RE: Reward Versus Punishment (Full Version)

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cpK69 -> RE: Reward Versus Punishment (5/21/2009 9:05:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

quote:

Punishment can be a confusing concept. With parents, it is revenge for not being able to get one’s kids to do what they want.


It is? Where do you get that sweeping statement from?
 



You asked “where do you get that sweeping statement from?” the answer to that question is, from my observations as someone’s kid, and as an adult.

I suspect, however, what you meant to ask is, how I came to that conclusion. Yes?

First, let me point out, as I already mentioned, some people discipline, but call it punishment.

Actual punishment makes the ‘offender’ feel bad about themselves; “You were bad, so now…”, and does little, if anything, to address the behavior/perspective that led to an undesired action, Also, it is often done in anger.

My thinking toward the subject came from considering the words of those who respond to threads about punishment saying, they are adults; therefore, do not need to be punished. My immediate response to such statements, “even as a kid, I did not need to be punished.”

I took the time to try and understand it form their perspective, then compared my experiences as a child, with what I have going on with Sir, and realized; my parents punished, Sir, disciplines.

I limited my statement to my intimate experiences, but upon thinking about it, it seems to me, law enforcement is pretty much the same thing.

My apologies if I was too vague in my previous response.

Kim





NihilusZero -> RE: Reward Versus Punishment (5/21/2009 9:42:07 AM)

When I've used punishment, it hasn't been as a motivational tool directly or as a means to "correct" behavior on a purely superficial level. Usually it's a mutually-entered catharsis of emotional disclosure. Meaning...the punishment is a way to share a projected empathy...and the punishment is intended to convey (by the harshness of it) how wounded/hurt/betrayed I felt by an action. At the same time, it's not just a matter of one-sided retribution...I don't like hurting those I care about (not talking about play-pain here). The purpose is so that, in a situation of vulnerability and emotional (almost ritualistic) connection, we both enter a place where we're learning about each other: the sub/slave about how the hurt feels internally for me, and I about the genuine remorse the sub/slave feels; the ideal experience resulting in mutually clingy, tender downtime.

I'm not saying that such a means is a replacement for also talking about the incident(s)...but I view it very similarly to how I've used my art (photography) to express emotions I've had bottled up at times, rather than just talking about it with people. Sometimes having a very tangible and tactile outlet through which emotions can be released is a purging thing.



NihilusZero -> RE: Reward Versus Punishment (5/21/2009 9:45:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69

You asked “where do you get that sweeping statement from?” the answer to that question is, from my observations as someone’s kid, and as an adult.

I suspect, however, what you meant to ask is, how I came to that conclusion. Yes?

First, let me point out, as I already mentioned, some people discipline, but call it punishment.

Actual punishment makes the ‘offender’ feel bad about themselves; “You were bad, so now…”, and does little, if anything, to address the behavior/perspective that led to an undesired action, Also, it is often done in anger.

My thinking toward the subject came from considering the words of those who respond to threads about punishment saying, they are adults; therefore, do not need to be punished. My immediate response to such statements, “even as a kid, I did not need to be punished.”

I took the time to try and understand it form their perspective, then compared my experiences as a child, with what I have going on with Sir, and realized; my parents punished, Sir, disciplines.

I limited my statement to my intimate experiences, but upon thinking about it, it seems to me, law enforcement is pretty much the same thing.

My apologies if I was too vague in my previous response.

Kim


Just to add my $.02 to this part of the topic...I too draw a distinct line between punishment of a child and the use in a D/s relationship and agree with the "it is revenge for not being able to get one’s kids to do what they want" assessment when used with children.

A kid does not consensually enter into a dynamic where there is a potential expectation of corporal punishment for an error.



Fitznicely -> RE: Reward Versus Punishment (5/21/2009 9:51:37 AM)

cpK69...given your explanation, would it not have been more prudent to say something along the lines of "I've been thinking about it, and I think the word 'discipline' would be more appropriate"?

As it is, I think you're right. I don't 'punish' in anger, and I don't think any Dom should, so I agree that discipline is certainly a better word for what we're describing.



oceanwinds -> RE: Reward Versus Punishment (5/21/2009 9:55:23 AM)

quote]ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

When I've used punishment, it hasn't been as a motivational tool directly or as a means to "correct" behavior on a purely superficial level. Usually it's a mutually-entered catharsis of emotional disclosure. Meaning...the punishment is a way to share a projected empathy...and the punishment is intended to convey (by the harshness of it) how wounded/hurt/betrayed I felt by an action. At the same time, it's not just a matter of one-sided retribution...I don't like hurting those I care about (not talking about play-pain here). The purpose is so that, in a situation of vulnerability and emotional (almost ritualistic) connection, we both enter a place where we're learning about each other: the sub/slave about how the hurt feels internally for me, and I about the genuine remorse the sub/slave feels; the ideal experience resulting in mutually clingy, tender downtime.

I'm not saying that such a means is a replacement for also talking about the incident(s)...but I view it very similarly to how I've used my art (photography) to express emotions I've had bottled up at times, rather than just talking about it with people. Sometimes having a very tangible and tactile outlet through which emotions can be released is a purging thing.

[/quote]

Thank you for expressing this aspect of punishment from a Dom.'s view. Those were similiar to words used by Sir after the punishment  used on me, and nice to see another could word this as well. It was not for me to word for him, so was happy to read it here.



cpK69 -> RE: Reward Versus Punishment (5/21/2009 10:01:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

A kid does not consensually enter into a dynamic where there is a potential expectation of corporal punishment for an error.



This was something else I had considered, but forgot to add. With Sir, I can choose to walk away; there will be consiquence, but still; as a kid, I was trapped.

I’m confused, Nihilus. Could you please tell me your perspective of the difference, if any, between punishment and discipline? (adult version)

(Even if it is on the other side, as not to disrupt the thread.)

Kim



leadership527 -> RE: Reward Versus Punishment (5/21/2009 10:06:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69
I took the time to try and understand it form their perspective, then compared my experiences as a child, with what I have going on with Sir, and realized; my parents punished, Sir, disciplines.

Wow! 100pts! :)

Yeah, as I think on it, I certainly enforce discipline with Carol. Or, more accurately, I've setup the expecation that she is to be self-disciplined. But yes, there are rules and they get followed and as I noted, there is consequence to not following them. Even if the consequence is as small as, "I won't use the word slave in regards you anymore" and the only reason she even cares about that is she knows it pleases me to use it... even then, it is a consequence and therefor disciplinary in nature.

I have to admit that it astonishes me that that thin thread of reasoning is enough to get her to obey even the seriously seriously hard commands. The implication is that her desire to please me... even in so small a thing as some sort of label/conceptual cateogry... is almost more than I can imagine. Then again, maybe that isn't so surprising afterall. Strictly for the purpose of getting her into an environment I believe will be more conducive to her mental health and growth as an artist I'm buying an entire house and moving to another country. That, I guess, in the end, is what makes it work for us.

As I think this through even more, I'm coming to realize that of course we have both positive and negative incentives (rewards and punishments). It's just for us, our partner's global level of happiness serves that function quite adequately without the need to layer on additional things. If I am not pleased, Carol is punished and pretty much remains punished until I'm pleased. The same is true of me in reverse. That all happens automatically and by our own hand so I hadn't really thought of it in terms of reward and punishment.



cpK69 -> RE: Reward Versus Punishment (5/21/2009 10:24:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

Wow! 100pts! :)


Yea! 100pts! Wonder if I can save these points and barder for a vacation/outing to other locations… Cali, Cancun... Canada, perhaps.

I guess I never really think of the rewards as rewards; they are sort of built in.

“Do you want to suck my cock?”
“Yes, Sir.”
“You may ask.”
“Sir, may I please such your cock?”
“I don’t think you really meant it.”
“May I, pleeease, suck your cock, Sir?!?”
“You may.”
*Yea me! Hey…*

Damn, he’s good.[:D]

Kim



breatheasone -> RE: Reward Versus Punishment (5/21/2009 8:31:29 PM)

quote:

With parents, it is revenge for not being able to get one’s kids to do what they want.


i raised 3 kids, and have 2 grandchildren, and i have NO idea what the heck you are even talking about here......



MarcEsadrian -> RE: Reward Versus Punishment (5/22/2009 6:33:57 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonKia
I get the punishment thing as role play, but I don't get it as a useful relationship tool.


That would depend entirely upon the nature of the relationship. Most of the time I answer questions in this forum in reference to M/s, not 50/50 romantic pursuits or sensual role playing. Speaking to the M/s dynamic specifically, putting emphasis on positives (as you point out) is without a doubt very effective as a teaching and conditioning tool, but there are times when punishment—real actual physical or emotional pain—can be useful as a memory aid for humans, if they are in the correct frame of mind in receiving it (a much deeper subject for another conversation entirely, perhaps). I realize the notion of "punishment" is often nothing more than a prop for the crop among many "D/s" hobbyists, but for a select number the concept goes well beyond role playing.

I would say the effectiveness of both punishment and reward, like most things in life, is directly correlative to how serious both parties take the authority dynamic and structure of their relationship. If it's all an elaborate sham simply to get off, the dominance and submission, along with the "punishments and rewards", are only skin deep. Or to borrow from the tired computer science maxim, Garbage In, Garbage Out.



cpK69 -> RE: Reward Versus Punishment (5/22/2009 10:07:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: breatheasone

quote:

With parents, it is revenge for not being able to get one’s kids to do what they want.


i raised 3 kids, and have 2 grandchildren, and i have NO idea what the heck you are even talking about here......


Intersting, there could be a number of reasons for that.

However, I am fairly possitive my parents wouldn't either; and I was there, so I know what happened with that situation.

Kim



IronBear -> RE: Reward Versus Punishment (5/22/2009 11:11:36 AM)

Granted I have only read the first page but, I already see a good amount of stuff well worthy of taking notice of.

I'm rather old fashion and traditional in some areas, especially the dynamic I have with whoever is collared to either the home or to myself (and thus a part pf the home). Punishment is just that. I punish for deliberate infractions such as disobedience, rudeness and so on. It would rarely happen because if the offence is that serious I would need to review the reasons and if the relationship was fractured. Having said that, seeing that dismissal is the ultimate punishment in my book there are other forms of punishment which serve better than a beating. I'm not a great believer in giving lines to write, unless it serves a productive end. However, I can find a myriad of chores to add to the work load and at the same time restrict TV or Computer Time so additional chores can be done then (double punishment if you like but very effective.

Let's look at why punishment seems to be given, chores or tasks are either not done or not completed correctly. because I do believe in communications regarding all such things, I tend to find that a task incorrectly done brings some of the blame back to me because either I have not taught the slave how to do it properly, I have given less than enough information, or I have failed to check that said slave actually understands everything or has been either too scared to ask for clarification (That I hope rarely happens), or slave is to embarrassed to ask. When such things happen and they do, my response is retraining and checking that the recipient now knows what is required. I insist on being asked for clarification when in doubt. I can forgive the first mistake and even a second one but I need to have a serious discussion with any one who make the same mistake three times. I may have a slave under those circumstances who is incapable of training in that area (if the salve is fine in other areas and duties then it is of little consequence and easy fixed even if I have to pick up the slack which often happens anyway), a slave who basically is refusing to do that task (no place for someone like that in Bruin Cottage) or a slave who needs a carer and not a Master. If I have a slave who is screwing up in the hope of punishment, i.e. a beating I will not beat her but give her the most onerous task I can find after informing her, that if she so desperately wants a good flogging she can beg for it.
Rewards will be given as deserved and may range from a simple acknowledgement of something well done such as "I am well pleased lass.", "You have pleased me with this", "I am proud of you for your efforts" (In special cases). I may prepare a favourite dish or desert for a reward or allow the slave to go shopping with Neets with a few additional dollars for her to spend.. I have also found that possibly the second worst punishment for a slave if for him or her to know they displeased me or that I am disappointed in them.



dreamerdreaming -> RE: Reward Versus Punishment (5/22/2009 12:14:11 PM)

My slave and I don't have a punishment/reward dynamic. I would not take a slave who required it, because it just doesn't fit my needs. I need a willfully obedient slave. So I chose one. He is very obedient and compliant to my will.

Since he does not purposely disobey me, the mistakes he makes just need to be corrected, not punished. A few times I've had him write me a few paragraphs detailing how the mistake happened to begin with, what he should have done instead, and what he do next time a similiar kind of circumstance arises, to avoid a recurrence. I do also ask him what I can do to help.

Now funishment is another matter entirely, and is yummy for us both. [:)]


Our relationship is based on self- actualization, or self-realization. On addressing our needs and desires, for our mutual fulfillment. Becoming more and more our authentic selves, with each new day.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_hierarchy_of_needs 

If people (whether or not they share our goals) find that a punishment/reward dynamic works for them, then that's great! I'm just saying that for my slaveboy and I, its not our thang. Funishment, yes!  [:)]
Not punishment.

I also don't reward him. We just treat each other very well, as a rule. We are attentive to one another's needs and desires. That's what works, for us.



CreativeDominant -> RE: Reward Versus Punishment (5/22/2009 12:17:09 PM)

I've answered similar questions in other threads before on here but there's always a new way to look at something.  For me, the new way here is the idea of punishment vs. rewards.  While I recognize the concept, I see a problem with the idea of punishment VS. rewards.  When applied incorrectly, it teaches that a person should receive a reward (which is a treat) for doing what they signed up to do in a proper fashion and that punishment (something bad) awaits if they can't hoe the line.  I don't like that idea and I don't like the ease with which one could fall into that trap.  My kids received rewards when they had done something over and above-board or when something they worked very hard on, with purpose and a goal in mind, turned out better than expected.  They didn't receive punishment for not going over and above-board all the time nor did they receive punishment when something they'd worked hard on didn't turn out well through no fault (or minimal fault) of theirs...e.g., when my u.m. did a "group" paper and the group got a "collective" F (something I fought the school over, BTW as I don't believe in "collective" work/punishment/reward at any level but that's another thread), she didn't receive punishment from me.  Hell, I had read her paper and I know the work she put in (part of the reason for me raising hell at the school over her "collective" F)...why would I punish her for the faults of others?  But...when my kids did step out of line deliberately...e.g., sneaking out of the window to go off with an 18 yr. old when she was 13...yes, she was punished and no, it was not revenge for not being able to get her to obey me.  My kids were taught early on that there are consequences for any kind of behavior, be it good behavior or bad behavior and that the responsibility for their behavior was on them.  I taught and I gave them examples and I made adjustments of everything to their level but I was not one of those parents who laid all of the parent-child dynamic on myself or on my ex, with us taking all the blame when things went wrong and the ums taking all the credit when things went right.

Like Iron Bear, I am traditional in many ways though I am sure our styles are quite different.  I've become more so in the last 10 years.  I deal with an adult when I am dealing with a submissive.  I expect her to have already learned throughout her life that if one is willing to take a chance on behaving in a certain way, then one also has to be willing to take the consequences...good or bad...of that behavior.
In D/s, the power exchange is equal but the structure of the dynamic is not.  I've given examples before of the equality that can be found within the equality of a D/s dynamic...here is one place where I show my belief in the inequality that can be found within the equality.  I mete out discipline and, for really serious infractions or continuing---despite disciplinary measures instituted (and agreed to at the beginning of the dynamic) to weed out bad behaviors--- minor infractions, punishment.  These are not done for play of any sort...that kind of deal is encompassed by "funishment" which is something else entirely and discussed on earlier threads.
The purpose of discipline is to teach and correct unwanted behavior in a constructive manner and that these types of behaviors disappoint because they are destructive to the submissive, the dominant, and the dynamic.   The purpose of punishment is to reinforce that belief when discipline and disappointment have...apparently...failed and have not been enough to change the submissive's behavior to a more positive bent.  In the last two dynamics I was involved in, the need for discipline became less and less frequent, therefore making the rare occasions for punishment even more rare.  But that doesn't mean that it did not occur.  At the end of the day though, I disciplined and punished...she did not.  Not that I am infallible but the dynamic is NOT a 50/50 deal nor is it a vanilla relationship.



breatheasone -> RE: Reward Versus Punishment (5/22/2009 2:09:03 PM)

Oh now see....thats just yummy! i totally need to steal that word(funishment)....can i please?[:)]



dreamerdreaming -> RE: Reward Versus Punishment (5/22/2009 2:47:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: breatheasone

Oh now see....thats just yummy! i totally need to steal that word(funishment)....can i please?[:)]


Yeah that's been around for a while. I didn't come up with it. Maybe LuckyAlbatross did- she's so wise. Where is she lately? [8|]

My slave recites every morning in his creed that he consents for me to punish him with or without cause, however I like. I could punish him, in the true sense of the word, just as the creed states. But in it, we are really referring to "funishment"- not actual punishment.



offeredup -> RE: Reward Versus Punishment (5/22/2009 4:15:40 PM)

When my kids were young, Dr. Spock wrote my generation's bible for child rearing. (That's DOCTOR Spock, not MISTER Spock!) That meant forgoing spanking, even though we had the right, and using reason and motivation as much as humanly possible over coercion and punishment.  Often, for example during their "terrible twos" and "terrible tweens" I mused how easy it would be if i could just allow myself to take a paddle to the little darlings.  We resorted to punishment (non-corporeal) on rare occasions and it always felt like failure because i'd run out of solution. Mostly their mother and I stuck with good old Spocky. Bottom line: It was harder and often took much more creativity and patience, but in the long run it worked. The kids grew into fine, dilligent, considerate, compassionate, smart adults -- each wonderful in his or her own way, and we have good memories and good relations today. 
Punishment is a poor teacher. It's fixing a watch with a hammer.
"Funishment," on the other hand, is golden in a D/s relationship, and isn't --- by the way -- trivial. It's delicious when done richly with commitment -- with elements of pretend, but never fake. Good actors move us when they believe in their roles and make their actions meaningful, even though we all know it's just a play or a movie.  




offeredup -> RE: Reward Versus Punishment (5/22/2009 4:25:12 PM)

Well said, Dreamer.

Moreover, separation is punishment for the slave who adores his or her mistress or master. Anything that offends or otherwise creates conflict in a relationship puts distance between the people in it. That can be very painful, whereas intimacy rewards more deeply. No need to superimpose artificial incentives and deterrents upon that.



breatheasone -> RE: Reward Versus Punishment (5/22/2009 4:33:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dreamerdreaming

quote:

ORIGINAL: breatheasone

Oh now see....thats just yummy! i totally need to steal that word(funishment)....can i please?[:)]


Yeah that's been around for a while. I didn't come up with it. Maybe LuckyAlbatross did- she's so wise. Where is she lately? [8|]

My slave recites every morning in his creed that he consents for me to punish him with or without cause, however I like. I could punish him, in the true sense of the word, just as the creed states. But in it, we are really referring to "funishment"- not actual punishment.


Agreed. i liked when she would slap me around on the boards, if i had my head up my ass! In a strange yet exciting way[;)] LOL



LadyPact -> RE: Reward Versus Punishment (5/22/2009 9:55:46 PM)

After reading the question and some of the replies, hopefully, I'll add something worth while.

In this dynamic, both punishment and reward are based on My expectations.  Before anyone gets huffy about the way I phrased that, let Me say that My expectations are clearly spelled out.  This is part of the process that I go through before a collar is ever even given any thought.  It's the same process that helps to determine compatibility and whether a sub will fit with Me in a D/s dynamic.  It's not a case of Me springing anything on anyone.

With that said, punishment is not something that I feel I should have to use often.  If a punishment is warranted, I am absolutely going to be looking at the compatibility factor again.  If the boy knows what I expect, and failed to comply, there is an underlying issue.  In My view, if I'm punishing about something, the dynamic is probably in trouble.

I do not punish for mistakes and I do not expect My sub to be perfect.  I also don't punish for silly things.  Something like willful disobedience, especially after there's been a warning....  You bet your ass.  I'd also like to add that I do not punish for the same thing twice.  If something is a constant offense, I am more likely to consider it an incompatibility, and the dynamic is over.

On to reward.  Again, this is based on My expectations.  When they are met, or a boy goes over and above them, I am happy to reward.  Yes, it is usually something play related.  For example, clip loves liquid latex.  It doesn't really do much for Me (I'm not opposed, it just doesn't trip My trigger) but I'm happy to indulge him by incorporating that into play for his enjoyment.  This is something over and above the positive reinforcement that I try to give on a regular basis.



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