Feeling Guilty

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Slipstreme -> Feeling Guilty (2/6/2006 2:07:22 PM)
As a member of the furry community, I have many characters I roleplay as, one in particular, a favorite of mine, Gorath the sadistically evil owl gryphon. Well that was all good and fine knowing it was fantasy and such, using said character to dump my frustrations into, but it turns out the sadism behind him is real. I realized last night watching my friends play around. they are a Master/ slave couple, and although I knew the slave was in mortal fear of what her Master was tormenting her with I enjoyed every minute of it. She is one of my best friends. I would die for her, but also having learned she has punishment coming up, a punishment that will undoubtably leave her in pain she won't like, I am excited about it. I wish I could be sympathetic for her but I can't. So basically I am having a hard time dealing with the fact I know that I am capable of enjoying the nonconsentual nature of unwanted pain as well as the pain a masochist begs to be inflicted with. For one I remember hearing from many Doms that they don't enjoy punishing their submissives and I fear that if I choose a full D/s path that I will. For those who have experienced this, how do you deal with it, knowing that you take pleasure out of causing and witnessing pain? Pain that for all intents and purposes may or may not be of a concentual or desired nature. I keep thinking back on my own masochistic side, which also seeks severe pain, such that the idea (mind you idea, I've yet to experience) being beaten to a bloody pulp is very arousing, such a beating that may or may not put me in subspace. At least although I enjoy pain, I've yet to have much moral qualm over it, although I don't understand it. Who does? We are only human after all. But to take pleasure out of that which is undesired, that I can't seem to accept, understand and embrace, especially when the target of such are people I care about. As such I feel guilty, having to confront a part of me that is the antithesis of who I thought I was; a caring, kind and friendly individual.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Feeling Guilty (2/6/2006 2:25:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Slipstreme For those who have experienced this, how do you deal with it, knowing that you take pleasure out of causing and witnessing pain? Pain that for all intents and purposes may or may not be of a concentual or desired nature. Welcome to the world of sadism. quote: But to take pleasure out of that which is undesired, that I can't seem to accept, understand and embrace, especially when the target of such are people I care about. As such I feel guilty, having to confront a part of me that is the antithesis of who I thought I was; a caring, kind and friendly individual. Many sadists resolve this by being "fluffy" sadists- only beating someone when they want it or get high directly from the pain. Some sadists eventually balance it within themselves. The recognize the difference between an ethical and an unethical sadist. The resolve to be an ethical sadist- hurt people who consent to it, and feed their primal beasts within that framework. It's a very scary and overwhelming place. I know when I realized I could easily kill another human being, it took me quite a lot of soul searching and work before I could reconcile that within myself and simply accept it as myself and as right. I still occasionally grapple with that demon. But it's there, inside me, and always will be. The best I can do is recognize it and balance it within what I consider right and best in my life.

Sirandlittle1 -> RE: Feeling Guilty (2/6/2006 2:39:43 PM)
I personally cannot overcome the dissonance within me. I am kind caring etc. except when inflicting pain. The two times i have been in this situation, it has not been within bdsm consenting scenario. I do not have the control required to play in this area. The high is 'too' high to control. Frankly, i sicken myself. But it is within me, part of me, what makes me, Me. I admire those that have the necessary control in this area. Knowing when to stop is not so difficult. Stopping is. So, no, i dont go there. But that was in another life. Now i have other focus's.

proudsub -> RE: Feeling Guilty (2/6/2006 2:42:22 PM)
quote: I know that I am capable of enjoying the nonconsentual nature of unwanted pain In my book, even if it is punishment, if it is nonconsensual then it is abuse.

seaturtle50 -> RE: Feeling Guilty (2/6/2006 3:19:02 PM)
quote: But to take pleasure out of that which is undesired, that I can't seem to accept, understand and embrace, especially when the target of such are people I care about. As such I feel guilty, having to confront a part of me that is the antithesis of who I thought I was; a caring, kind and friendly individual. i am inexperienced in this context, but am left wondering why the two are mutually exclusive. Can not a caring, kind, and friendly individual not get a pleasure from the pain and suffering of a dear one, within said context? My rhetorical question is then If not, why not? i am afraid that my own initial answer has something to do with "shoulds" and "supposed to's" and personally i have more disdain for those two concepts than i have for the supposed dilema. quote: Some sadists eventually balance it within themselves. The recognize the difference between an ethical and an unethical sadist. The resolve to be an ethical sadist- hurt people who consent to it, and feed their primal beasts within that framework. i could not read the above words without thoughts of Lestat coming to mind. st50

AAkasha -> RE: Feeling Guilty (2/6/2006 3:43:23 PM)
I pulled up a post I wrote on usenet from 1998 or so on the topic of guilt. I still feel the same way -- if not more: ** I feel guilt after a good bdsm scene. I mean, I feel real guilt. Unfortunately, there is no good WORD to use for this; "guilt" has a bad tone to it. "Guilt" almost assumes there should be shame or remorse involved -- no, not at all in my case. I do not feel bad for what I did, nor would I take it back if I could. It's...it is empathy of the sub that endured what I put him through. I don't feel wrong about it, I just feel about it. A good scene creates enough guilt in me that I shed tears sometimes. It's a cleansing kind of tears; a transition from "what just happened," to "where we are right now." I enjoy it. I embrace that guilt. It makes it all seem even more real, more intense. A lot of the times, a sub says to me during this guilt phase (which only lasts about 5 minutes usually)..."what you did wasn't even that bad...." They don't realize, it wasn't what I did. It was what I was thinking in my head, as I did it -- often, that shakes me up. And, that personally, I would feel scared if I did not have that twinge of guilt afterward; it is my ethics and morals telling me, "whoa, reality check, you just hurt someone you care for...are you ok with that?" -- rather than a gleeful "well hell that was fun, who the hell can I beat the shit out of next?" The guilt is my touchstone to move me from femdom back to vanilla and allow me to embrace what I did and celebrate it, rather than feel shame from it. Akasha

Smythe -> RE: Feeling Guilty (2/6/2006 4:02:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Slipstreme But to take pleasure out of that which is undesired, that I can't seem to accept, understand and embrace, especially when the target of such are people I care about. As such I feel guilty, having to confront a part of me that is the antithesis of who I thought I was; a caring, kind and friendly individual. slipstreme, What you THINK and what you DO are two very different things. we don't always have control over the sometimes extreme and unacceptable things about which we think or fantasize. What we can control, and what impacts directly on those around us is, what we do. It sounds as though you don't have as much experience doing as thinking, and you are afraid that some of your scarier thoughts may make you do things that don't match up with the caring and kind person that you are. Accept your thoughts for what they are...inside you. And when and if the time comes to act be very conscious, be very aware and move very slowly. Soon you will learn to trust yourself to act in ways that you can accept. As a sadist, I have had to move through this process as well. Smythe

Slipstreme -> RE: Feeling Guilty (2/6/2006 4:19:28 PM)
Thank you all for your insight. LA: I probably will take the route of an ethical sadist. I see the benefits of behaviour modification, and if the time comes that I do pursue a D/s dynamic, I would have to be comfortable with the idea of punishment. Although enjoying it, is something I find hard to come to terms with, because in all honesty I will. Proudsub: Yes I fear my capability to be an abuser. The punishment aforementioned, and the play the Master/slave couple I was talking about, is allowed under contract, if you call that consent. Technically, she has no choice aside from that her Master decides. Akasha: That does explain the guilt I feel, knowing I am doing this to someone I care about. Someone I would die to protect. Smythe: Yes I am inexperienced, very new to BDSM in practice. So yes, I fear I may take things too far or use implements in a way that is unsafe. So far however, I have been able to control the scene and how far I take it.

jamesthehumanrug -> RE: Feeling Guilty (2/6/2006 6:52:00 PM)
greetings slip stream not only is your name a creamy dream name but cream is all i think when i read this

xxblushesxx -> RE: Feeling Guilty (2/6/2006 10:11:04 PM)
Find yourself a nice masochist...play 'nice' (safe) and enjoy yourself...why would you feel guilty knowing you are providing what your partner needs? (and yourself as well, in the process) Good luck!

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Feeling Guilty (2/7/2006 6:02:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: xxblushesxx Find yourself a nice masochist...play 'nice' (safe) and enjoy yourself...why would you feel guilty knowing you are providing what your partner needs? (and yourself as well, in the process) Good luck! For some sadists, they actually want to HURT the other person. They do not want a masochist who will get high off of it- they want them to be in ACTUAL pain. That's what pushes their buttons. It still serves the other persons consent to the pain and to serve by giving them their sadistic pleasure. But the other person doesn't have a need/want to be in pain like a masochist does, instead a need/want to be used as an outlet for the pain.

IrishMist -> RE: Feeling Guilty (2/7/2006 7:35:24 AM)
quote: For some sadists, they actually want to HURT the other person. They do not want a masochist who will get high off of it- they want them to be in ACTUAL pain. That's what pushes their buttons. Yep. My late husband was alot like this. /nods in agreement with LA

BitaTruble -> RE: Feeling Guilty (2/7/2006 10:43:14 AM)
quote: So basically I am having a hard time dealing with the fact I know that I am capable of enjoying the nonconsentual nature of unwanted pain as well as the pain a masochist begs to be inflicted with. For one I remember hearing from many Doms that they don't enjoy punishing their submissives and I fear that if I choose a full D/s path that I will. The only thing that holds them there, withstanding the levels of pain inflicted on them, is their consent. You have no need to feel guilty for their choices. Unwanted is not the same as nonconsensual. One of my many mantras - You don't get what you want, you get what you get. If you want what you get, count your blessings. If you get what you deserve, consider it justice. Celeste

slavejali -> RE: Feeling Guilty (2/7/2006 10:59:05 AM)
i think your describing two sides of the same coin, there is nothing conflicting here, which is kinda balanced really. On one hand, you say, you enjoy your masochistic side. quote: I keep thinking back on my own masochistic side, which also seeks severe pain, such that the idea (mind you idea, I've yet to experience) being beaten to a bloody pulp is very arousing, such a beating that may or may not put me in subspace. At least although I enjoy pain, I've yet to have much moral qualm over it, although I don't understand it. Who does? We are only human after all. On the other hand, you are saying you enjoy viewing others when put into the same position. quote: I realized last night watching my friends play around. they are a Master/ slave couple, and although I knew the slave was in mortal fear of what her Master was tormenting her with I enjoyed every minute of it. She is one of my best friends. I would die for her, but also having learned she has punishment coming up, a punishment that will undoubtably leave her in pain she won't like, I am excited about it. I wish I could be sympathetic for her but I can't. Aren't you just really turned on by what you can appreciate yourself? Whats the conflict? No need for guilt. (Hope this post made sense, im down and out with the flu.)

JohnWarren -> RE: Feeling Guilty (2/7/2006 11:04:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Slipstreme For one I remember hearing from many Doms that they don't enjoy punishing their submissives and I fear that if I choose a full D/s path that I will. Flat statement: There is not such thing as the "full D/s path." There are many ways to enjoy this; some include pain; some don't. The only thing that needs to be "full" is your and your partner's enjoyment. Do what you enjoy. Don't worry about the rest.

ownedgirlie -> RE: Feeling Guilty (2/7/2006 11:24:25 AM)
i understood this thread to be that the submissive would receive punishment, which would cause her pain. Punishment is not supposed to be pleasureable, is it? Or it would not be punishment. Consensual slavery also means an understanding that unenjoyable punishment will occur as a consequence for poor behavior. Some slaves need it more than others. Some are affected by different forms of punishment. "nonconsenutal nature of unwanted pain". The pain in a punishment may not be wanted, but for a slave who knows she needs punishment, there is nothing nonconsentual about it. Unless i missunderstood something...?

Slipstreme -> RE: Feeling Guilty (2/8/2006 1:11:42 PM)
No you didn't misunderstand anything. I just posted stupidly, as it is consentual between them under contract. Thing is, if I were to take on a submissive or slave later on in life, certainly not now. I don't think I have the ability as of yet to think about doing a 24/7 or close to a 24/7. I would have to punish them for bad behaviour. However, the guilt came from knowing I would enjoy inflicting that punishment upon them, just as I enjoyed watching my friend put in a situation she didn't like, and enjoyed knowing she was soon to be punished for bad behaviour in her dynamic. It also has a bit to deal with the fact I am afriad that I would enjoy inflicting nonconsentual pain, should I get in a situation where I can't stop myself, or should the oppertunity present itself. This I find unethical and inappropriate. I typically would rather hurt myself before I hurt another, especially those I hold close. However, my inner sadism seems to want to beg to differ. This is where the nonconsentual part came in.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Feeling Guilty (2/8/2006 1:19:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Slipstreme No you didn't misunderstand anything. I just posted stupidly, as it is consentual between them under contract. Thing is, if I were to take on a submissive or slave later on in life, certainly not now. I don't think I have the ability as of yet to think about doing a 24/7 or close to a 24/7. I would have to punish them for bad behaviour. However, the guilt came from knowing I would enjoy inflicting that punishment upon them, just as I enjoyed watching my friend put in a situation she didn't like, and enjoyed knowing she was soon to be punished for bad behaviour in her dynamic. It also has a bit to deal with the fact I am afriad that I would enjoy inflicting nonconsentual pain, should I get in a situation where I can't stop myself, or should the oppertunity present itself. This I find unethical and inappropriate. I typically would rather hurt myself before I hurt another, especially those I hold close. However, my inner sadism seems to want to beg to differ. This is where the nonconsentual part came in. There's a difference between "play punishment" and "actual punishment." For me, when I ACTUALLY punish one of my boys, I dont enjoy it at all. I know they've disappointed me, disobeyed me, done something their silly little heads KNOW is wrong and now I need to put energy into fixing it. It also makes me have to review my processes, make sure THEY are still sure this is where they want to go and do some revisions on training. Not fun. Now, when you punish someone in play (Oh you forgot to say Sir yes master sir that 3rd time I whacked you so now you're gonna get serious pain tonight) it's a type of play in itself. It's a way people can justify hurting eachother without dealing with the guilt (which is what your problem is/was). You can still enjoy the hurting of someone, but knowing it's for fun and not seriously due to disappointment. Now, in the case of schaudenfraude, taking pleasure in someone else's distress, that's just life. Since you're not the one on the block or giving the block, it's perfectly fine to take some thrill in the energy and experience. I assure you it can be quite different when you're in the experience itself.

veronicaofML -> RE: Feeling Guilty (2/8/2006 2:18:21 PM)
I pulled up a post I wrote on usenet from 1998 or so on the topic of guilt. I still feel the same way -- if not more: ================== well i'll be damned...You actually HAVE feelings.... i am happy to see Your human side come out...finally. thank You for sharing and yet i cannot understand.. these feelings you all are talking about. ya mean boys actually think you are hurting them and should feel bad? wow i am stunned. MY experience is the boys holler if ya DONT do it...i have bore witness to stuff with my 1st Ms.. all them boys coming in begging for "stripes" on their back... i find this interesting

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