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Liberty and What for All? - 5/21/2009 10:53:19 AM

cpK69

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I enjoy doing a lot of thinking about concepts (in case anybody hadn’t noticed). One of my favorites, is justice, and how it relates to humans.

At the same time, I have done a lot of contemplating on what it means to me, to be ‘American’. I had thought I could hang my hat on the motto “liberty and justice for all”, but as of yesterday, I ran into a snag.

The problem being, I had come to the conclusion, liberty is ‘mortal justice'; due to man’s ability to choose.

So now I am wondering, if my assessment is accurate, what is the word ‘justice’ referring to, in that phrase?

Kim

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RE: Liberty and What for All? - 5/21/2009 11:14:49 AM

popeye1250

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69

I enjoy doing a lot of thinking about concepts (in case anybody hadn’t noticed). One of my favorites, is justice, and how it relates to humans.

At the same time, I have done a lot of contemplating on what it means to me, to be ‘American’. I had thought I could hang my hat on the motto “liberty and justice for all”, but as of yesterday, I ran into a snag.

The problem being, I had come to the conclusion, liberty is ‘mortal justice'; due to man’s ability to choose.

So now I am wondering, if my assessment is accurate, what is the word ‘justice’ referring to, in that phrase?

Kim

CP, I like that too but, unlike some in here I don't think of myself as an "intellectual."
I think the phrase, "Liberty and justice for all" applies to all U.S. Citizens only. I doubt the founders wre thinking of *any other country* when they came up with that phrase.
Whether they have "liberty and justice for all" in say,....Norway or Sweden, is beyond the scope of our constitution.
The thing is that it is not our job to "provide" any foreign country or people with, "liberty and justice for all".
I think that it is an uniquely "Amercan" concept that foreign countries can either adopt or not.

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 5/21/2009 11:17:21 AM >

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RE: Liberty and What for All? - 5/21/2009 11:32:20 AM

cpK69

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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

The thing is that it is not our job to "provide" any foreign country or people with, "liberty and justice for all".
I think that it is an uniquely "Amercan" concept that foreign countries can either adopt or not.

I understand what you are saying, and agree, part of liberty is being responsible, anybody who wants it, and cares to maintain it, must do it for themselves.

My query was more for personal use, but as noted; how can I saying I want liberty and justice, when, as I see it, liberty is justice?

Should I just bend over now?

*grins*

Kim

< Message edited by cpK69 -- 5/21/2009 11:33:21 AM >

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RE: Liberty and What for All? - 5/21/2009 12:12:42 PM

ienigma777

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Hi; I feel you are quite accurate with your accessment of the Uniqueness of the Concept of Liberty and Justice for all being an American ideal. With that in mind, being uniquely American....it sort of makes the Bush era, the Iraq war, HomeLand Security, the Patriot act rather anti- american.

Again, your inference, of America imposing it's will in bringing Liberty and justice to countries which the American government percieves as being oppressive to the citizens of that particular country again speaks of the wrongness of the Bush years.

9-11 was a retalitory to an attack, giving the government unquestioned authority to institute severe survellances, (simular to the enabling, emergency powers Hitler sought in WW2 after the burning of the Reightstag).. on the citizens of the US; buried his reasons in the tyranny of Saddam over the oppressed people of Iraq, and Bush's 'Operation Iraq Freedom'.

Well, what's done is done, and will not be undone, our freedoms have been effectively curtailed, and the GOPS still want to completely erroide what is left. Rush Limbaugh will begin his 'replay' of the Clinton years against Obama, and we will be subjected to the GOP neuturing of the Dems. The Power Play is at hand.....instead of helping to heal the wounds of this country, we'll damn sure fight Mr. Obama all the way.

You are correct, Liberty and Justice, is uniquely an American constitutional concept......that's why Bush wrote those papers of non-accountability.....'for crimes against humanity'. Only an American president is held non-accountable for his crimes. If the President does it, then it's not illegal....Nixon said it.

Cp, you certainly have brought yet another topic to the forum, which intrigues, to say the least. A topic warrenting some considerable thought.

On the lighter side....DC, as Marvel and the other 'comic' publishers have done with their 'super heros'...sending messages, however obsecured.
DC killed Superman, their perioticals showing Superman dead....just 'Comic Book Nonsense of a fictious character.....right.

Well, the character was created during the WW2 years, to be an icon of America, to battle injustice, a crime fighter...When it became so popular to become part of the fabric of Americana.....Superman....Standing for Truth, Justice, and the American Way....you've seen it on TV......well, DC killed Superman....and what died....... with the iconic symbol Superman >>>>Truth, Justice, and the American Way.

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RE: Liberty and What for All? - 5/21/2009 1:32:14 PM

cpK69

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To be honest, I am not so sure we’ve lost anything; hard to lose what you never had. There might be an up side to that; if it is easier to gain what you never had, then to have lost, and try to regain. Not sure if that is true, or not.

I’m kind of at odds here. It was already a tricky feat to feel honor in being American (whatever that means), due to the loss of a large chunk of my heritage, when this place became ‘civilized’. Now, I find the one thing that worked for me, is as bs, as the idea of being civilized.

I decided last night, to change my motto to “Truth and Liberty for All”, so it is an interesting coincidence that you would bring up Superman, and his symbolism. I went with liberty instead of justice, because it is apparent that some are confusing Injustice (law), with Justice.

Don’t worry about Superman, if I’m not mistaken, he’ll be back; better, faster, stronger…

Speaking of symbolism in stories; you probably wouldn’t believe who I think the story of Pinocchio is really about.

My best,

Kim

< Message edited by cpK69 -- 5/21/2009 1:33:56 PM >

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RE: Liberty and What for All? - 5/21/2009 1:47:15 PM

Musicmystery

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quote:

justice, and how it relates to humans

As opposed to, say, justice among songbirds?

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RE: Liberty and What for All? - 5/21/2009 2:54:30 PM

cpK69

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

justice, and how it relates to humans

As opposed to, say, justice among songbirds?

Well, yes; I think.

There seems to be a need for a different approach in the acquisition thereof. I believe, because of man’s capabilities, he must learn to be responsible, to a much higher degree; which can be a difficult task, when considering the amount of deceit a person must wade through, to find truth.

Do you think a songbird ever wishes to be something else, only to be told by all the other songbirds; “quit your daydreaming of impossible dreams”?

Kim

< Message edited by cpK69 -- 5/21/2009 2:55:32 PM >

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Humility is where weakness and strength meet and humanity begins.

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RE: Liberty and What for All? - 5/21/2009 3:23:10 PM

jlf1961

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Justice is a social concept, set by a society for a society. For example, in countries where Shariah law is the legal code, then it is justice to remove the hand of a thief, or stone a murderer, and religious infractions are also legally crimes.

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RE: Liberty and What for All? - 5/21/2009 3:30:02 PM

Musicmystery

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quote:

Do you think a songbird ever wishes to be something else, only to be told by all the other songbirds; “quit your daydreaming of impossible dreams”?

Trouble is, Kim, that's not an issue of justice.

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RE: Liberty and What for All? - 5/21/2009 3:32:02 PM

cpK69

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Justice is a social concept, set by a society for a society. For example, in countries where Shariah law is the legal code, then it is justice to remove the hand of a thief, or stone a murderer, and religious infractions are also legally crimes.

So then we ask for liberty and law? I see a cat fight comming on.

Kim

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Humility is where weakness and strength meet and humanity begins.

one voice

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RE: Liberty and What for All? - 5/21/2009 3:37:12 PM

cpK69

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

Do you think a songbird ever wishes to be something else, only to be told by all the other songbirds; “quit your daydreaming of impossible dreams”?

Trouble is, Kim, that's not an issue of justice.

It was just a question that popped into my head; though, I suspect my mind found a connection somehow, in order to throw it out there.

Probably a few laps around the globe, and the connection might become evident. Too tired to make the trip right now; 24 hrs and counting. (I should go to bed)

Kim

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Humility is where weakness and strength meet and humanity begins.

one voice

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RE: Liberty and What for All? - 5/21/2009 3:39:58 PM

DesFIP

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Justice: "The law, in all its majesty forbids both rich and poor from sleeping under a bridge." Not what Thomeas Jefferson meant, but alas, all too often how it works out.

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RE: Liberty and What for All? - 5/21/2009 6:41:54 PM

ienigma777

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They already brought back superman...The series was called...The Reign of the Supermen....about some mechanical, half human, half machine....He (Superman) flies no more. The character reincarnations after the death has been dismal failures.

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RE: Liberty and What for All? - 5/22/2009 6:33:34 AM

Drakontos

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zaphira has spent some time thinking about what you said here. There was an article written by Ward Connerly of the Heritage Foundation. The article itself was nothing more than opinion based, however, he stated something within it that has always resonated with this slave.

In the article, he was commenting on the Pledge of Allegiance, and what it meant. His words "It is a definition of American democracy and a constant reaffirmation of our dedication to the fundamental principals of that democracy" have always struck zaphira as being something that all should remember.

zaphira thinks ( just thinks ) that all too often, we forget what the words actually mean, and what they actually stand for. It's important to remember that the Pledge of Allegiance was written as a phrase to celebrate what has now become Columbus day. The discovery of a new world, and the founding of a new nation within that world.

zaphira see's those words as a means of forcing her to remember why this country was founded in the first place. The Declaration of Independence grants us certain rights; which of those is Liberty. Under the rule of the British, those who settled in this country felt that Liberty was not a right that they had. But, you have to try and define the term liberty as they would have. zaphira can only guess, but hers would be the right to personal choice in all matters. (Of course, zaphira can not know for certain what the founders or the writers of the pledge were referring to when they used the term )

Now that zaphira has rambled, she will try her best to say what she believes justice is referring to in that phrase.

For this slave, the phrase 'liberty and justice for all' simply means that every citizen of the United States has a right to the freedom of choice; and that by excercising that right; they are by default placing themselves in a situation where the responsibilty for those choices rest solely on the individual's shoulders. Justice demands that personal choices be held accountable.

zaphira is not sure if she made any sense or not; she did however, have fun attempting to answer.

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zaphira

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RE: Liberty and What for All? - 5/22/2009 10:49:12 AM

cpK69

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Justice: "The law, in all its majesty forbids both rich and poor from sleeping under a bridge." Not what Thomeas Jefferson meant, but alas, all too often how it works out.

I'm not sure if I am understanding what was meant, or that I understand what you mean by your statement; but I don't get a sense of happiness from either.

Just sharing perception.

Kim

_____________________________

Humility is where weakness and strength meet and humanity begins.

one voice

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 15

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