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RE: Pelosi says Bush team misled her on waterboarding - 5/17/2009 2:26:07 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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Status: offline 		It is not a semantic arguement, that is what you started doing. It is exactly what I said.


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Panetta refutes Pelosi statement.

Whether there are other facts that will be uncovered, the statement I made that Panetta refuted Pelosi's statement is irrefutable. That was the entire point. Accept that fact or not.



That depends what you are asking me to accept as fact.

If you want me to agree to your semantic argument, fine.

If you are asking me to agree that what Panetta said proves Pelosi wrong, not so fine.



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RE: Pelosi says Bush team misled her on waterboarding - 5/17/2009 2:30:22 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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Status: offline 		" The question might be raised, but it’s not answered. I asked CIA spokesman George Little whether Graham is telling the truth and he declined comment. "

http://washingtonindependent.com/43143/graham-says-cia-admitted-briefings-error-cia-declines-to-respond

We do not know for sure, we have Graham saying they admitted to mistakes on the of 4 dates.

An investigation may reveal more.


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Hold on. We already know the CIA lied about this. They lied to former senator Graham and have admitted to it.


Then I missed something.  Have a link?



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RE: Pelosi says Bush team misled her on waterboarding - 5/17/2009 3:31:55 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

" The question might be raised, but it’s not answered. I asked CIA spokesman George Little whether Graham is telling the truth and he declined comment. "

http://washingtonindependent.com/43143/graham-says-cia-admitted-briefings-error-cia-declines-to-respond

We do not know for sure, we have Graham saying they admitted to mistakes on the of 4 dates.

An investigation may reveal more.


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Hold on. We already know the CIA lied about this. They lied to former senator Graham and have admitted to it.


Then I missed something.  Have a link?



Graham has quite a reputation for honesty and his notes are a matter of public record. The CIA didn't comment because they are caught.

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RE: Pelosi says Bush team misled her on waterboarding - 5/17/2009 4:03:46 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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Status: offline 		I am inclined to believe that way as well, but I will not make my final conclusion until there are substantiated facts. If you want to use history, Pelosi has five different versions of the CIA incident on record. This makes me believe that she is incorrect or lying. Until there is an investigation, we will not know.


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Graham has quite a reputation for honesty and his notes are a matter of public record. The CIA didn't comment because they are caught.


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RE: Pelosi says Bush team misled her on waterboarding - 5/17/2009 4:20:58 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Graham has quite a reputation for honesty and his notes are a matter of public record. The CIA didn't comment because they are caught.



        This doesn't add up right, Ken.  If Graham's notes are public record, and the briefing was classified (we can only assume), then he would have a problem making accurate notes, wouldn't he?  You DO understand about security clearances and all, I'm sure.

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RE: Pelosi says Bush team misled her on waterboarding - 5/17/2009 4:33:28 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Graham has quite a reputation for honesty and his notes are a matter of public record. The CIA didn't comment because they are caught.



       This doesn't add up right, Ken.  If Graham's notes are public record, and the briefing was classified (we can only assume), then he would have a problem making accurate notes, wouldn't he?  You DO understand about security clearances and all, I'm sure.

His notes only include the time and duration of the briefings.

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RE: Pelosi says Bush team misled her on waterboarding - 5/18/2009 8:26:19 AM   
Owner59


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From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		Doesn`t look good,Rich.

Why don`t you guys go for the standard GOP default position?

Graham is a pathological liar.

He`s a partisan hack with a long history of making things up.

Graham`s word is worthless.

Oh,and don`t forget....he`s a little nutty.But shhhhh...make sure that that part, is a whisper campaign.Don`t want to be obvious.

Don`t worry that regular folks might catch wind of the smear.They aren`t the target audience.Even if the republo-smear doesn`t work on them,it`s no biggie.Republicans will believe it,repeat it and that`s all that matters.

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RE: Pelosi says Bush team misled her on waterboarding - 5/18/2009 10:05:25 AM   
UncleNasty


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

She's a career politician, she lies for a living.


There is more to it than that I think.

Politicians, especially career politicians, lie for a living. They also are very successful at convincing us that they haven't lied, don't lie, are incapable of lying, and that lies are all their opponents are capable of.

People typically align themselves with the politicians that are telling the lies they want to hear, and align against those that are telling the lies they don't want to hear. Thus is born partisanship, denial and cognizant dissonance.

Politicians - all lies, all the time. LOL

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RE: Pelosi says Bush team misled her on waterboarding - 5/18/2009 12:18:07 PM   
CreativeDominant


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Status: offline 		Don't worry...somehow, someway, this will alllllllllllllll be Bush's/the GOP's fault...cuz Lord KNOWS the Democrats are always honest (well, except for Clinton, Kennedy, Carter, etc.) and would never EVER stand for one thing and then change their stance when it appeared best to do so (the many Democrats who got behind the war who now say...when their party is in power and the anti-war fervor runs deep...that they were realllllllllly against it all along but every single one of them was askeered of that big bad ole Bush and Cheney).

I'll wait and see how this all plays out but let's for once be honest...Democrats are just as capable of lying and covering their ass as Republicans.  In fact, I've yet to see a politician who, somewhere along the way, didn't do just that and that holds true for politicians of any stripe.

< Message edited by CreativeDominant -- 5/18/2009 12:33:25 PM >

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RE: Pelosi says Bush team misled her on waterboarding - 5/18/2009 3:38:20 PM   
rulemylife


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Status: offline 		Not really relevant to the facts, but interesting:


Poll: Democrats think CIA lied to Nancy Pelosi‎ - 6 hours ago
Among all voters, 43 percent believe Pelosi while 41 percent do not. ... According to the automated Rasmussen poll, which surveyed 1000 likely voters ...Politico

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Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Pelosi says Bush team misled her on waterboarding - 5/18/2009 3:56:23 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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Status: offline 		I do not put a lot of stock in partisan surveys. That would be like taking a poll of Republicans that believe that Iraq had something to do with the WTC attack.

On a seperate note, I was doing some reading and if anyone, including Graham, has evidence that the CIA or anyone lied to Congress, they should give that evidence to the DOJ. Someone having that evidence, and witholds it, is actually consider complicit in the crime.

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RE: Pelosi says Bush team misled her on waterboarding - 5/18/2009 4:37:50 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

I do not put a lot of stock in partisan surveys. That would be like taking a poll of Republicans that believe that Iraq had something to do with the WTC attack.


All I said was it was interesting, but if Rasmussen is partisan, it is definitely not partisan toward Democrats.  They had a working relationship with Fox News during the last election, if you recall the Fox/Rasmussen polls.  Which makes the results all the more interesting.
quote:




On a seperate note, I was doing some reading and if anyone, including Graham, has evidence that the CIA or anyone lied to Congress, they should give that evidence to the DOJ. Someone having that evidence, and witholds it, is actually consider complicit in the crime.


You've been listening to too much John Boehner.

I mean, really, what kind of evidence would they have?  Graham's personal notes?  That's not evidence.  But he is hardly trying to withhold them or he wouldn't have made their existence public. 

Boehner, a few weeks ago called for the release of CIA documents to settle the matter, then when he realized the possibility that those might not support his agenda, he switched gears and made this ridiculous call yesterday for Pelosi and Graham to provide evidence:


House Minority Leader John Boehner (R-Ohio) also had Pelosi in his sights Sunday. 

“Lying to the Congress of the United States is a crime, and if the speaker is accusing the CIA and other intelligence officials of lying or misleading the Congress, then they should come forward with evidence,” Boehner said on CNN’s “State of the Union.” 
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0509/22627.html#ixzz0Fu6nIrQ1&B
   




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RE: Pelosi says Bush team misled her on waterboarding - 5/18/2009 8:06:58 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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Status: offline 		I went back and checked, and they did not attribute those comments to anyone, even though they used it word for word. Had it been a partisan statement I would have just blown it off, as I do with either side of the isle. I did originally see a site link to the actual (supposedly) law about lying to congressional committees, and it did state it was a crime and to withold evidence of it was a crime as well.

I can see where it is not evidence of lying, just evidence that it may be incorrect. So do you think an investigation would actually turn up the truth, or do you believe that anyone that has something to hide is scrambling to take care of that? From what I can see several Dems are wanting to plead ignorance so that this "truth commision" will not find fault with them. What does not make sense to me, is if the DOJ attorneys at the time said it was legal, then even if someone knew about it, they were following the legal council given at the time.

I think the Obama is warning in a subtle way, that a huge investigation will cause more divisions than what we need at this point in time. If people are guilty, then the chips should fall, but if it damages some of the repairs Obama is doing, is that an acceptable cost?

All of this is really seeming like CYA for many people (both sides of the aisle), and again the American people will never know the actual truth.

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Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Pelosi says Bush team misled her on waterboarding - 5/18/2009 8:24:28 PM   
TheHeretic


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From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Doesn`t look good,Rich.

Why don`t you guys go for the standard GOP default position?



     Sorry to disappoint, O59, but I have no idea what that would be.  I don't get the talking point emails, and, judging from your posts, I'd say you spend a lot more time listening to Limbaugh (whoever) than I do.

      Pelosi is a partisan hack, without any core principles, who will say anything to advance her position of the day.  (Now who else does that remind me of?)

     Who benefits?  Who has a reason to lie?  Can we eliminate the simplest, and most obvious answer before we go leaping to investigate a criminal conspiracy? 

   

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: Pelosi says Bush team misled her on waterboarding - 5/19/2009 12:00:51 AM   
popeye1250


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Status: offline 		Pelosi = "The gift that keeps on giving."

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RE: Pelosi says Bush team misled her on waterboarding - 5/19/2009 7:29:35 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		Why is that ,Pop?

And what are the gifts?

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"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

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RE: Pelosi says Bush team misled her on waterboarding - 5/19/2009 6:47:20 PM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
     Pelosi is a partisan hack, without any core principles, who will say anything to advance her position of the day.
  


Agreed, but... I am still dumbfounded that she went on the attack and claimed that the CIA lies on a regular basis.  I cannot fathom how she was evidently unaware of the predictable, natural response.


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The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

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RE: Pelosi says Bush team misled her on waterboarding - 5/19/2009 7:11:58 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
    Pelosi is a partisan hack, without any core principles, who will say anything to advance her position of the day.
 


Agreed, but... I am still dumbfounded that she went on the attack and claimed that the CIA lies on a regular basis.  I cannot fathom how she was evidently unaware of the predictable, natural response.



Don't feel badly, Stven, nobody else can figure it out either. What advantage could she possibly have expected to gain? I knew she was stupid, but I never dreamed she was this stupid. Apparently she is, though.


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RE: Pelosi says Bush team misled her on waterboarding - 5/19/2009 8:37:20 PM   
Owner59


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From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzCHroq5R7g




Where was Gingrich when bush was blaming and scapegoating the CIA for the "intelligence failure" that supposedly got into Iraq?

Where was Gingrich and his harsh criticisms when bush leaked the ID of a CIA agent?

Now he(and the rest of the cons) act as if the CIA is Omnipotent,without flaw or defect.
To criticize the agency is "UN-American" and harming our agents...

I mean WTF? lol
.
~~~~~~~~

Just before and after the election there was talk of a "truth commission".But it kinda dwindled.

Now with all the GOP grandstanding and finger pointing,trying to shift blame as they change their story torture rational/excuse yet again, has created a new interest in an investigation.

Talk about throwing the hair in the brier patch....lol

I think Ms Pelosi is going to stand strong and call the GOP` bluff.


< Message edited by Owner59 -- 5/19/2009 8:38:24 PM >

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

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RE: Pelosi says Bush team misled her on waterboarding - 5/19/2009 9:44:55 PM   
DarkSteven


Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline 		Gingrich is Rip Van Winkle.  When Clinton was in power, he was vocal, and then disappeared during the Bush Administration.  Now he's back...

I suspect that he got burned out and decided to retire before, but that the GOP's current power vacuum was too much for him to resist.


_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

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Profile   Post #: 80
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