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RE: Lesbians: Why do you hate transsexuals so much? - 5/25/2009 12:54:44 PM   
MissDominae


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Angel, whilst I heartily agree with most of your post and especially the message it is putting forward, I hope you won't mind if I make a few comments in clarification.

It is hard to embrace having been a man when the entire condition of Transsexuality revolves around never having been a male, just forced to live as one after being born with boy bits.   I respect and appreciate your comments and understand the thoughts behind them; you are right - transsexed women will never be 'just like other natal-born women' and need to accept that and cherish the women they are.   That said, I hope that *you*can see that such thoughts would be difficult for many women of transsexed background to embrace.

You are chromosomally XX.   I'm assuming Julia and Lindsey are chromosomally XY.   I am neither, having been born 46XX/47XXY Mosaic.   What should *I* embrace?   I can't embrace having been a natal woman OR a natal man, so I embrace just being me.   That may be the sensible approach and I believe it is what you have tried to express but, believe me, having been born neither one thing nor the other, whether anatomically/genotypically/physically as in my case or psychophysiologically as with transsexed women, is a hurtful and marginalising way to be born and not something I could ever imagine embracing as having been a positive in my life.   I am guessing most women born transsexed would feel the same.

Yes, I'm not the same as a natal woman.   I quite readily accept that since it is true.   That doesn't mean I ever have to enjoy the fact though and, for that reason, I can understand and empathise with the hurt people like Lindsey display.   In the end though your advice is very sound - we just have to make the best of it, be happy with what and who we are and get on with live.

Many thanks for an intelligent and interesting addition to the discussion.

Blessings ........... Miss D

(in reply to barelynangel)
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RE: Lesbians: Why do you hate transsexuals so much? - 5/25/2009 1:32:55 PM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissDominae

I'll be interested to see what responses this post elicits.

Blessings ......... MD



Well first I perved your profile. Then I did some selective cursing because your on the other side of the fraking globe.

Then I reread your post and though how well it was written.

Hope your having a great day.



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RE: Lesbians: Why do you hate transsexuals so much? - 5/25/2009 1:34:11 PM   
DreamGoddess666


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quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

You will NEVER be a woman like naturally born women. I am sorry, you won't be. I will never be a redhead like a naturally born redhead. I will never be a short person like a naturally short person. IF this causes you distress then you still DON'T GET IT. If you take this as a negative remark, you don't get it. PEOPLE are not the same.

What i don't get is why transgener people (well MOST of them) don't embrace who they are -- and what i mean by this is yeah you were BORN a MAN. Do you know how amazing that is, the experience and opportunity you have as a Man to then be a woman? I guess that is the hardest thing i don't get, why are you trying to BE something you aren't? You are a TRANSGENDER PERSON. Why not embrace that instead of fighting with people that YOU are a woman? You aren't, you have XY chromosomes, you grew up with a penis, you had people in your life view you, treat you, and have you exist AS A MAN. You decided that wasn't righ for you so you decided to become a woman. You took hormones, and dressed and studied and tried to figure out what being a woman is so you can say you are JUST LIKE naturally born women. WHY would you want to do that? YOU AREN'T. There is NO naturally born woman who will ever have the experiences you have been allowed to have.


Who the HELL are YOU to tell me WHO or WHAT I am? Did it ever occur to you what a true transsexual is? We are NOT defined by our transsexuality! A male-to-female is a genuine woman born with a PHYSICAL BIRTH DEFECT of having incorrect male body parts. In transition, the goal is to be a full WOMAN, not a "post-op transsexual". Also, I actually don't like the term transgender because that implies I switched genders: I DID NOT. I changed the physical sex to match the gender I was born with from the beginning.

Whether you privilaged bitchy "we're more woman than you" jerks like it or not, WE ARE EQUAL TO YOU AS WOMEN! Get it? If not, go stick your head in the ground a little further and just go away!

EDIT: Don't even try to use the chromosome argument because it's an INVALID way of determining gender! Androgen insensitivity syndrome says hello! I also heard somewhere that Jaime Lee Curtis has that condition and is an "XY" despite being a natal woman.

EDIT 2: It's true that the "standards" in place are bogus. I had NO CHOICE but to self-medicate. That is absolute fact. I had NO MEANS by which to reach a doctor that would assist my transition and prescribe the hormones and such for me. Should I have just given up because I was unable to find someone willing to help? NO! I did the smart thing: I did research, and as the saying goes, if you want something done right, do it yourself.

EDIT 3: Yes, I have other mental problems. No, I'm not going to talk about them on here. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the topic. My original complain was getting turned down by lesbians BECAUSE I'm transsexual. This wasn't my imagination. I was told this stuff outright! That was the point of the topic and so whatever other demons I'm dealing with, I'm dealing with them and they're irrelevent to the topic at hand.

< Message edited by DreamGoddess666 -- 5/25/2009 1:42:25 PM >

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RE: Lesbians: Why do you hate transsexuals so much? - 5/25/2009 1:37:44 PM   
RedMagic1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DreamGoddess666
\WE ARE EQUAL TO YOU AS WOMEN!

No two women are "equal."


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RE: Lesbians: Why do you hate transsexuals so much? - 5/25/2009 1:44:52 PM   
barelynangel


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quote:

I am neither, having been born 46XX/47XXY Mosaic. What should *I* embrace?


What do i see you as - you are both - you actually to me can claim both lol While i am not making light of this -- but damn do you know how uniquely amazing that is. I mean we can sit here all day speaking of the differences that can occur of why someone can be a transperson. I don't feel sorry for you nor will i somehow diminish what i was born as (XX) to somehow make you or people like you feel more accepted. What you were born as has given you something i and other women like me will never experience. While you may say well you haven't lived with it -- no i haven't, but its part of made you who you are and that in and of itself is what i see as amazing. Just like Men who become women, its the same concept.

How about embracing yourself and your differences BOTH parts of you without trying to BE LIKE anything? You are for yourself a woman, no matter what you are uniquely you -- you are a woman. You aren't LIKE anyone who was born with simply XX or XY chromosomes making them male of female. You were born both if i understand genetics correctly and so you actually have naturally things about you the average person never will.

angel






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RE: Lesbians: Why do you hate transsexuals so much? - 5/25/2009 1:46:31 PM   
Lockit


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DreamGoddess... I can understand your pain and anger.  I didn't have the same life harm done, but I am sure it can amount to similar things.  If you can hear anything I say... please read what I have to say.

I have genetic defects and yes they are defects.  Defects that will cost me my life.  Defects that have caused me trouble my whole life and some that have no medical answers or names for.  I was different, people could see I was different, although now it isn't as noticable.  I had them from an early age and I was fucked with in ways no one should be fucked with.  I was teased... I was called names... I was touched, I had to fight to protect myself all while suffering the physical things I suffered which were and are still enough to knock a horse off its feet.  I know that pain, that anger, that everything that comes with being noticably different than others.

Now you can remain angry and frustrated and fighting the world if you wish to, but the simple fact is that if you do not get the healing you need, you will never be happy.  You have to seek that healing out.  You have to face it, deal with it and make it change.

You can be victim the rest of your life and be held prisoner to your own choice or you can move past it to happiness.  You grab on to the negative no matter how much positive is posted here.  You hold on to hatred no matter what love is shown.

It is your choice... we all know it... when will you?

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RE: Lesbians: Why do you hate transsexuals so much? - 5/25/2009 1:51:38 PM   
DreamGoddess666


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

You can be victim the rest of your life and be held prisoner to your own choice or you can move past it to happiness.  You grab on to the negative no matter how much positive is posted here.  You hold on to hatred no matter what love is shown.


Question: What makes you think I haven't taken the positive to heart? What do you think helped me to grow the backbone to post the stuff I did recently? It was the positive things, the allies, those who have been supportive. That's my strength. I won't just stand by and let people talk down to me; not gonna happen, and that's what some other posters are doing with their claims that I'll never be a real woman like them. I am whether anyone likes it or not, and there's not a damn thing anyone's gonna do about it!

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RE: Lesbians: Why do you hate transsexuals so much? - 5/25/2009 1:53:24 PM   
Lockit


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Are you sure in all cases where you feel you have been talked down to... that you actually were?

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RE: Lesbians: Why do you hate transsexuals so much? - 5/25/2009 2:01:37 PM   
RedMagic1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DreamGoddess666
with their claims that I'll never be a real woman like them. I am whether anyone likes it or not,

I'm beginning to think that you are trying to convince yourself of this.

There's plenty of guys who would say I'm not a real man because I enjoy doting on women.  There's plenty of women who would say I'm not a real man because I enjoy hurting women.  Someday I will attend a national BDSM convention with a button that says, "100% Fake Dom."

Who cares if you're real?  Not me.  I don't even care if I'm real.


_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

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RE: Lesbians: Why do you hate transsexuals so much? - 5/25/2009 2:05:53 PM   
unowneddesire


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Occasional lurker, first time poster.. Whee!
And what a debate to decide to stick an oar into as well.

I see some wonderful posts and arguments, MissDominae - Your posts are fantastic to read and have left me with lots to think about as well.

I remember when I transitioned many years ago, a nugget my mother left with me.
"If you go though this, you will have to be stronger than anyone else"

And she was very much right. It's very hard, to get through this and to possibly not have some bad things or sad memories. Personally,  I've lost friends and family because they  just can't come to terms with it.

But I've also gained a lot by trying very hard to remain positive and upbeat. I've even failed at times and fallen into negativity.  But you can come though it. It'll take time and some effort on your part.
I don't doubt you will though.

And if I may use someone elses' words to express how my sleep-deprived brain views this.. "Sometimes, we get knocked down. It's how you get up that counts"

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RE: Lesbians: Why do you hate transsexuals so much? - 5/25/2009 2:09:43 PM   
pahunkboy


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Just a note- Lady E., is someone I admire.

She is well balanced and  I think everyone likes her on this board.

I find your unique incite per the world to be inspiring. I have emailed her a few times over the years.... 

She is a good role model.  She is gracious and willing to share.

....just ponder that.    :-)

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RE: Lesbians: Why do you hate transsexuals so much? - 5/25/2009 2:39:58 PM   
samboct


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"EDIT 3: Yes, I have other mental problems. No, I'm not going to talk about them on here. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the topic. My original complain was getting turned down by lesbians BECAUSE I'm transsexual. This wasn't my imagination. I was told this stuff outright! That was the point of the topic and so whatever other demons I'm dealing with, I'm dealing with them and they're irrelevent to the topic at hand."

Sorry- but from my perspective- that won't wash.  Spare me the complaints about an ad hominem argument.

1)  You're not interested in a discussion- you reject anyone's viewpoint who is not supportive of you.  Hence you can't learn anything.
2)  The advice which has been proferred about how to improve your lot in life is also being summarily rejected.
3)  Support which you get from a board such as this- when people are being ordered to turn off their viewpoints to provide a virtual shoulder to cry on is on par with a demanded apology.  It's so hollow- it's meaningless.

Since this is the manner with which you're choosing to communicate- I'll reiterate- the TG issues are the least of your worries right now.  You need a good shrink- not a bunch of anonymous strangers posting on an internet board providing what little moral support they can.  You can argue till your blue in the face that you don't- but your actions and words are speaking louder than anything else you might say.


Sam


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RE: Lesbians: Why do you hate transsexuals so much? - 5/25/2009 2:46:31 PM   
angelikaJ


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DreamGoddess666

Question: What makes you think I haven't taken the positive to heart? What do you think helped me to grow the backbone to post the stuff I did recently? It was the positive things, the allies, those who have been supportive. That's my strength. I won't just stand by and let people talk down to me; not gonna happen, and that's what some other posters are doing with their claims that I'll never be a real woman like them. I am whether anyone likes it or not, and there's not a damn thing anyone's gonna do about it!



Lindsey,
The thing is the majority of people here have been supportive and yet, you are hanging onto what a handful of people have said.

No one needs to attack you; you are doing a good job of that on your own, by refusing to see any of the positives and dwelling on the negatives.

If you could be objective, and look at the ratio you would see that while some posters have been negative towards you (and many of those have stated that your attitude was off-putting), the majority of participants have been supportive.

One thing occurred to me: what is real to you?
You use the word a lot.
What is "real"?

I have always liked what Margery Williams wrote about that:
"..."Real isn't how you are made," said the Skin Horse. "It's a thing that happens to you. ..."

"Does it hurt?" asked the Rabbit.

"Sometimes," said the Skin Horse, for he was always truthful. "When you are Real you don't mind being hurt."

"Does it happen all at once, like being wound up," he asked, "or bit by bit?"

"It doesn't happen all at once," said the Skin Horse. "You become. It takes a long time. That's why it doesn't happen often to people who break easily, or have sharp edges, or who have to be carefully kept. Generally, by the time you are Real, most of your hair has been loved off, and your eyes drop out and you get loose in the joints and very shabby. But these things don't matter at all, because once you are Real you can't be ugly, except to people who don't understand." ..."
The Velveteen Rabbit

Lindsey,
I know you are real.

And the people that don't?
Why let them matter?
How does that serve your highest good?

You can not control what other people do, only your reactions.
How are your choices serving you?







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RE: Lesbians: Why do you hate transsexuals so much? - 5/25/2009 3:19:34 PM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissDominae
Lets see...... Stella, myself, Jenny Boylan, Dana Beyer, Calpurnia Addams, Andrea James, Marci Bowers, Georgina Beyer, Karen Gurney, Jessica Orsini, Jenny Bailey. Kimberley Rae, Kayleen White, Rachel Wallbanks, Michele Taylor.   In that group we have lawyers, surgeons, teachers, Professors, Advocates, engineers, senior public servants, writers and a host of other talents and skills.   In most of these cases they did not reach their position of status until AFTER their transition.

..............   Most of us leave the self pity crap behind us and just get on with being normal people.   My little list above is just those I know personally or know of through publicity who have shown clearly that life as a normal, happy and successful woman IS possible for those born transsexed if we just put down the placards and the slogans and the labels and the huge chips some of us carry shoulder-high.



agreed; except that you missed me off the list

and except that some of us are ridiculously lucky in passing well enough that we can build new lives from the ruins of old ones. those who dont pass well often find themselves undermined and prevented by reactions from others.

albeit, this is something which to large extent we suffer with alongside natal women - that our success in life is too often determined by others' reactions to our appearance more than our abilities, talents and interests.

and what has to be noted for me personally and to my shame perhaps, is that because I pass well and have been able to get on with building a new life and becoming successful, I dont feel any need for protesting and fighting for rights and recognitions which (taken to be a natural born woman) I get anyway.

but working with the police, and having people referred to me for help who dont pass well (hence their contact as victims of violence with the police), I get some insight into why and how all the protesting and fighting goes on.

when I hear the stories of some of these people (most even, maybe all), I feel helpless and something of a fraud - it was too easy for me, it all just came naturally, I didnt have to change anything much and I never really experienced many of the problems that these people suffer daily - I didnt even lose a great deal; so how am I meant to help? in many ways, it puts me in the same position as natal women perhaps who may possibly have little understanding of the trials and tribulations of some trans women and hence not understand too well the problems that get talked about in threads like these and the ideas and attitudes (often confrontational) that are presented.

E

< Message edited by LadyEllen -- 5/25/2009 3:22:00 PM >


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RE: Lesbians: Why do you hate transsexuals so much? - 5/25/2009 4:10:26 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: unowneddesire

Occasional lurker, first time poster.. Whee!
And what a debate to decide to stick an oar into as well.

I see some wonderful posts and arguments, MissDominae - Your posts are fantastic to read and have left me with lots to think about as well.

I remember when I transitioned many years ago, a nugget my mother left with me.
"If you go though this, you will have to be stronger than anyone else"

And she was very much right. It's very hard, to get through this and to possibly not have some bad things or sad memories. Personally,  I've lost friends and family because they  just can't come to terms with it.

But I've also gained a lot by trying very hard to remain positive and upbeat. I've even failed at times and fallen into negativity.  But you can come though it. It'll take time and some effort on your part.
I don't doubt you will though.

And if I may use someone elses' words to express how my sleep-deprived brain views this.. "Sometimes, we get knocked down. It's how you get up that counts"



Unowneddesire, and what did your father say?

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 5/25/2009 4:11:00 PM >


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RE: Lesbians: Why do you hate transsexuals so much? - 5/25/2009 5:35:27 PM   
LotusSong


Posts: 6334
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Domme Emeritus
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quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ


So, if I understand you correctly, you actually believe that guys will go for gender reassignment surgery just to get a free show from lesbians?

Hmmmmm....

....nope, don't buy it!



Heavens NO! ... but they say they don't have the money to get it done.. or they are afraid to get it done.. or they they don't have time to get it done. Common now really.. If I had all the money in the world in which ANYONE who claims they are a female in a male body and loooooooongs to be a real girl.. via the boobs and pussy and such (which by the way is a total example of MALE thinking being the visual creatures they are. All ya need are the boobs and a faux pussy, dont cha know). How many do you think would jump at the chance? I can see the beads of sweat forming on their foreheads ("You mean now? uuuhhh Really? You Sure? It's radical surgery ya know... I need to think a bit more about this" I mean I just really liked the clothes).

Ellen is the ONLY one I would give creedence to as one who is what they say they are and makes no excuses or bates the board with playing a victim. She is what she is and for that she has my respect. She's taken her lumps and paid her dues.

< Message edited by LotusSong -- 5/25/2009 5:37:07 PM >


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RE: Lesbians: Why do you hate transsexuals so much? - 5/25/2009 6:03:28 PM   
aravain


Posts: 1211
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quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct


Note- sounds like me and Aravain are on the same page- I'm speaking from some first hand experience- sounds like Aravain is as well.



Yup.

@JuliaGreenleaf

Actually, it sounds to me like her recent experiences have *exacerbated* an existing condition of depression (whether chemically induced or not). Lindsey admitted to combating/having problems with depression. samboct and I were being relatively wide in our aim of advice, with especial consideration for those who know they have a pre-existing condition that is either incidental, or minor, compared to the condition that requires help (In this case her gender is the incidental 'condition,' comparatively, and what she needs help with... is whatever else she's going through).

(feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, samboct)

< Message edited by aravain -- 5/25/2009 6:05:13 PM >

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RE: Lesbians: Why do you hate transsexuals so much? - 5/25/2009 6:24:24 PM   
angelikaJ


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LS

Thank you for the clarification.

I partly understand your suspicions .

I am not denying the existence of predators.
As I stated earlier, they exist and those who seek to do harm will do harm.
Sexual violence is abhorrent.


I don't have an answer as to why many M to F transexuals identify as lesbians but I don't think all of the reasons are nefarious.

These are only over-simplified imagined possibilities and I have no data to support them.

I find myself wondering if part of it is just the way people are wired: if the preference for women tends to follow in 'males' regardless of their gender identification and also if some of it is societal conditioning.. as young 'boys' they are conditioned that "attraction to girls is good and attraction to boys is bad".

I can only imagine... and since I have no first hand experience, my second hand knowledge mainly comes from the generous  posters on CM.
I hope my response is not seen as offensive.... .






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RE: Lesbians: Why do you hate transsexuals so much? - 5/25/2009 7:30:18 PM   
MissDominae


Posts: 94
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong
Ellen is the ONLY one I would give creedence to as one who is what they say they are and makes no excuses or bates the board with playing a victim. She is what she is and for that she has my respect. She's taken her lumps and paid her dues.


I'm rather sad I didn't make the cut and get onto your list *S*
How may I improve so that I might also do so?

Sorry, just couldn't resist asking (I'm a cheeky cow LOL) ............. Miss D

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RE: Lesbians: Why do you hate transsexuals so much? - 5/25/2009 7:34:19 PM   
samboct


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(feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, samboct)

Nope- like I said- we're on the same page.  The gender stuff may be a symptom- but sounds like we're both picking up that there's something underlying Lindsey's actions that requires some medical treatment.

Sam

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