A great big "Oh, HELL no!"

A great big "Oh, HELL no!" (Full Version)

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TheHeretic -> A great big "Oh, HELL no!" (5/20/2009 9:22:38 PM)
For those who think President Obama's 53% was a landslide, please have a look at what a landslide really looks like. http://vote.sos.ca.gov/returns/props/map1A.htm As goes California, so goes the nation, or so we are often told. What happened in CA yesterday is something the PTB should pay a lot of attention to. More taxes, more borrowing, more "creative" financing, all were overwhelmingly rejected by the people. The only measure that passed was a salary freeze on the legislature, anytime there is a budget deficit. 77% voted yes on that, and I suspect part of what little opposition there was to that, was people who just voted "no" straight down the line. This wasn't supposed to happen. The fix was in. Governator Girlyman made the state Repubs donate a big chunk of money to the "yes" campaign. The teachers union was in. So were the prison guards (at over $100 grand a year, they like the status quo). The language of the measure on the ballot completely failed to mention increased taxes. We were supposed to rubber stamp more of the same old bullshit from the capital. Instead, they got a 2/3 "NO!" Just a little tax revolt, in a place that tends to set the trends. The Republicans aren't going to miss what happened here, but I bet the Democrats get it completely wrong. For those with no clue at all what I'm talking about, here is a link to the voter information on 1a - 1f in California's special election on May 19.

kittinSol -> RE: A great big "Oh, HELL no!" (5/21/2009 5:20:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic The Republicans aren't going to miss what happened here, but I bet the Democrats get it completely wrong. Last year, you also made the bet that the Democrats would lose the presidential election [8\|] .

TheHeretic -> RE: A great big "Oh, HELL no!" (5/21/2009 6:37:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic The Republicans aren't going to miss what happened here, but I bet the Democrats get it completely wrong. Last year, you also made the bet that the Democrats would lose the presidential election [8\|] . Link please, Kitten? I don't recall ever taking my wallet out of my pocket on that, nor did I ever actually predict the outcome. Perhaps you are thinking of when I called the Repub VP nominee a week before she was announced?

Mercnbeth -> RE: A great big "Oh, HELL no!" (5/21/2009 7:57:15 AM)
quote: We believe there are three unintended consequences from states raising tax rates on the rich. First, some rich residents sell their homes and leave the state; second, those who stay in the state report less taxable income on their tax returns; and third, some rich people choose not to locate in a high-tax state. Since many rich people also tend to be successful business owners, jobs leave with them or they never arrive in the first place. This is why high income-tax states have such a tough time creating net new jobs for low-income residents and college graduates. Those who disapprove of tax competition complain that lower state taxes only create a zero-sum competition where states "race to the bottom" and cut services to the poor as taxes fall to zero. They say that tax cutting inevitably means lower quality schools and police protection as lower tax rates mean starvation of public services. They're wrong, and New Hampshire is our favorite illustration. The Live Free or Die State has no income or sales tax, yet it has high-quality schools and excellent public services. Students in New Hampshire public schools achieve the fourth-highest test scores in the nation -- even though the state spends about $1,000 a year less per resident on state and local government than the average state and, incredibly, $5,000 less per person than New York. And on the other side of the ledger, California in 2007 had the highest-paid classroom teachers in the nation, and yet the Golden State had the second-lowest test scores. TAX THE RICH = GOODBYE TO RICH HIGHER SALES TAX = LOWER REVENUE! quote: California Income Tax Revenue Drops 44% In April (Year-Over-Year) "They just posted the [California Income Tax Tracker] results for April 30. For the full month of April, income tax receipts were $7.336B. For April 2008, the total was $12.995B. This is a 44% decline. The fiscal YTD is down 20%. I suspect that the April numbers reflect actual tax returns that show lower incomes and more refunds than April 2008. But it also must indicate that wages/incomes are dropping at an accelerating pace." quote: The Obama Administration is interceding in ways that make the situation in California even worse. Barack Obama is trying to block cuts in wages for unionized state workers Guess what the Obama Administration is doing? It is telling Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger that it will revoke nearly $7 billion in federal stimulus money unless the state restores legislated wage cuts for unionized health-care workers. Obama's loyalty is toward the public sector and the unions. He also wants an immigration amnesty that will legalize illegals and make them eligible for more social programs. Plus, the amnesty will only accelerate illegal migration and he'll probably push for more legal immigration. Obama makes California's long term problems worse.

Cagey18 -> RE: A great big "Oh, HELL no!" (5/21/2009 9:55:46 AM)
Clearly a revolution in the making [sm=rofl.gif][sm=rofl.gif] The GOP is going to lose--AGAIN--in 2010. And again in 2012. Get used to being on the losing side.

Mezrem -> RE: A great big "Oh, HELL no!" (5/21/2009 10:02:08 AM)
The failure of the measures in Cali are a good and bad thing. It is good to see the people waking up out there. It is bad beause it's going to push us further as a nation in the direction of more bail outs.. this time for a state. Truth me told I would love nothing more then for both the GOP and the DNC to fall on thier collective asses. Perhaps then we can shift more power back to the state level and we an keep a better eye on these ass clowns.

MmeGigs -> RE: A great big "Oh, HELL no!" (5/21/2009 3:32:29 PM)
I don't think that this really means all that much. There are more than 17 million registered voters in California. Fewer than 4 million showed up to vote. The "No" side got the support of 15% of the registered voters, the "Yes" side got the support of about 8%, and the "I don't know/don't care" side got the support of more than 75% of registered voters. Looks to me like the big landslide among those who bothered to show up is something that's completely predictable in a special election where taxes are the issue. What passion there is on this issue exists completely on the "No" side. No one is excited about tax increases, but there are a fair number of folks out there who aren't in favor of cuts and many who understand that the govt does need revenue in order to provide services. And there a heck of a lot of others for whom this isn't an issue that's going to affect them personally, being in the group that won't benefit much from cuts or be harmed much by an increase, and so they just don't care.

Arpig -> RE: A great big "Oh, HELL no!" (5/21/2009 7:21:07 PM)
I think MmeGigs hit the nail on the head. The pitifully small turnout really makes it hard to describe this as a real landslide (as impressive as the maps look). And given the overall apathy (roughly 75% didn't bother voting) I also agree that the results are somewhat of a foregone conclusion

TheHeretic -> RE: A great big "Oh, HELL no!" (5/21/2009 8:03:26 PM)
Low turnout was expected, Gigs. I was sort of surprised when that was the first talking point response the Gov. spouted. The propaganda mill was in full force in support of this. The teachers even tried to stage a one-day strike in support of it (a judge shot them down - something about it being prohibited by their contract). They completely failed to motivate their own base. Not really something to use an excuse; "we lost because we suck at our jobs." Hmm. This set of measures touched a nerve. Those who want to insist it was all just bitter Republicans making a petty gesture should go look at the first link in the OP. The whole Bay Area rejected this. LA County was 68% opposed. These areas aren't exactly hotbeds of conservative philosophy (20% of LA County is on welfare!) What was voted on in CA was the government spending like mad, and hiking taxes constantly. The Repubs aren't going to miss that, but I've got a euro that says the Dems are going to get this completely wrong.

TheHeretic -> RE: A great big "Oh, HELL no!" (5/21/2009 8:17:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig (roughly 75% didn't bother voting) Those turnout percentages are a misleading guide, Arpig. Keep in mind that Americans are pretty apathetic voters in the best of times. Damn near half of us sit out the Presidential elections (56% last fall was the highest in recent times. Obama got a bit over half of those, do the math if you like), 2/3-ish don't vote for our U.S. Representatives in the off years. This is a legitimate sample, and a clear statement.

popeye1250 -> RE: A great big "Oh, HELL no!" (5/21/2009 10:23:42 PM)
What do they estimate the cost to the Taxpayers of California of illegal aliens? It must be enourmous!

TheHeretic -> RE: A great big "Oh, HELL no!" (5/21/2009 11:09:20 PM)
Statewide numbers are hard to come by, Popeye, but LA County welfare pours out $40 million a MONTH in payments to the illegal immigrant parents of kids born here. Schools and jails would be another big number, but not so easy to come by.

Arpig -> RE: A great big "Oh, HELL no!" (5/21/2009 11:37:20 PM)
Yeah, same disappointing trend here as well, we only had a 58% turnout in 2008...kinda sad actually

MmeGigs -> RE: A great big "Oh, HELL no!" (5/22/2009 4:36:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic Those turnout percentages are a misleading guide, Arpig. Not really. More than 13.7 million of the 17 million registered Californians voted last November. Nearly 10 million of those folks didn't bother turning out for this special election. quote: This is a legitimate sample, and a clear statement. The only clear statement I see in these results is that most folks didn't care enough about it to show up. To assume based on this special election that a vast majority of people will jump aboard a "No Taxes" bandwagon would be a big mistake.

TheHeretic -> RE: A great big "Oh, HELL no!" (5/22/2009 6:58:53 AM)
Gigs, I think you are making my case for me about how the Democrats and powers that be are going to really misread what the statement was.

CruelNUnsual -> RE: A great big "Oh, HELL no!" (5/22/2009 7:07:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic Gigs, I think you are making my case for me about how the Democrats and powers that be are going to really misread what the statement was. Theres no question they are, just like they misread the tea partys, aided by a media that wanted to portray it as a bunch of fat old white guys and organized by Fox News.

Sanity -> RE: A great big "Oh, HELL no!" (5/22/2009 10:19:05 PM)
Here are a few snippets from the latest AP article regarding the California Nightmare: quote: California faces its day of fiscal reckoning SACRAMENTO, Calif. – The day of reckoning that California has been warned about for years has arrived. The longest recession in generations and the defeat this week of a package of budget-balancing ballot measures are expected to lead to state spending cuts so deep and so painful that they could rewrite the social contract between California and its citizens. They could also force a fundamental rethinking of the proper role of government in the Golden State. "The voters are getting what they asked for, but I'm not sure at the end of the day they're going to like what they asked for," said Jim Earp, executive director of the California Alliance for Jobs, which represents the hard-hit construction industry. "I think we've crossed a threshold in many ways." California is looking at a budget deficit projected at more than $24 billion when the new fiscal year starts in July. That is more than one-quarter of the state's general fund. <snip> The governor's cutbacks could include ending the state's main welfare program for the poor, eliminating health coverage for about 1.5 million poor children, halting cash grants for about 77,000 college students, shortening the school year by seven days, laying off thousands of state workers and teachers, slashing money for state parks and releasing thousands of prisoners before their sentences are finished. "I understand that these cuts are very painful and they affect real lives," Schwarzenegger said. "This is the harsh reality and the reality that we face. Sacramento is not Washington — we cannot print our own money. We can only spend what we have." <snip> The drastic cuts that appear to lie ahead will, by accident, accomplish the stark reduction in state government that many Republicans have long advocated. "We should have been limiting the growth of government for years," Villines said. <snip> (Full article here). I only wonder where California would eventually end up if they COULD print their own money. Unfortunately, the way things are going, it certainly appears that everyone in the entire United States is fast approaching that very kind of scenario.

CruelNUnsual -> RE: A great big "Oh, HELL no!" (5/22/2009 10:59:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Here are a few snippets from the latest AP article regarding the California Nightmare: quote: California faces its day of fiscal reckoning SACRAMENTO, Calif. – The day of reckoning that California has been warned about for years has arrived. The longest recession in generations and the defeat this week of a package of budget-balancing ballot measures are expected to lead to state spending cuts so deep and so painful that they could rewrite the social contract between California and its citizens. They could also force a fundamental rethinking of the proper role of government in the Golden State. "The voters are getting what they asked for, but I'm not sure at the end of the day they're going to like what they asked for," said Jim Earp, executive director of the California Alliance for Jobs, which represents the hard-hit construction industry. "I think we've crossed a threshold in many ways." California is looking at a budget deficit projected at more than $24 billion when the new fiscal year starts in July. That is more than one-quarter of the state's general fund. <snip> The governor's cutbacks could include ending the state's main welfare program for the poor, eliminating health coverage for about 1.5 million poor children, halting cash grants for about 77,000 college students, shortening the school year by seven days, laying off thousands of state workers and teachers, slashing money for state parks and releasing thousands of prisoners before their sentences are finished. "I understand that these cuts are very painful and they affect real lives," Schwarzenegger said. "This is the harsh reality and the reality that we face. Sacramento is not Washington — we cannot print our own money. We can only spend what we have." <snip> The drastic cuts that appear to lie ahead will, by accident, accomplish the stark reduction in state government that many Republicans have long advocated. "We should have been limiting the growth of government for years," Villines said. <snip> (Full article here). Unfortunately, the way things are going, it certainly appears that everyone in the entire United States is fast approaching that very kind of scenario. And its about time. And California doesnt need to end the "social contract with its citizens", it just needs to end the social contract with illegal aliens.

ienigma777 -> RE: A great big "Oh, HELL no!" (5/23/2009 1:16:54 AM)
What is it with you and 'illegal aliens' ? You slam the hell out of the 'wetbacks' every chance and opportunity you get. Don't you want Mexicans to make a living, like anyone else? OR...is it better to Legally' send US Industries, like the Auto Industry to China, Legally give a Big Ol' Bush Bailout so GM and the like; so they can reinvest, Legally' in building their plants in China, Brazil, and reimporting and selling their junk back to us at higher prices. So a mexican wants a decent living, so, what's it to you? Your Bush sure made sure those CEO's got a decent paycheck...and for failing at their jobs, destroying the economic base of the US and the world; and giving the US industrry to China.

Loki45 -> RE: A great big "Oh, HELL no!" (5/23/2009 1:35:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ienigma777 What is it with you and 'illegal aliens' ? You slam the hell out of the 'wetbacks' every chance and opportunity you get. Don't you want Mexicans to make a living, like anyone else? OR...is it better to Legally' send US Industries, like the Auto Industry to China, Legally give a Big Ol' Bush Bailout so GM and the like; so they can reinvest, Legally' in building their plants in China, Brazil, and reimporting and selling their junk back to us at higher prices. So a mexican wants a decent living, so, what's it to you? Your Bush sure made sure those CEO's got a decent paycheck...and for failing at their jobs, destroying the economic base of the US and the world; and giving the US industrry to China. I think I can field this one, with a bit of a hijack (not that you haven't done that part for me, but whatever). You see, this "better life" the illegals claim to want doesn't come in this country. They live in squalor here, while funneling the money back to their "real home." You see they don't desire to ever BE an American. They only come here to funnel American dollars back to their family down south. At least when businesses go overseas, those people don't try and bullshit us as to a desire for a better life. They call a spade a spade and say its for the company's bottom line....something we all already know. The illegals come here, don't pay income taxes, get free medical care, schooling, etc....in many cases better than the poor who were born here. And all the while the "better life" they are creating is back in their "real home." And in case you wonder why I keep saying "real home" like that...it's because that's how they view it. This is evidenced during their marches when the organizers had to plead with them not to carry mexican flags while they marched, because it didn't help the cause they were marching for if we knew to which country their loyalty truly lied. The majority of Americans welcome immigration......LEGAL immigration. Because when one goes through the trouble of LEGALLY immigrating and LEGALLY becoming a CITIZEN...they acknowledge that this is their new HOME. They don't sneak in and funnel all their money back to another country.

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