were too different. I do think you are correct that it's incompatibility and a lose/lose situation. But I also know that when I love someone, if I'm aware of something that they want or prefer (especially if it's something that is important to them)... even if it's something I'm not crazy about, or is difficult or not my natural inclination... I typically will go out of my way to try to satisfy their desires. I love them and want them to be happy. Perhaps I'm wrong in feeling this way, but I have a hard time believing that someone who really loves me wouldn't, at least occasionally, feel a similar need to satisfy my desires. Of course, if demands are made upon of me... if I come to feel my nature is consistently being taken for granted and there is never any reciprocal acknowledgment, I will become resentful. But by that time any feelings of ardor will have substantially cooled anyway. To me, this would be a classic example of the first situation described above... where actions aren't proving the words. As I'm not an emotional masochist and have no desire to wallow in unrequited love, I will let go of that love out of self-preservation. lol... So yeah, I'm not a real big believer in unconditional love.

marie2 -> RE: Love is in the Air... (5/12/2009 5:56:56 AM)
GR Yes, I agree actions do speak louder than words in many contexts. But if I love someone, I love them whether or not there is an action I can take to "show" them that love. I'm not so sure I agree with the 5 languages thing....Yes there may be more than one way to show loving gestures....heck there are probably an infinite number of actions that can be taken to express love. But when love is felt, it's felt in one "language". In other words when you feel loved, you don't wonder what the other person meant when they expressed it. I don't see love as something to be interpreted via reason and logic. I see love as something you either feel or you don't. Not sure what example to try and use here, so maybe this is lame, but people who have owned pets can probably relate to this. How does your pet know you love it and how do you know it loves you? Cats and dogs don't know what humans mean when they say the words "I love you". What about these experiments that have been done where people's blood pressure and stress levels have gone down when in the presense of their pet. That's love happening. Yet neither pet or human can "prove" that love with words or actions...the only "language" you have between human and animal is "feelings". Ok we're humans and not animals, but still, we give too much creedance to logic and reason; we'll sit there and try to parse through someone's words and gestures trying to figure out how they meant something, instead of paying attention to the feelings and emotions that are speaking to us in unmistakable terms. Do I feel loved? How long does it take to come up with a yes or a no?

TreasureKY -> RE: Love is in the Air... (5/12/2009 9:00:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: marie2 ... I'm not so sure I agree with the 5 languages thing....Yes there may be more than one way to show loving gestures....heck there are probably an infinite number of actions that can be taken to express love. But when love is felt, it's felt in one "language". In other words when you feel loved, you don't wonder what the other person meant when they expressed it. I don't see love as something to be interpreted via reason and logic. I see love as something you either feel or you don't. ... Ok we're humans and not animals, but still, we give too much creedance to logic and reason; we'll sit there and try to parse through someone's words and gestures trying to figure out how they meant something, instead of paying attention to the feelings and emotions that are speaking to us in unmistakable terms. Do I feel loved? How long does it take to come up with a yes or a no? But I think you might misunderstand the Five Languages concept. It doesn't discount feelings... in fact it emphasizes them and looks at why we feel what we feel. When you consider the different languages that people use, it makes it easy to understand why I might feel positive about a certain behavior, but another person might not respond at all to the very same behavior. For example, Celeste mentioned that her ex would always make sure she had gas in her car. It sounds like his "love language" when speaking was one that focused on service... selflessly doing things behind the scenes to make Celeste's life easier and show that he loved her. But Celeste explained that her "love language" when hearing involved being verbally assured by and having quality time spent with her ex. It isn't that she couldn't recognize logically that her ex was demonstrating his love, but emotionally, she didn't feel loved that way. For whatever reason that makes up Celeste's emotional state, his actions didn't trigger feelings of love for her. We all have different things that make us feel loved. In the same way, we also have different ways of expressing our love for others. Of the five languages identified, we typically all have a mix of them... but usually in different proportions, and not necessarily in the same way between feeling and expressing love. quote: ORIGINAL: marie2 Not sure what example to try and use here, so maybe this is lame, but people who have owned pets can probably relate to this. How does your pet know you love it and how do you know it loves you? Cats and dogs don't know what humans mean when they say the words "I love you". What about these experiments that have been done where people's blood pressure and stress levels have gone down when in the presense of their pet. That's love happening. Yet neither pet or human can "prove" that love with words or actions...the only "language" you have between human and animal is "feelings". With regard to the issue of cats and dogs that you mention, I don't think that I agree with you. Yes, we can and do feel and express love with our pets, but I do think there's much more language in there than you are recognizing. Think of it this way... Would you be feeling much love from your pet if they were disobedient all the time? If they barked and growled and snarled at you? If they wouldn't come close to you or let you touch them? I doubt seriously that anyone's blood pressure would go down with a pet who behaved like that. In the same respect, I doubt your pet would feel love from you if you were to treat it badly or even with indifference... if you failed to feed them or care for them or show them affection. They may not understand your words, but I'd bet their feelings are influenced by how you say what you say. "I love you" spoken in soothing tones is going to engender positive feelings far more than screaming it at them. So yes, while there isn't a common spoken language between humans and animals, there is still language.

MusicalBoredom -> RE: Love is in the Air... (5/12/2009 9:40:55 AM)
I was thinking "Love Stinks" but I'm in a rather foul mood at the moment. I'm glad when others are in a good mood though.

marie2 -> RE: Love is in the Air... (5/12/2009 9:50:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TreasureKY With regard to the issue of cats and dogs that you mention, I don't think that I agree with you. Yes, we can and do feel and express love with our pets, but I do think there's much more language in there than you are recognizing. Think of it this way... Would you be feeling much love from your pet if they were disobedient all the time? Yes. I had a cat for many years. They don't obey anything. quote: If they barked and growled and snarled at you? If they wouldn't come close to you or let you touch them? I'm not saying that I would be inclined to love any animal, just like we're not inclined to love any person. I'm saying that if and when I do love, the object of my love knows it (feels it) regardless of the words spoken or whether or not I pet it that day (if it's an animal) or make it a cup of coffee or whatever (if it's a person). quote: I doubt seriously that anyone's blood pressure would go down with a pet who behaved like that. If my pet or a person that I loved began behaving in ways that I didn't find conducive to my happiness and serenity, I may deem that the person isn't compatible with me, but that doesn't mean I no longer love the person. For instance, you can still feel love for a person and say to them "We're just not right together anymore", and if you truly do love that person, they will feel it regardless of whether or not you want to be with them. What about adult children of abuse, many of them will tell you that they loved their parents regardless of what they suffered, or even that they always knew mom loved them regardless of how she treated them. How do we explain this? quote: In the same respect, I doubt your pet would feel love from you if you were to treat it badly or even with indifference... if you failed to feed them or care for them or show them affection. I'm not completely sure about that. But it's a good point. I'm going to guess that a dog is going to love you as it starves to death, since it really doesn't understand the logic that being fed equals care, and it doesn't understand if you're neglecting to feed it because you don't care or becuase you can't afford food. This was my point actually. Gestures, in and of themselves, don't necessarily indicate love, therefore they can't actually cause things to feel love just by performing them. How does a child feel love? You can make dinner for someone and clothe someone and just be going through the motions. Hell, you can even hug someone or show something affection without feeling love for it/him/her. What causes the subject to feel love ( or not feel love) when any gesture/action/words under the sun can be done/said with or without love behind it?

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