RE: different loves?

RE: different loves? (Full Version)

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IrishMist -> RE: different loves? (5/20/2009 4:48:33 AM)
quote: A lot of women have had no option in the past but to be the slaves of men. You make that sound as if it's a bad thing.

IrishMist -> RE: different loves? (5/20/2009 4:54:06 AM)
quote: Staying in a bad relationship where you are miserable is never a good idea. The idea that you can leave is far from ridiculous. There are so many abused women who leave with no where to go because it is what is necessary for their safety. Saying you have no where to go is an excuse and a cop out. But it a problem that starts when a person (usually a woman) lives only for her man's happiness and becomes "unmarketable" in the working world. Everyone should have the courage and foresight to make sure that they can care for themselves. Not just because relationships end, but because people die. In both cases, a person can find themselve without means of support because someone else was doing it all their lives. The idea that one must be "priveledged" to be able to leave is ludicrous. But I guess it all comes down to how much you value yourself and whether or not you think you are deserving of happiness. I'm not saying it is ever a simple, easy decision. In fact, I think before ending ANY relationship, a great deal of thought should go into the decision. But if the bad outweighs the good, and there isn't a way to change that balance, staying and being miserable isn't worth it. It's not very often that I agree with you; but this time, I can say that I do. Well said

LATEXBABY64 -> RE: different loves? (5/20/2009 9:08:03 AM)
there is also a thing called relationship jumping were people just want the honeymoon period of the relationship not work at it

IronBear -> RE: different loves? (5/20/2009 9:29:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady quote: ORIGINAL: lateralist1 The idea that we can all leave relationships that don't make us happy is rediculous. The priveledged few can. A lot don't have anywhere to go. Staying in a bad relationship where you are miserable is never a good idea. The idea that you can leave is far from ridiculous. There are so many abused women who leave with no where to go because it is what is necessary for their safety. Saying you have no where to go is an excuse and a cop out. But it a problem that starts when a person (usually a woman) lives only for her man's happiness and becomes "unmarketable" in the working world. Everyone should have the courage and foresight to make sure that they can care for themselves. Not just because relationships end, but because people die. In both cases, a person can find themselve without means of support because someone else was doing it all their lives. The idea that one must be "priveledged" to be able to leave is ludicrous. But I guess it all comes down to how much you value yourself and whether or not you think you are deserving of happiness. I'm not saying it is ever a simple, easy decision. In fact, I think before ending ANY relationship, a great deal of thought should go into the decision. But if the bad outweighs the good, and there isn't a way to change that balance, staying and being miserable isn't worth it. I agree with LafayetteLady here on two grounds. Firstly, what may seem correct to someone in one area or country does not make it so in another where there may be more adequate support systems in place. Secondly if you study the "Battered Wife's Syndrome" you will find that a battered wife keeps returning because it is all she knows and if often afraid to make a clean break for numerous reasons and of course all to often she believes that the abusing husband will change. One of the areas I do deal with as a Therapist and as a Priest is the results of long term spousal abuse and the answers come up with this for 99.9% of the abused wives. Extending this to a wider area, when confidence is below the floor boards things appear hopeless and can be the cause of suicides too. The privilaged few are those wioth independent means such as a regular job or the means of earning a quid or of course a family who will offer financial support.

IronBear -> RE: different loves? (5/20/2009 9:32:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LATEXBABY64 there is also a thing called relationship jumping were people just want the honeymoon period of the relationship not work at it Guess you must have known my second wife then The first three years were pure Hollywood and the remaining and the remaining ten years were .... well lets just say my 5 year tour of Vietnam was a holiday in comparison..

LafayetteLady -> RE: different loves? (5/20/2009 10:30:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: IrishMist It's not very often that I agree with you; but this time, I can say that I do. Well said Thank you

LafayetteLady -> RE: different loves? (5/20/2009 10:48:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: IronBear I agree with LafayetteLady here on two grounds. Firstly, what may seem correct to someone in one area or country does not make it so in another where there may be more adequate support systems in place. Secondly if you study the "Battered Wife's Syndrome" you will find that a battered wife keeps returning because it is all she knows and if often afraid to make a clean break for numerous reasons and of course all to often she believes that the abusing husband will change. One of the areas I do deal with as a Therapist and as a Priest is the results of long term spousal abuse and the answers come up with this for 99.9% of the abused wives. Extending this to a wider area, when confidence is below the floor boards things appear hopeless and can be the cause of suicides too. The privilaged few are those wioth independent means such as a regular job or the means of earning a quid or of course a family who will offer financial support. The sad reality is that women in abusive situations have either started out with low self esteem or the self esteem is chipped away with the constant abuse. Sadly, when someone is told day after day that they are worthless, and no one else would ever want them, they start to believe it. This is why abusers isolate their victims, so no one can keep them from believing it's true. I can't speak for other countries, but in the US, there are always options when you leave, each county has domestic violence hotlines, safehouses, etc. No, these women will not have many of the luxuries that they may have had in the relationship, but for those who take that route, they have realized that money isn't everything, and typically after much soul searching have decided that LIFE is more important than any material things. I do believe that the danger in this lifestyle is higher. Someone who identifies as a "slave" may find themselves being treated horribly, but told "this is the life of a slave," not only by their "master" but by the community at large. When it truly is an abusive relationship, this just fosters the feeling in the slave that they are stupid and wrong in their thinking. All too often, people jump on the "suck it up" wagon without any attempt to figure out whether someone is whining over silly crap that is part an parcel of the lifestyle, or there is real reason for concern. Happily, those people are the minority around here, but it doesn't make them less dangerous to the victim. In the case of the OP, the second she posted that she was laying on the floor injured and the worthless sot she was with just stepped over her taking no notice until he needed something else, red flags should have gone up for anyone with at least one working brain cell. It is sad that some people come here looking for support only to get slammed for lack of common sense, or to be told "well, you wanted to be a slave, so suck it up and deal with it." To take the postition at any time that someone does not deserve to have happiness and fufillment in life is deplorable. Everyone has the right to a happy and fufilling life and it doesn't matter if they chose to be a slave or not. The minute they decide that it is no longer fufilling for them, they need the support of their "community" (and the boards would qualify as such). As for the comment about "relationship jumping", sure it happens. It happens in the "vanilla" world just as much. We live in a world where people expect things to be rosy all the time and have lost the concept of having to work on a relationship. These same people who are "relationship jumping" have not found true happiness with the one they are with either. Once they do, the "work" at making a relationship successful isn't really "work" anymore. It is maintaining what makes you happy.

sweetgirlseeks -> RE: different loves? (5/20/2009 10:56:39 AM)
quote: and the remaining ten years were .... well lets just say my 5 year tour of Vietnam was a holiday in comparison.. Yikes!

IrishMist -> RE: different loves? (5/20/2009 11:01:18 AM)
LafayetterLady I understand what you are saying; much more than you realize. My issue with people who come here, claiming abuse is the simple fact that they SAY that they can't do this, can't do that, can't talk to anyone, can't go anwhere, etc, blah blah...and yet, their owner would allow them to come on a website and broadcast it? The lady who posted this added the bit about falling after her initial post...which to me says she was not getting the response she wanted so...what the hell, lets add this and Ill have EVERYONE on my side. I just am too cynical to believe a person who comes here complaining of abuse...and I don't buy the excuse of 'this may be the only place they have to go'...that's bullshit and I know it, and most people here know it...

LafayetteLady -> RE: different loves? (5/20/2009 11:23:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: IrishMist LafayetterLady I understand what you are saying; much more than you realize. My issue with people who come here, claiming abuse is the simple fact that they SAY that they can't do this, can't do that, can't talk to anyone, can't go anwhere, etc, blah blah...and yet, their owner would allow them to come on a website and broadcast it? The lady who posted this added the bit about falling after her initial post...which to me says she was not getting the response she wanted so...what the hell, lets add this and Ill have EVERYONE on my side. I just am too cynical to believe a person who comes here complaining of abuse...and I don't buy the excuse of 'this may be the only place they have to go'...that's bullshit and I know it, and most people here know it... IrishMist, I'm not talking about the people who are saying the "I can't/I'm not permitted", and in the situation with the OP, she may or may not be suffering from real abuse, she may not. Sometimes reading between the lines, even with your cynical eye can reveal a lot. In the case of the OP, to be clear, I believe that she is very new to this and she is finding that the fantasy and reality are far from similar. I also believe the guy she is with is likely a worthless, lazy sot who just likes the idea of having a "slave" but has no concept of the responsibility that comes with it. My opinion to her was that she has found this relationship is NOT fufilling for her, and if she is sure that it will never become so, she should move on, learn a bit more about her needs and wants and find a situation/relationship that will be more fufilling to her. This is never the only place that someone has to go. However, for many of us who are not open and public about our involvement, we don't have a lot of places to seek advice about a situation where BDSM is involved. I think most of us can admit that to the outside world, our views may be a bit different than the societal norm. But when someone is new and learning, they often jump into a relationship too quickly (even in vanilla) because they are anxious to get started. When things start happening that in a vanilla relationship they KNOW would be unacceptable, it might not be so clear that the behavior is unacceptable in this type of relationship dynamic. Everyone pretty much agrees that there is no one "true" way, but a newbie can get easily mislead by Mr.Wonderful, Prince of the Dimwits, that because they are a sub or a slave, they just have to deal with it. Most of the time, if they read other posts they can see that each relationship has its own set of rules. Personally, I admit that I don't "search" the posts. I have neither the time or the energy to do so. But just think if someone wanted to know how BDSM relationships "typically" worked and they tried to search it, how daunting the results would be. Certainly if there is a relatively new post, being repetitive can be annoying. But thinking someone is going to search for posts that are several years old rather than just starting a new thread is a little presumptious. Besides that, often questions can be repeated and many new people or new answers will come up and that "resurrected" thread idea becomes quite popular. All I'm saying really, there's nothing wrong with being cynical. Contrary to what you may believe about me, I am quite cynical and have no trouble calling "bullshit" when I see it. But when it is not completely clear that someone is just being an attention whore, I prefer to give the benefit of the doubt and try to offer encouragement and support the idea that each of remains a human being with thoughts, feelings, and needs and that there is nothing wrong with wanting to be with someone who recognizes those things. It's very easy to snap off at people and assume everyone is being dishonest, but for me believing that makes for a terrible world.

scottishdove -> RE: different loves? (5/20/2009 12:15:35 PM)
dear hunnibunni, the same thing happens in D/s relationships as in a Vanilla relationship when there is no realy compromise and attention to what both parties want and need. the relationship eventually ends as one of the parties dissatisfaction grows. you did the right thing. now you know a lot more, and are better prepared selecting your next Master. slave alice

OrionTheWolf -> RE: different loves? (5/24/2009 2:55:50 PM)
Can the "tour" be shorter and still relate to what you are saying? I definately know what you mean, and what Latexbaby means about the honeymoon period and relationship jumping. quote: ORIGINAL: IronBear quote: ORIGINAL: LATEXBABY64 there is also a thing called relationship jumping were people just want the honeymoon period of the relationship not work at it Guess you must have known my second wife then The first three years were pure Hollywood and the remaining and the remaining ten years were .... well lets just say my 5 year tour of Vietnam was a holiday in comparison..

OrionTheWolf -> RE: different loves? (5/24/2009 3:10:26 PM)
Greetings LafayetteLady, quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady quote: ORIGINAL: Malkinius Face it. Most people are not cut out to be a slave or to Master a slave. This is what Doms and subs are for. To go there when they want to then come back when it is no longer fun to play the game/the lifestyle/whatever you want to call what it is that they do. Too many people take on titles because it sounds good rather than because they have a clue what they do. Yes, it bugs those who do. I call them as I have seen them in practice. Yes, I have much higher standards than most. No, I don't cut people slack when it comes to being what they claim to be. And I really don't care if I insult or hurt someone's feelings if it keeps them out of much worse trouble and danger. It is better they be pissed at me than damaged or dead. Be well..... Malkinius Which brings into play the ridiculous concept that there is "one, true, accepted" way of being any of those titles. There isn't. There is what the two people in the relationship find to be the "true" way for them. The key, of course, is for those two people to meet and develop a relationship. Yes, the Goreans have a series of book that apparently more clearly defines what everyone is. But when real people are involved, you step out of the book and into reality. The very idea that everyone else is simply playing a "game" is ludicrous. Relationships that we read about in books (ALL FICTIONAL BOOKS) are rarely close to reality. It doesn't matter whether it is the typical romance novel where love conquers all, or science fiction. The people in the relationship define their roles in the way that works for them. In the Gorean culture it is not ridiculous, and I never saw Malkinius say that there was only one true way. He made a very good and valid statement. Some people are not cut out to be owners or slaves. Just like some are not cut out to be parents or teachers. Just like some are not cut out to be pet owners, or have animals. Do you see that none of this says there is a one true way, just that there are good and bad. Your comments of "real people" and such, is being inflammatory in a good discussion. Malkinius states the same as you "people in the relationship define their roles in the way that works for them." except he uses terminology that makes it more easily understood. quote: Everyone always has a choice. Do young people discover a curiousity and yearning and perhaps jump into this type of relationship far too quickly, only to find out that the reality falls far short of the fantasy? Of course they do. The problem only worsens when those poor inexperienced people come to these boards looking for advice and to learn more to be told they made a decision and now need to "suck it up" and deal with it. Certainly sometimes a person will find out that they might define themselves differently than they originally planned, but never have they REALLY surrendered their choices. The danger of "damage or death" comes from telling them that they have. The danger is in trying to tell people that there is only one "true" way of doing things. Of course you are free to hold people to YOUR definition of what the definitions are, but it doesn't make your definition right. It only makes it right for you. There are more than a few couples on here who identify themselves as being in M/s relationships that probably don't meet your "standard." It doesn't make their relationship any less M/s, because it works for them. As a Gorean, Malkinius used terminology that anyone that understood the Gorean Morality, would also understand. It is easy to see though how it could cause the perception you are getting. Dominant and submissive are adjetives in the Gorean culture, and not nouns. Malkinius tried to use those words, to draw a distinction between those that do the TPE 24/7, and those that reserve it for just play time. It appears he was doing nothing more and nothing less. quote: Advising those people in a way that keeps them out of harm's way is not accomplished by telling them they defined themselves incorrectly. It is accomplished with reminding them that regardless of how they identify, they are human beings with thoughts, feelings and hopefully some common sense and that just because they identify a certain way does NOT necessitate their surrender of any of those things. Yet far too often that is exactly what so many inexperienced "slaves" are told. They do not need to feel happy or fufilled. "Master" is deciding their fate now and their only job is to "obey." Again, they serve BECAUSE it makes them happy, BECAUSE it makes them fufilled. They are happy when they make their master happy and fufilled, yes, but it is still done because that is what makes them happy. No one enters into a consensual slavery dynamic because it will make "master" happy. It is because making "master" happy is what makes them happy. That is why slaves CHOOSE their masters. If serving just anyone with total disregard for their own happiness was actually the way it worked....all those fools who contact women with the "on your knees bitch, I am now your master" emails would have more slaves they could handle because all of the slaves would instantly obey. Those that kid themselves into thinking slaves serve just for the sake of serving are just fooling themselves. You seem to have gotten caught up on the terminology that Malkinius used, and missed the excellent point her was making. Maybe I can make it a little more simply. People should know themselves, and be what they are capable of being. To try and make yourself something beyond your means and nature, will lead to frustration and unhappiness. Live well, Orion

DavanKael -> RE: different loves? (5/24/2009 5:26:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP Just because someone says they love you doesn't mean he's a good person and not a selfish bastard. This is pretty profound and something I know I have been guilty of overlooking on occasion. Davan

LafayetteLady -> RE: different loves? (5/24/2009 5:28:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf quote: ORIGINAL: Malkinius Face it. Most people are not cut out to be a slave or to Master a slave. This is what Doms and subs are for. To go there when they want to then come back when it is no longer fun to play the game/the lifestyle/whatever you want to call what it is that they do. Too many people take on titles because it sounds good rather than because they have a clue what they do. Yes, it bugs those who do. I call them as I have seen them in practice. Yes, I have much higher standards than most. No, I don't cut people slack when it comes to being what they claim to be. And I really don't care if I insult or hurt someone's feelings if it keeps them out of much worse trouble and danger. It is better they be pissed at me than damaged or dead. Be well..... Malkinius While it may be admirable for you to jumpt to his defense, there isn't a lot of misinterpretation to the general public about what he was saying. He has consistently implied that those of us who don't follow the rules as he does are "playing." It was insulting then, it is insulting now, and it will continue to be insulting regardless of how you try to spin it. Further, the idea that he is that way to protect someone from harm or death? Because why? Someone who finds out they aren't cut out to be a slave will be physically injured or killed by some master? It makes no sense, and neither he or you has bothered to provide an example of how this would be. quote: Which brings into play the ridiculous concept that there is "one, true, accepted" way of being any of those titles. There isn't. There is what the two people in the relationship find to be the "true" way for them. The key, of course, is for those two people to meet and develop a relationship. Yes, the Goreans have a series of book that apparently more clearly defines what everyone is. But when real people are involved, you step out of the book and into reality. The very idea that everyone else is simply playing a "game" is ludicrous. Relationships that we read about in books (ALL FICTIONAL BOOKS) are rarely close to reality. It doesn't matter whether it is the typical romance novel where love conquers all, or science fiction. The people in the relationship define their roles in the way that works for them. quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf In the Gorean culture it is not ridiculous, and I never saw Malkinius say that there was only one true way. He made a very good and valid statement. Some people are not cut out to be owners or slaves. Just like some are not cut out to be parents or teachers. Just like some are not cut out to be pet owners, or have animals. Do you see that none of this says there is a one true way, just that there are good and bad. Your comments of "real people" and such, is being inflammatory in a good discussion. Malkinius states the same as you "people in the relationship define their roles in the way that works for them." except he uses terminology that makes it more easily understood. Please tell me where above I called the Gorean culture ridiculous. You quote Malkinius above, yet he clearly stated that most of "us" are "playing." The interpretation is that while we define our roles within our relationship, from HIS perspective, there is only one true way, and "our" definations are "just fancy titles" we picked up somewhere. It's insulting to the men on this site that I would call wonderful masters, but don't subscribe to his belief. Regardless, I never called your way of "being" ridiculous. I said that saying there is only "one, true, way" is ridiculous. quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf As a Gorean, Malkinius used terminology that anyone that understood the Gorean Morality, would also understand. It is easy to see though how it could cause the perception you are getting. Dominant and submissive are adjetives in the Gorean culture, and not nouns. Malkinius tried to use those words, to draw a distinction between those that do the TPE 24/7, and those that reserve it for just play time. It appears he was doing nothing more and nothing less. I won't pretend I "understand" the Gorean Morality, nor will I pretend I have a desire to (If I want to learn about it I will ask my questions to someone whose answers I would respect). This post is not in the Gorean forum, and if it were I would never have seen it, nor posted to the thread. Since the Gorean Culture is something you learned at a later point in life, you learned the ability to communicate effectively with the rest of the world first. Again you are defending his language when he was indeed quite clear. Those who are able to laugh, communicate and discuss in a different way than he, or you, feels is appropriate for an M/s relationship is just playing. To imply that peppermint or breathasone don't have the proper M/s relationship is presumptious, pompous and ignorant. What they have may not meet his or your definitions, but you aren't in THEIR relationship, so it doesn't matter. What I HAVE found about many Goreans and what I WILL say about Goreans is that this "holier than thou" attitude is what tends to alienate you from the general community, and if, as you all claim, your beliefs are based on morals and ethics, then you would realize that such an attitude does not garner respect and certainly never appears dignified. IronBear was very active in the Gorean way of life for a long time and never posts on this board being demeaning or undignified in any way, and the respect that others show to him comes from that. So when you or others go on and on about the Gorean "whatever" with such pompous, presumptious, undignified responses, do you really not understand why people react the way they do? quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf You seem to have gotten caught up on the terminology that Malkinius used, and missed the excellent point her was making. Maybe I can make it a little more simply. People should know themselves, and be what they are capable of being. To try and make yourself something beyond your means and nature, will lead to frustration and unhappiness. Live well, Orion First of all, I didn't miss any point Malkinius was making. I disagreed with what he said and clearly stated why. As for people never looking to be beyond their means or nature? Get a grip. Everyday, people strive to achieve everything they can to make their lives better, to become something people tell them they can't. Have you noticed, we have our first multi-racial president? I'm sure growing up, many told him that was beyond his "means and nature." People go above and beyond educating themselves. If you think they are now frustrated and unhappy, I can't help you. In fact at the end, it doesn't matter what I say to you, you won't listen and it doesn't matter anyway. You will never change my opinion of what Malkinius said, and quite frankly, I'm very capable of understanding what he said without your "assistance." I didn't like what he said, and you don't like what I said. I'm grown up enough to deal with that as a difference of opinion. Are you?

OrionTheWolf -> RE: different loves? (5/24/2009 7:05:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady While it may be admirable for you to jumpt to his defense, there isn't a lot of misinterpretation to the general public about what he was saying. So you are the General Public's spokesperson? Didn't see anyone else going off like you. quote: He has consistently implied that those of us who don't follow the rules as he does are "playing." No he stated that there are some that want to turn it off and on, and he has called it playing. So what word would you use for those that just do it on occasion? Why are they called play sessions? quote: It was insulting then, it is insulting now, and it will continue to be insulting regardless of how you try to spin it. If you took it personal, then maybe you should dig into yourself and try to figure out why. If Malkinius wants to unsult you, it will not be with veiled comments, I can assure you of that. quote: Further, the idea that he is that way to protect someone from harm or death? Because why? Someone who finds out they aren't cut out to be a slave will be physically injured or killed by some master? It makes no sense, and neither he or you has bothered to provide an example of how this would be. He or I provided an example? Sorry but I was speaking of the general idea he was putting across. I guess we could spend 10 or 20 posts, dissecting words and playing semantics, but it appears you need a grindstone for your axe, and not giving you more than this post. quote: Please tell me where above I called the Gorean culture ridiculous. Did I claim you did, or is it a defensive nature kicking in again? quote: You quote Malkinius above, yet he clearly stated that most of "us" are "playing." Have you asked for clarification on what he means by playing? People that assume roles for a short period, and then take on a different role for the rest of the time, are playing. I thought that was some of the point of BDSM. That does not mean that all people are players. If someone is donning a role that is not natural for them, then they are what? quote: The interpretation is that while we define our roles within our relationship, from HIS perspective, there is only one true way, and "our" definations are "just fancy titles" we picked up somewhere. Seemed clear to me that he was stating his opinion, just I am stating mine, and you are stating yours. All opinions are valid, as an opinion. If you wish to assume that he is stating facts, then again I suggest you find out why you jump to such a conclussion. quote: It's insulting to the men on this site that I would call wonderful masters, but don't subscribe to his belief. Regardless, I never called your way of "being" ridiculous. I said that saying there is only "one, true, way" is ridiculous. Yeah I know what you said, because I read it. As far as being insulting, again you are choosing to take it that way. Would you say that all of the men on this site would make wonderful Masters? quote: quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf As a Gorean, Malkinius used terminology that anyone that understood the Gorean Morality, would also understand. It is easy to see though how it could cause the perception you are getting. Dominant and submissive are adjetives in the Gorean culture, and not nouns. Malkinius tried to use those words, to draw a distinction between those that do the TPE 24/7, and those that reserve it for just play time. It appears he was doing nothing more and nothing less. I won't pretend I "understand" the Gorean Morality, nor will I pretend I have a desire to (If I want to learn about it I will ask my questions to someone whose answers I would respect). This post is not in the Gorean forum, and if it were I would never have seen it, nor posted to the thread. Since the Gorean Culture is something you learned at a later point in life, you learned the ability to communicate effectively with the rest of the world first. I was attempting to explain, not excuse. You appear to just be looking for an argument. You also made some incorrect assumptions in these comments that are insulting, because you have explained them in a way that does not match how I communicate. Should I jump down your throat for insulting me, or should I try and work with you on correcting the miscommunication? Which did you do? quote: Again you are defending his language when he was indeed quite clear. Those who are able to laugh, communicate and discuss in a different way than he, or you, feels is appropriate for an M/s relationship is just playing. To imply that peppermint or breathasone don't have the proper M/s relationship is presumptious, pompous and ignorant. You sure got more out of that than I did. No defense was offered. IT IS CALLED EXPLANATION. You know where you try and improve communication and understanding. Maybe you don't. quote: What they have may not meet his or your definitions, but you aren't in THEIR relationship, so it doesn't matter. What I HAVE found about many Goreans and what I WILL say about Goreans is that this "holier than thou" attitude is what tends to alienate you from the general community, and if, as you all claim, your beliefs are based on morals and ethics, then you would realize that such an attitude does not garner respect and certainly never appears dignified. IronBear was very active in the Gorean way of life for a long time and never posts on this board being demeaning or undignified in any way, and the respect that others show to him comes from that. So when you or others go on and on about the Gorean "whatever" with such pompous, presumptious, undignified responses, do you really not understand why people react the way they do? Do not mistake a "holier than thou" attitude with complete confidence in one's self. I am not pompous, I am arrogant. get that straight. Not sure why you want to drag IronBear into this. I also did not go on and on about anything, other than your post, so that is just bullshit commentary, and your motives are starting to show. quote: quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf You seem to have gotten caught up on the terminology that Malkinius used, and missed the excellent point her was making. Maybe I can make it a little more simply. People should know themselves, and be what they are capable of being. To try and make yourself something beyond your means and nature, will lead to frustration and unhappiness. Live well, Orion First of all, I didn't miss any point Malkinius was making. I disagreed with what he said and clearly stated why. Perceptions differ. quote: As for people never looking to be beyond their means or nature? Get a grip. Have a very good grip, thanks. quote: Everyday, people strive to achieve everything they can to make their lives better, to become something people tell them they can't. Have you noticed, we have our first multi-racial president? I'm sure growing up, many told him that was beyond his "means and nature." People go above and beyond educating themselves. If you think they are now frustrated and unhappy, I can't help you. In fact at the end, it doesn't matter what I say to you, you won't listen and it doesn't matter anyway. You will never change my opinion of what Malkinius said, and quite frankly, I'm very capable of understanding what he said without your "assistance." I didn't like what he said, and you don't like what I said. I'm grown up enough to deal with that as a difference of opinion. Are you? There is much more than opinions that are different, but I will leave that as an inside joke for whoever gets it. You clearly state no matter what, that you are correct, and only your opinion is the one true way. Very nicely put. Have a nice day.

LafayetteLady -> RE: different loves? (5/24/2009 10:40:35 PM)
I am a part of the General Population, and I have no axe to grind. Other people commented on what he said as well, they just didn't go into the same amount of detail that I did, and some did. You will continue to read and interpret Malkinius' post the way you choose. Statements that require interpretation for any reason are examples of the inability to effectively communicate. However, I don't think he was saying "some people play." I do believe he was saying that people who claim to have M/s relationship but have a discussion where "sir" and "slave" isn't bandied about are not really doing this full time. I am probably more self aware than a great many people, and have no need to try to "figure out why" I, or others, found the statement insulting. Examples of how his statements protect someone from damage or death? He made an acclamation, and all I have asked was for some evidence of how this was so because his statements did not back up the premise that it would protect others from "damage or death." Give up on the whole axe to grind thing. I state my opinions, which obviously offend you and so in a childish manner you choose to say I have an axe to grind. This was a post about someone who was finding their relationship continually unfufilling. My statement was and remains that regardless of the "style" of slavery she was practicing, the situation she described did not sound like a healthy one and she should leave. This wasn't a "bad day" or a "bad week." I advised her to fully evaluate whether there could be a way to prevent this guy from stepping over her lying injured on the floor and if the answer was "no," then she should leave. THIS advice insterestingly enough CAN protect her from damage or death. Perhaps you meant to make a general statement of what is or is not "ridiculous" in the Gorean Slavery. If I misinterpreted it, than I do apologize. It isn't a self defense mechanism, it is the desire for people to at least quote me properly. DO NOT make the assumption that at any time I feel a need to defend myself against my own statements. Nothing could be further from the truth. People who take on "play partners" do not typically refer to each other as "master" and "slave" other than for the moment. Again, it was very clear that he was talking about people with ongoing relationships. If he wasn't, after mine and other's statements, it was up to him to clarify if we misunderstood what he said. He didn't. Also to be clear, even people who engage in casual play rarely take on the role of the other side. They remain in the role they are comfortable with, to quote you, "that comes natural" to them. We all have opinions. I can back up every opinion I have with facts. So if I naturally conclude that other's when making definitive statements do the same, it is because I DO have high standards and expect others should as well. I would never say that all men on this site would make wonderful masters. I will say that many men on this site present themselves as wonderful masters. That doesn't mean they would be wonderful for ME, or for anyone other than their partner. They became wonderful masters because they started out as good men. That is the very least that would be required to start on the road to being a wonderful master. Your basic run of the mill jack ass isn't likely to ever be a good, let alone wonderful master. They must at least start with a concept of honor and integrity, regardless of the "style" they choose to adopt. Wouldn't you agree? My bread and butter in the real world comes from my ability to communicate effectively. As I stated, I realize that the Gorean population has their own way of communicating and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. But when something is on the "general" board, communicating in the Gorean style is never going to be effective or clear to the "general" population. This isn't like you were trying to translate from Chinese. You learned the "general" way of communicating before Gorean style. To me it is odd that YOU felt you needed to explain someone else's statements. I was comparing your method of communication with IronBear's. I have a great deal of respect for him and he knows that. I'm sure you are aware of his activities and expertise withing the Gorean lifestyel? For the record, you will find the definition of arrogance below. Being arrogant is not something to be proud of. Trust me, you needn't point out to anyone that you are arrogant. The fact that you seem to be proud of it says more about you than any other words you state. ar·ro·gant 1 : exaggerating or disposed to exaggerate one's own worth or importance often by an overbearing manner <an arrogant official> This really says it all doesn't it?

NihilusZero -> RE: different loves? (5/25/2009 12:03:36 AM)
"Love" is perhaps the most useless and misleading term to be used in romantic interaction. It projects expectation of one's self onto another usually without coupling it with properly thorough explanations and emotional disclosure. It's a cheap way of telling someone that they mean something to you without really telling them why or how they mean something to you. It's a word often used to fantasize the relationship to where making sensible decisions (like assessing your happiness in the relationship) is forfeited because of the circular logic that a magical prettiness exists in the relationship because you used a word that's supposed to imply magical prettiness. Returning the the original post...if the term "love" means to you that he has a inner happy place that you rest in yet it does not affect whether his actions reflect it and he treats you negatively, then you have no excuse to be upset...since that's presumably what you want from the relationship. If the term "love" means to you that he should be acting in a way that reflects that supposed inner happy place, then obviously what you have there isn't "love". Depending on how you define your concept of the word, it may help provide you insight as to how to move forward in the situation you're in.

NihilusZero -> RE: different loves? (5/25/2009 12:16:25 AM)
Trying to catch up on some of these side tangents: quote: ORIGINAL: Malkinius Face it. Most people are not cut out to be a slave or to Master a slave. This is what Doms and subs are for. quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady Which brings into play the ridiculous concept that there is "one, true, accepted" way of being any of those titles. There isn't. Along with other minor issue people seem to be addressing with Malkinius, it's a matter of semantic presupposition. For instance, (above) his comment isn't about "one true way", it's about the general consensus that M/s relationships take on a greater degree of power exchange (all the way to TPE) than D/s relationships. Whether "cut out to be" is an accurate appraisal is questionable (just because the phrase implies a negative connotation to those incapable of greater exchange), but I think the point being made is that there is a greater degree of surrender and acceptance of that surrender is both rarer and more basically psychologically vulnerable.

TEMPERANCE -> RE: different loves? (5/25/2009 4:46:56 AM)
I was recently in a kind of relationship with someone, it was a casual affair and was never going to go into a relationship, i knew this and in fact it was i who stipulated this at the begining. After some time the other person simply blew me away with what he could do to me... so much so that i really started to feel for him, it was probably more lust than love but it was a pretty intense feeling and one that caused me great angst... all i could do was think about him and why was it he never behaved in a certain way towards me... basically i wanted him to care for me as much as i felt myself caring for him. I discussed this with a wise old friend of mine who made me see some form of sense..... i had began to confuse vanilla feelings the feeling of love with my D/s submissive feelings... yes i can love and devote myself to him but it is unfair to put my needs on to him and expect him to meet these without first discussing what these needs were. As others have said if you are in a relationship as a slave then that is your role and its a tad unrealistic for you to move the boundaries of that relationship without first discussing it with your Master. If he was seeing and using you as a slave then he is not in the wrong, despite the fact he does seem to be a bit of a lazy sod. Its difficult to be one thing and try to seperate this from our vanilla emotions... there is nothing i would love more in this world for the Gentleman i was seeing to declare his feelings for me, for us to run away and live happily ever after in a cosy home with a cosy life... but in reality it just isnt going to happen, so i either take it and enjoy it for what it is, or i walk away and look for something else whch will better meet my needs in the long run, and im currently still trying to work out what is the best thing to do.....

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