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TreasureKY -> RE: I found It! I found it!! Where healthcare is a "Right" in the US... (5/14/2009 8:04:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

"I just happen to see a poor track record on the part of the US government in managing anything. "

Ask any vet if they want to opt out of the VA.

Ask anyone on Medicare if they want to opt out.


Ummm... yeah.  At least the people I know would.  They only use it because it's free to them (or nearly) and/or because they don't have a choice.   They like the price, but the service and red tape sucks.   That's my point. 



FirmhandKY -> RE: I found It! I found it!! Where healthcare is a "Right" in the US... (5/14/2009 8:05:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
Which explains why he posts so much in a venue that has people who regularly practice polygamy, beating people for fun, fake kidnapping for fun, and other socially acceptable methods of sexual and personal gratification ?



You've noticed that too? You mean it's not just me? I was beginning to think I was paranoid or something. It just seems like for some inexplicable reason, there are an unusally large number of perverts hanging around this place. It's very strange.


[sm=biggrin.gif][sm=biggrin.gif]

Firm



MzMia -> RE: I found It! I found it!! Where healthcare is a "Right" in the US... (5/14/2009 8:10:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

The numbers in your post are what scare me.
I am not prepared to pay almost 40% of my salary in taxes to subsidize a
government run health plan, UNLESS it seems like a system I can believe in.
 


Hi Mia

In France, the funding mentioned above doesn't just go to healthcare. It goes to the retirement fund, state child support (imagine that!), maternity leave, and a host of other things. There is a very substantial social safety net over there (I know that many people find that horrifying lol). Also, let's not forget that the average French salary is substantially higher than its American counterpart.

http://securitesociale.antisearch.net/cgi-bin/findall?KEYWORDS=maternite&C=153&X=


Thank you kittin, this information takes it to a new level of understanding.
It seems like with our failing Social Security System that maybe Americans will have
to consider taking out the 40% and subsidizing Health Care, Social Security and similar programs
that you mentioned!
Now, it is REALLY getting interesting!



philosophy -> RE: I found It! I found it!! Where healthcare is a "Right" in the US... (5/14/2009 8:12:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

The numbers in your post are what scare me.
I am not prepared to pay almost 40% of my salary in taxes to subsidize a
government run health plan, UNLESS it seems like a system I can believe in.
 


Hi Mia

In France, the funding mentioned above doesn't just go to healthcare. It goes to the retirement fund, state child support (imagine that!), maternity leave, and a host of other things. There is a very substantial social safety net over there (I know that many people find that horrifying lol). Also, let's not forget that the average French salary is substantially higher than its American counterpart.

http://securitesociale.antisearch.net/cgi-bin/findall?KEYWORDS=maternite&C=153&X=


Thank you kittin, this information takes it to a new level of understanding.
It seems like with our failing Social Security System that maybe Americans will have
to consider taking out the 40% and subsidizing Health Care, Social Security and similar programs
that you mentioned!
Now, it is REALLY getting interesting!



...i think you'd run into the feeling shown by a number on these fora. Some people simply do not trust the US government to get things right. Which begs a thread derailing question........



MzMia -> RE: I found It! I found it!! Where healthcare is a "Right" in the US... (5/14/2009 8:18:35 PM)

Actually, Philosophy....I can see easily at least 2-4 different topics for threads here.
[;)]

As much as I feel we NEED a National Health Care plan, most people can understand those of
us that are real leery of a government run program.
 
Thinking about the government taking 40% of my salary, leaving me jack shit to live off, and then creating some sort of horrific, mismanaged health care system and also screwing up Social Security and other social programs, is the sort of thing that could create nightmares.
 
The need is there, we can agree on that.
But let's do it right, which in my mind, means taking the time to create a well planned
system, or network of social systems.



TreasureKY -> RE: I found It! I found it!! Where healthcare is a "Right" in the US... (5/14/2009 8:18:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

The numbers in your post are what scare me.
I am not prepared to pay almost 40% of my salary in taxes to subsidize a
government run health plan, UNLESS it seems like a system I can believe in.
 


Hi Mia

In France, the funding mentioned above doesn't just go to healthcare. It goes to the retirement fund, state child support (imagine that!), maternity leave, and a host of other things. There is a very substantial social safety net over there (I know that many people find that horrifying lol). Also, let's not forget that the average French salary is substantially higher than its American counterpart.

http://securitesociale.antisearch.net/cgi-bin/findall?KEYWORDS=maternite&C=153&X=


Somehow I doubt that US employers will be able to absorb the increased taxes to them PLUS be able to increase workers' salaries.  At least not without having to have more layoffs. 

Gee... wouldn't that be great?

I also doubt that we'd see any kind of decrease to our existing social security tax with the institution of a healthcare tax.  Especially since the social security system is already going bankrupt. 

With regard to the additional benefits provided by the CSG (aside from retirement)... I suppose I'm one of those who'd be labeled selfish.  I think people should be responsible for their own decision to have children.



kittinSol -> RE: I found It! I found it!! Where healthcare is a "Right" in the US... (5/14/2009 8:20:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
...i think you'd run into the feeling shown by a number on these fora. Some people simply do not trust the US government to get things right. Which begs a thread derailing question........


They trust the U.S. government to defend the country and to take care of the nukes - it's really strange that they don't trust it with a more peaceful endeavour [8|] .



Vendaval -> RE: I found It! I found it!! Where healthcare is a "Right" in the US... (5/14/2009 8:26:49 PM)

 
That is the big question and much of the answer has to do with the AMA and lobbyists in Washington D.C.


quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
The French system which we've discussed in depth is run by a central government. The Canadian one is administered provincially, but there are basic standards set federally. The UK system is centralised. All these systems do work. So what is the special quality of the US government which means it can't do the same job?



TreasureKY -> RE: I found It! I found it!! Where healthcare is a "Right" in the US... (5/14/2009 8:28:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

Thank you kittin, this information takes it to a new level of understanding.


lol... Perhaps for you.  My French is a bit rusty.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

It seems like with our failing Social Security System that maybe Americans will have
to consider taking out the 40% and subsidizing Health Care, Social Security and similar programs
that you mentioned!


I can understand your feelings on this, but I'd just as soon set aside my own 40% and pay for my healthcare and retirement without government assistance.  I'd certainly be able to make much larger contributions to charity, as well.



TreasureKY -> RE: I found It! I found it!! Where healthcare is a "Right" in the US... (5/14/2009 8:34:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
...i think you'd run into the feeling shown by a number on these fora. Some people simply do not trust the US government to get things right. Which begs a thread derailing question........


They trust the U.S. government to defend the country and to take care of the nukes - it's really strange that they don't trust it with a more peaceful endeavour [8|] .


It's not so hard to understand.

I trust my laundry with my clothes.  I trust my mechanic with my auto.  I trust my landscaper with my yard... my dentist with my teeth... my banker with my money... my doctor with my health... and my Federal government with my national security.

But I certainly wouldn't consider all of those as interchangeable.



MzMia -> RE: I found It! I found it!! Where healthcare is a "Right" in the US... (5/14/2009 8:38:01 PM)

I think we agree that neither of us want a badly run/mismanaged National Health Care System.
 
Are you opposed to any sort of National Health Care System/Coverage?

I think we need to provide at least basic and emergency coverage for everyone.

We are going to pay one way or another in the long run.



Owner59 -> RE: I found It! I found it!! Where healthcare is a "Right" in the US... (5/14/2009 8:38:13 PM)

It`s a  philosophy, that the government is the problem.

That`s why they were so happy with bush.He more than fulfilled those low expectation, of poor performance and waste.

Trouble is,bush also demonstrated in the most damaging ways possible that private business is no more competent that government is.

What Treasure is trying to say, is that she`d much rather prefer her hospital stay be cut short by a for-profit insurance bureaucrat(who`s bonus depends on the number of claims denied) than by a government bureaucrat.



MzMia -> RE: I found It! I found it!! Where healthcare is a "Right" in the US... (5/14/2009 8:44:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

It`s a  philosophy, that the government is the problem.

That`s why they were so happy with bush.He more than fulfilled those low expectation, of poor performance and waste.

Trouble is,bush also demonstrated in the most damaging ways possible that private business is no more competent that government is.

What Treasure is trying to say, is that she`d much rather prefer her hospital stay be cut short by a for-profit insurance bureaucrat(who`s bonus depends on the number of claims denied) than by a government bureaucrat.


Now you have done it, Owner!
You have compared the government to those damn greedy could care less/sort of hope I die insurance companies!
Hell, I will have to take the government and hope for the best.
 



Owner59 -> RE: I found It! I found it!! Where healthcare is a "Right" in the US... (5/14/2009 8:47:30 PM)

[:D]



TreasureKY -> RE: I found It! I found it!! Where healthcare is a "Right" in the US... (5/14/2009 8:49:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

...which takes me back to my original question to you. The French system which we've discussed in depth is run by a central government. The Canadian one is administered provincially, but there are basic standards set federally. The UK system is centralised. All these systems do work. So what is the special quality of the US government which means it can't do the same job?


I've not been avoiding your question, philosophy.  I've just not been quite sure how to explain it.

Sure, the US government might be able to duplicate the efforts made in other places in the world.  It's no less capable than any other government.  But I don't see any system without problems, and I doubt the US governement's ability to exceed what any other country has been able to do in this area.

Thing is, why would I want to trade the known problems we have now, for the unknown problems we'd face in changing?

Other than that, my response to kittin above is part of it... unlike some, I don't consider the Federal government to be... well, to put it in BDSM terms, my dominant.  My trust isn't all encompassing and I didn't sign up for a no-limits relationship.  In fact, it's getting to the point where it's downright nonconsensual.

Additionally, I don't really care for the US government's track record in management.  There's nary a department or program that is well run, effective, and cost efficient.  If it were a private business, it would have gone under years ago.  Why would I want it to take over even more responsibility?

Then, there's the fact that I don't really believe it's the government's job to make sure every man, woman, and child has decent and affordable healthcare.  As I've said, I think the government is a necessary evil and should have very, very limited responsibilities and power. 



TreasureKY -> RE: I found It! I found it!! Where healthcare is a "Right" in the US... (5/14/2009 8:59:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

What Treasure is trying to say, is that she`d much rather prefer her hospital stay be cut short by a for-profit insurance bureaucrat(who`s bonus depends on the number of claims denied) than by a government bureaucrat.


Well... at least with an insurance bureaucrat, I can tell him to go fuck himself and his company.  I can get competitive quotes, or I can decide to risk my savings and not have insurance.  Can't do that with the government and compulsory national healthcare, can you?



Owner59 -> RE: I found It! I found it!! Where healthcare is a "Right" in the US... (5/14/2009 9:48:29 PM)

 
You could also get tossed after paying premiums for decades for any number of reasons.

Or denied new coverage, for any number of reasons.



ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: I found It! I found it!! Where healthcare is a "Right" in the US... (5/14/2009 9:54:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
...which takes me back to my original question to you. The French system which we've discussed in depth is run by a central government. The Canadian one is administered provincially, but there are basic standards set federally. The UK system is centralised. All these systems do work. So what is the special quality of the US government which means it can't do the same job?


Vendaval beat me to it, but she's got the answer. It's not that the American government can't administer a national health program as well as any other country can - what we all fear is that by the time the government finishes letting the medical industry's lobbyists right the law, the program they wind up with will be so hopelessly fucked up, it would be impossible for any government to properly administer.

And that's a very valid concern. Frankly, I don't expect them to get it anywhere near right on the first try. I think the first attempt may very well be as fucked up as Firm and Treasure and the others fear it will be - my hope is that they learn from the mistakes they'll make on the first attempt, and adapt relatively quickly so that within a few years after implementation, they've got a solid, functional program. We shall see.



LadyConstanze -> RE: I found It! I found it!! Where healthcare is a "Right" in the US... (5/14/2009 10:40:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

 
That is the big question and much of the answer has to do with the AMA and lobbyists in Washington D.C.


quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
The French system which we've discussed in depth is run by a central government. The Canadian one is administered provincially, but there are basic standards set federally. The UK system is centralised. All these systems do work. So what is the special quality of the US government which means it can't do the same job?



Most European systems are centralized, I would say the French and the German system are the best if you are a patient, the NHS (UK system) is possibly the worst I've ever encountered, but then when I was in the US I had a European health insurance and could basically pick any doctor I wanted, they refunded me the European private rates (actually roughly the same as the US rates) and any treatment a doctor recommended was OKed by them. I heard from people on Medicare that they were everything but happy and only had a few select doctors they could see and long waiting lists...



philosophy -> RE: I found It! I found it!! Where healthcare is a "Right" in the US... (5/14/2009 11:08:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

Then, there's the fact that I don't really believe it's the government's job to make sure every man, woman, and child has decent and affordable healthcare.  As I've said, I think the government is a necessary evil and should have very, very limited responsibilities and power. 



...i think this is the key point. In the US, unlike virtually every other Western Nation, there is a large minority (maybe a majority) who simply don't want the government running things. i'm reminded strongly of Firefly, the Josh Whedon series that was tragically cancelled. The US was founded as a country on the frontier.....the fringe. Consequently, a distrust of central government is built in. Indeed, it can be argued the US constitution is a document designed to prevent an efficient central government.
The Founders could not possibly have foreseen the Global Economy, or a US political philosophy that decided it had to be part of it.....
So there is a split personality in the US political character. On the one side it wants to be a super-power. A broker of how the world works. It needs foreign trade. And like the Russian Revolution, there are some who seek to export its revolutionary ideas to the rest of the world. And on the other side there are those who want as small a government as possible. Those two positions are, if not mutually exclusive, certainly antagonistic.
The debate over health care is a clear symptom of this dichotomy. On one side we have those who know that government ought not to be involved......on the other there are those who see what is happening in other countries and ask, why not here?
i'm not sure how those two views can be reconciled. The US is not a frontier any more. It's not the fringes of the known world. However, a large part of its social DNA is predicated on that assumption. The core of this issue is the constitution. The document that tells the USA how to be the USA. When we debate health care in the US, we are also obliquely debating how relevant is the constitution anymore. We may need to turn that on its head. Debate the constitution and obliquely debate health care. We may get further.



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