RE: Privacy (Full Version)

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PanthersMom -> RE: Privacy (5/12/2009 2:18:25 PM)

shouldn't this be part of the discussion at the start of the relationship, how comfortable each would be with public knowledge of their private lives?  personally i don't give a damn what happens in the privacy of the bedroom as long as it's one more consenting adults doing it.  to each their own.

PM



lovingpet -> RE: Privacy (5/12/2009 2:25:33 PM)

I don't really think what I am talking about involves not being active and "out" in the context of lifestyle.  I am talking about family, vanilla friends, at work and such.  I think we sometimes impose upon each other and overstep bounds we would not want overstepped for ourselves.  To me, there is a whole other delegation of people who have rights too when it comes to having to be made aware of lifestyle choices that I have made.  It is that people have the right NOT to know and to NOT have to have it pushed on them.  I don't consider this a submissive stance, but one of courtesy to others.  I think there are also issues of well being.  Anyone who wants to make very deep and serious trouble in some very important aspects of my life does not care about me at all.

I have no problem with who and what I am.  If ever I had to address this with a family member, friend, or coworker/boss, I could do it and I would be quite clear that I don't want to hear the complaining after the fact.  I know there would be fallout, but it is happening because it needed to happen.  I don't think putting everyone through this kind of thing needs to occur for frivolous reasons.

I agree it CAN be a compatability issue.  Most of the time I would guess that it is.  I don't think this is always the case and that is where my question comes in.  I am not asking how to deal with the situation should it arise.  If one can do the basic work of communication, it should be fairly simple to solve.  I am wondering how it comes to be that one person's boundaries are occassionally trumped in this area.  The couple I am thinking about have about equal levels of private and public exposure including which areas are which.  However, the submissive is expected frequently to be placed in positions that threatens those private areas.  One instances was being rather heavily marked up a few days before a children's pool party (not a whole lot of clothing options there since she had to be in the pool with the kiddos as per prior arrangements).  Things were worked out, but I couldn't help but thinking that it was rather strange that she would be placed in such a position in the first place given the fact that nearly every aspect of her private area were being violated by that.

Most of us can manage to work around such things if we choose, but why on earth does it seem it happens so often? What are the criteria for deciding exact same boundaries for one are less important than for the other?  I don't get it.  Why is so much explanation necessary when it has been discussed up front and both are in agreement and prioritize certain levels of privacy? 

Thanks for all the input.  I hope I have clarified the point some.

lovingpet




MasteRick2008 -> RE: Privacy (5/12/2009 2:27:39 PM)

He was just being a jerk. If you want to keep things private you have the right to do so. I dont think that it necessary to flaunt our lives in front of other people.  My sub wears a nice small  twisted leather collar in public that looks like a average necklace. She has a regular collar to wear when we are in private.



LadyPact -> RE: Privacy (5/12/2009 2:42:09 PM)

Thanks for the clarifications to both lovingpet and Jeff.  I may have a better response now.

I'm out to darn near everyone.  The one exception to this in My Father.  The reason for that is because I actually believe that it would do him more harm than good.

In clip's case, he's out to an extent.  Friends and family yes, occupation-wise, no.  This actually falls under the famous 'don't ask, don't tell' thing.  To make a long story short, marks that I put on him during certain times of the year can't be visible when wearing his summer PT uniform, which basically looks like a t-shirt and a pair of shorts.  No caning of the legs and such during the warmer months.  (Which is ok, since that way the bruises show up so much nicer when it's back to winter PT's.)

I think what you're also touching on is not inflicting My kink onto someone else.  Yes, I'm a firm believer in this.  People do have the right not to be exposed if they don't want to.  Usually, in the case of family and friends, it's easy enough to do this on a case by case basis when it comes to those people who are involved in our lives.  The general public, we don't often have the opportunity to ask what is acceptable to them and what isn't.  Kind of the reason why I'm happy to walk clip on his collar and leash at an event, but I wouldn't do it down main street.



lovingpet -> RE: Privacy (5/12/2009 2:47:27 PM)

Yes, this is much closer to what I was asking.  I do public play, like some level of D/s interaction occuring during otherwise vanilla situations, but there are times when it just is too damaging to really work.  It seems like most of the time it is just a no brainer thing that slips up and gets a whole hornet's nest stirred up.  Kind of funny actually if it weren't for the implications. 

lovingpet



YourhandMyAss -> RE: Privacy (5/12/2009 2:53:22 PM)

I remember one time a dom I was dating had for years tried to get me to call him Master and wasn't really sucessful with it, and when we broke up and got back together again, he didn't want a certain woman in chat to know we were back together again, because she was nosy and would meddle in his business, and one day I called him Master in the chat rooms and he was all like I said only call me that in private, to which I said you can't drill it in my head to always call you Master and then not expect it to slip out online in chat.
quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingpet

Yes, this is much closer to what I was asking.  I do public play, like some level of D/s interaction occuring during otherwise vanilla situations, but there are times when it just is too damaging to really work.  It seems like most of the time it is just a no brainer thing that slips up and gets a whole hornet's nest stirred up.  Kind of funny actually if it weren't for the implications. 

lovingpet



DesFIP -> RE: Privacy (5/12/2009 2:56:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingpet

I am wondering how it comes to be that one person's boundaries are occassionally trumped in this area.  The couple I am thinking about have about equal levels of private and public exposure including which areas are which.  However, the submissive is expected frequently to be placed in positions that threatens those private areas.  One instances was being rather heavily marked up a few days before a children's pool party (not a whole lot of clothing options there since she had to be in the pool with the kiddos as per prior arrangements).  Things were worked out, but I couldn't help but thinking that it was rather strange that she would be placed in such a position in the first place given the fact that nearly every aspect of her private area were being violated by that.


lovingpet


So they agreed he wouldn't out her to her children, or to people who she isn't close enough to talk about her sex life with. And then he deliberately broke his word.

That's the definition of someone who lies in my book. Who gets off on harming others. Sociopath types. The question here is why she permits it? Why she stays with someone who lies and breaks his word on a regular basis, someone who can't be trusted? If you're that close friends, next time she complains about what he's done, ask her why she accepts it? Why doesn't she have healthier boundaries?



lovingpet -> RE: Privacy (5/12/2009 3:08:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingpet

I am wondering how it comes to be that one person's boundaries are occassionally trumped in this area.  The couple I am thinking about have about equal levels of private and public exposure including which areas are which.  However, the submissive is expected frequently to be placed in positions that threatens those private areas.  One instances was being rather heavily marked up a few days before a children's pool party (not a whole lot of clothing options there since she had to be in the pool with the kiddos as per prior arrangements).  Things were worked out, but I couldn't help but thinking that it was rather strange that she would be placed in such a position in the first place given the fact that nearly every aspect of her private area were being violated by that.

*bolded for emphasis for this particular response*

lovingpet


So they agreed he wouldn't out her to her children, or to people who she isn't close enough to talk about her sex life with. And then he deliberately broke his word.

That's the definition of someone who lies in my book. Who gets off on harming others. Sociopath types. The question here is why she permits it? Why she stays with someone who lies and breaks his word on a regular basis, someone who can't be trusted? If you're that close friends, next time she complains about what he's done, ask her why she accepts it? Why doesn't she have healthier boundaries?


They resolved the issue and he did not go forward with what he had planned, but it seemed to take so much convincing.  Further, it was just odd that it even came up in the first place given both their positions on those issues.  I think he just wasn't thinking the whole thing through and got tunnel visioned somehow.  It left her in a very ackward spot, but they were able to handle it like mature adults.   I would agree HAD he went forward anyway AND did so regularly that she had a big problem on her hands and would advise her of the matter.  I appreciate the concern, however.

lovingpet 



SylvereApLeanan -> RE: Privacy (5/12/2009 3:11:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze
I'd even go a step further with that, why does a collar have to look like a collar? A nice silver or gold chain can be just as symbolic but less "in your face" and can be worn everywhere. What do 2 people need a collar for? To show off or because it has a meaning for them?


This is why I love to use chainmail or "eternity collar" styles.  With the right pattern for the chainmail weave and some beads, no one would ever know the collar wasn't just a necklace.  Only the people involved would be aware of its significance.  In the case of an eternity collar, just add one of those slide pendants and, voila!, instant fashion accessory.



AlexandraLynch -> RE: Privacy (5/12/2009 4:53:05 PM)

There's a lot of stuff that isn't anyone else's business.  I wear a pentacle, and have some tattoos, but if I'm in a situation where you can see the tattoos, we're probably already cool with my paganism. I will tell people that it is the equivalent of a Christian wearing a cross, if they ask what it is, and I'll give a brief overview, heavy on the "we don't sacrifice babies or have orgies during ritual" points, but I don't think the cashier at the grocery store really needs to be all up in my relationship with the gods. And I don't think that she needs to be all up in my personal relationships and sex life, either. I'll readily admit to BDSM if directly asked, just as I'll admit to paganism if directly asked. I just don't feel that most of the time we need to bring that up in mundane vanilla transactions and encounters.

And it is very DEFINITELY neither my mother's or my offspring's business what I do with my non-custodial weekends, thank you very much.



catize -> RE: Privacy (5/12/2009 7:18:04 PM)

I don’t share much of anything about my life with anyone.  My friends sometimes give me grief, in a teasing way, because of it. I’m a good listener and I express my friendship with good deeds.  They also know that they can tell me stuff and I will not repeat it.  I frustrate the gossipers; I just give them my famous stare and remain silent.
So, of course I am not ‘out’ regarding my D/s relationships.  The topic of S+M came up at lunch one day.  The consensus was very negative and opinions were that it is always wrong.  I kept my counsel because I have to work with these people Monday through Friday.  Giving my opinion would not have changed their minds about sadomasochism, but it probably would have altered their attitude toward me.  For the record, if one of them had asked me directly what I thought I may have offered a pro argument.  But no one did and the conversation swirled around me while I concentrated on my lunch. 
On the other hand, R. keeps his toys displayed on a table top.  His friends know I spend weekends there so I’m pretty sure they have a clue; but they have known about his interests for years and since they have no issues with him, I don’t worry about it.    
I would love to attend an event like Spanksgiving in St. Louis sometime if the opportunity ever arose.  But I certainly would not tell my friends or family where I was that weekend.  I enjoy a nice, quiet, private life and that would be brought to an end if I had to explain and convince and defend! 



CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Privacy (5/13/2009 6:28:19 AM)

quote:

Original: lovingpet

However, the submissive is expected frequently to be placed in positions that threatens those private areas. One instances was being rather heavily marked up a few days before a children's pool party (not a whole lot of clothing options there since she had to be in the pool with the kiddos as per prior arrangements). Things were worked out, but I couldn't help but thinking that it was rather strange that she would be placed in such a position in the first place given the fact that nearly every aspect of her private area were being violated by that.


See, I have to wonder about this kind of thing, and whether it is -intentional- on the D's part, or whether these situations were accidental lapses due to, perhaps, inexperience. I've had new toys mark someone in ways that I didn't plan on -- they shouldn't have left very visible marks, according to the description, but when I got it home and actually used it on the person I got it for, it marked hir significantly. I've had one other situation where a familiar toy that never left a mark started bruising one of my servants. In the first case, it took us some experimenting to figure out how to get the toy to not leave marks, but if xhe'd have had something important going on that first time, there would have been no getting around the fact that I'd marked hir. In the second case, the servant in question had developed anemia secondary to some health changes that were still so subtle that we hadn't really noticed a problem yet... and the bruises were the first really -visible- clue that there was something really -wrong-... and it prompted us to get hir in for a medical exam and treatment, which, according to the doctor, if xhe hadn't had might have resulted in congestive heart failure or any of several other serious issues.

When we see things like this, it is our first inclination to be outraged, but sometimes, the real situation under the surface is nothing like what we've imagined... and even the situation as it is presented by one of the participants may not always be able to be taken just at face value.

Yes, if this D-type person is -intentionally- violating the agreed-on parameters of the relationship, this is a big issue -- but it is possible that the s-type person is also annoyed by the perceived embarrassment and, in her irritation, is taking something that may be an innocent mistake and turning it into a huge issue. The only other thing I have to say is that if there are a _lot_ of "innocent mistakes", it may be time for this D-type to consider getting hirself a mentor, so that the D-type person doesn't damage the s-type person in question irreparably while learning how things work.

Just a few thoughts,
Dame Calla



lovingpet -> RE: Privacy (5/13/2009 11:15:56 AM)

In this case, it was just a negotiation of sorts and he never went through with it.  She just had her hands full convincing him that she really did need to have this level of privacy.  We all make mistakes and may leave a stray mark now and again, but this was going to be intentional as part of post scene humiliation.  It was just to far given her circumstances.  That is why I took issue at all.  I just had to wonder what I would do and it became a hot point for discussion with my partner.  I am not much for saying the word no in my relationships and would really have a hard time with this on so many levels myself. 

I prefer some level of privacy both a comfort zone and out of some level of necessity.  I have chosen who I have partly because that is considered reasonable and is respected.  I just can't quite grasp what happens in situations where these matters get overlooked in the rush of fantasy and planning.  It just seems like such a big thing to consider that I wonder how it is it gets lost in the mix so many times.

lovingpet



IronBear -> RE: Privacy (5/13/2009 5:44:15 PM)

FR

On a personal aspect I will tell you precisely what I want you to know. Some other things you might find out from other sources but not everything. I value my privacy and aye by nature I am very secretive. Like most people I am close to I am bound by oaths of secrecy, the official secrets act, a good sense of self preservation and common decency which includes protecting my family. There is no way known will I disclose personal things about friends or those under my care or even acknowledge the truth if some one is probing. Those probing too hard prompts me to open a dossier on that person and start digging dirt just incase I need to shut them down.  Mostly I work on the basis of a live and let live system because everybody has the right to life their life as they choose provided they are not impacting negatively on the lives of me and mine or damaging the area where I live..



stella41b -> RE: Privacy (5/13/2009 10:02:42 PM)

I'm out and whilst this being out is in some places public I'm very conscious of boundaries as (paradoxically) I'm also a very private person. I favour the 'accepted fact' strategy of revealing information and generally tend to treat everyone and accept information at face value.

I'm fortunate in that being an indigo and good with words I am pretty good at reading people and discovering or 'feeling out' their intentions and I can pick up on lots of things through what is expressed and what isn't expressed through words. However I'm nowhere near any model of perfection and can be deceived or tricked, but it's rare. I'm also not above lying and deception if it's to protect someone close to me or their interests, and I'm quite good at 'inadmissible evidence'.



Calandra -> RE: Privacy (5/14/2009 1:02:00 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527
We are actually out to some of our family and friends and we're not shy about going to munches and whatnot. So for those that won't get their undies in a bundle over it, Carol is fine talking about it. But in situations in which she imagines someone may be offended, then she doesn't want to impose. It took me a while to wrap my head around her reasoning. I'm pointing it out here only because it's an example of a healthy (if somewhat overly meek in my opinion) reason not to out yourself in certain circumstances.


I can completely understand Carol's thinking. My household is "out and proud", and we have no problem expressing our power exchange around family, friends, even local clubs and bars... HOWEVER, we tone things down considerably if we are at a restaurant for Sunday dinner and the place is filled with UM's or older generation - they simply do not understand our life and would misinterpret it completely. My boy wore a narrow leather collar for years. It was fairly "gothy" and people just assumed it was a fashion choice. Every so often, someone would blurt "hey dude are you wearing a collar?" and I had instructed him to reply with "do you really want the answer to that question?" If they said yes, all bets were off and they could ask anything they wanted within reason. Often though, they would realize they might not really want to know, and would just back off. The ABILITY to consent is paramount to us.



janiebelle -> RE: Privacy (5/14/2009 4:38:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Calandra

 Every so often, someone would blurt "hey dude are you wearing a collar?" and I had instructed him to reply with "do you really want the answer to that question?" If they said yes, all bets were off and they could ask anything they wanted within reason.

Love it!  Very clever. [;)]
j



CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Privacy (5/14/2009 6:42:21 AM)

quote:

Original: Calandra

...reply with "do you really want the answer to that question?"


Interestingly, this is pretty much the method I use for managing questions about my 'outness' as well (along with those annoying questions where people -really- just want to be validated in their decision to do something idiotic or buy something they don't need like "Does this make me look faaaat?" and "Do you think doing this is stupid?"). If folks ask, I give them the chance to decide whether they -really- want that much information. Surprisingly to me, a little more than half actually say "yes". I figured more folks would chicken out if they knew the answer had the potential to twist their little brains.

Dame Calla



IronBear -> RE: Privacy (5/14/2009 7:02:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan

This is why I love to use chainmail or "eternity collar" styles.  With the right pattern for the chainmail weave and some beads, no one would ever know the collar wasn't just a necklace.  Only the people involved would be aware of its significance.  In the case of an eternity collar, just add one of those slide pendants and, voila!, instant fashion accessory.


Chain maile or more correctly maile collars are great. I have made them in the past. I have seen a maile shirt made with the words "I Love You" embedded in the front by making the letters out of anodised (black) links whilst the rerst were of stainless steel. Links can be of iron, steel , aluminium, anodised, copoper, brass or bronze. If you get the right gauge and small size it is on the cards you can have almost what ever decorations (if it can be done with beads it can be done in chain links), you choose to have and can be an interesting piece of neck ware for social outings.



lovingpet -> RE: Privacy (5/14/2009 7:14:23 AM)

I have used that question quite a bit as well about many things.  It works well and it takes the onous off of me when they get an answer they don't like.  I warned them after all!  LOL

It is this ability to consent that is part of my concern as well.  The cashier at Walmart or my minister's wife really don't need to have to face my flagrant, yet intimate life choices.  Forcing that upon them seems unfair.  Family and friends may have more of a "need to know" than the general public, but I just don't want them to feel ackward or upset.  I realize I am not responsible for how they choose to feel, but at the same time I kind of am if I am placing it upon them when they didn't want or need to know.  I think they could deal more with me liking rough, kinky sex than the thought that I may be abused at home.  If at all possible, I think they just would prefer to not have to be exposed to it.

It is important to me to be respectful of others' boundaries.  Unfortunately, they don't necessarily reciporcate.  Further, after getting what they were after, I have no control on how they choose to view their discovery.  I just find it something I cannot do intentionally to place another under such scrutiny for no other reason than  my own passions.  Again, unfortunately, that may not always be reciporcated and I am left with what to do.  I have not had this issue and I really don't know what I would do if I did. 

Sorry guys!  Still not getting my mind around the motivation behind this particular violation despite it being somewhat prevalent.  All your input has been great!  We seem to be on the same page, which in my opinion, is good.  It still leaves my question unresolved though. 

lovingpet



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