Netting it out (Full Version)

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CatdeMedici -> Netting it out (5/25/2009 2:18:51 PM)

You know at one time or another, we are called selfless or selfish---I'm so over this---we are here because we can't find what we want out there---that seems pretty selfish I'd say--I do not think that anyone in BDSM does anything with out being selfish--I mean, ok service sub does it to serve, he gets a Domina who wants a service sub--its a do this get that--he does xxxx, She gets xxx--so tell Me, everyone in this lifestyle is selfish and everyone is to some degree selfless? Its a matter of matching equal amounts of selfless and selfishness to get to the magic formula.
 
 
Yes?



littlewonder -> RE: Netting it out (5/25/2009 2:45:03 PM)

People are selfish...period.

Bdsm has absolutely nothing at all do with it.

People do what they do because they get something from it..even serving others, even volunteering, even helping others in whatever form.



missturbation -> RE: Netting it out (5/25/2009 2:54:10 PM)

quote:

You know at one time or another, we are called selfless or selfish---I'm so over this---we are here because we can't find what we want out there---that seems pretty selfish I'd say--

 
That's because everyone is selfish or selfless at some point in their life. On the next part speak for yourself, i'm not here because i can't find anyone out there. I've met many out there, i'm just here for the chat, gossip, bitchfests and cake.
 
quote:

Its a matter of matching equal amounts of selfless and selfishness to get to the magic formula.


For some yes, for some no. There is no magic formula for relationships that works for everyone.



bearly2001 -> RE: Netting it out (5/25/2009 2:56:48 PM)

when i was very young and impressionable as a teenager, i encountered author ayn rand's philosophy of enlightened self interest called objectivism.. the virtue of selfishness. i won't use this forum to discuss her views.. but she had a sort of cult following and her biggest novels, "the fountainhead" and "atlas shrugged" were huge successes.

after the cynicism and skepticism that invariablly follows idealism and impetous youth, i came to see that a balance of these things comprise a safer and more enlightened path.. yes, selfishness, selflessness and enlightened self-interest are involved. i soon grasped that doing things so that we look good in other's eyes or to impress others, only leads only to an emptiness, as we vainly seek validation through others and their values and standards. we lose our own identity and become puppets on their string and find ourselves drfting without moorings. look around in today's world and see where the insane drive for success and acclaim has brought us. many wander clueless, living sad and mean lives, measured only by the shallow and meaningless material things they have acquired and the neverending chase for validation.

how does this subject relate to bdsm and relationships? well, it is not at all specific to the problems of this community, but to all human interaction. how we view ourselves in relation to others is a fundamental part of communication and how we relate to the others we encounter. it does have special resonance to those of us who express dominant or submissive nature though.. how does the exchange of power and control arise from within the fabric of each's personality? is it from a personal altruism or a selfish compulsion? or is it, like most things in life, a melange of these factors and the ever changing and evolving appreciation of the motivations that determine the life path we each follow? i am anxious to hear how others here relate to this interesting topic.



CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Netting it out (5/25/2009 3:01:05 PM)

Self-interest is the true reason behind everything we do. There is nothing that human beings do that is not done because the human in question gets something out of it. Even behaviors that can be perceived as self-destructive are typically done in the interest of what the person is -getting- out of what xhe's doing. If something isn't working -- if the person isn't getting whatever feedback xhe is looking for, xhe will not continue the behavior, no matter -how- productive it seems to be to anyone else. If something -is- working -- if the person is getting whatever xhe needs to feel like the behavior is giving hir something xhe wants -- xhe will continue to repeat that behavior no matter how -unproductive- that behavior might seem to be to anyone else.

There is a form of self-interest called "enlightened self-interest". This is the motivation for seeming acts of martyrdom, philanthropy, and other appearances of caring for others. The individual in these cases gets what xhe is looking for (accolades, to be seen as a 'nice' person, good press...) by paying attention to what will be good for -others-. It is from this perspective that an individual can "have one's cake and eat it too" so to speak... by paying attention to and caring for others' needs, an individual can place hirself in a position where xhe is well-thought-of, and where hir own goals are met without sacrificing the perception that xhe is, somehow, selfless. In reality, there is no selflessness in individuals who are psychologically healthy -- it is a survival trait to retain healthy self-interest. In that sense, there is no person who is healthy and sane who is -not- "selfish".

Dame Calla



CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Netting it out (5/25/2009 3:05:54 PM)

quote:

Original: bearly2001

after the cynicism and skepticism that invariablly follows idealism and impetous youth, i came to see that a balance of these things comprise a safer and more enlightened path.. yes, selfishness, selflessness and enlightened self-interest are involved. i soon grasped that doing things so that we look good in other's eyes or to impress others, only leads only to an emptiness, as we vainly seek validation through others and their values and standards. we lose our own identity and become puppets on their string and find ourselves drfting without moorings. look around in today's world and see where the insane drive for success and acclaim has brought us. many wander clueless, living sad and mean lives, measured only by the shallow and meaningless material things they have acquired and the neverending chase for validation.


I would have to disagree with this statement. Enlightened self-interest also allows for one to embrace respect for oneself and individual growth as markers for "success", so it does not automatically require -any- input from external sources or external validation, but combinations of both internal and external validation can include internal validation and a sense of feeling that one has done what follows ones own ethical framework also fit as normal, acceptable enlightened self-interest as well as external validation from accepting accolades from others without necessarily implying that one is unable to self-validate..

Dame Calla



SteelofUtah -> RE: Netting it out (5/25/2009 3:08:52 PM)

There is Nothing more selfish than the Human Being because it is one of the few mammals we know thinks in terms of self. Most other Mammals are to some degree pack animals and even though we are Pack Animals in the way we choose to co-habitate, it is important to understand that we do so for selfish reasons.

Selfish isn't even the best word to use. We are in ways Symbiotic but in a facultative manner. We tend to use our partners to serve our own needs. I as a dominant use my submissive to facilitate the need to dominate and she uses me to facilitate the need of being dominated.

As time goes on the Self (either hers or mine) is always maintained by need. The difference is how it is facilitated, Through need or intense desire we feel the desire to manipulate the situation we are in. I believe this is why most people cheat. The need to have something different isn't strong enough to change the current relationship and so a new relationship is sought for a singular purpose.

As far as BDSM goes I feel we are just more accustomed to saying I need X, Y, & Z and am willing to Give A,B,& C to get it. However a large amount of those engaged in BDSM are doing so in addition to an existing relationship, I do not know the exact numbers but when you take into account the number of people I have met who were wanting to get involved in a BDSM style relationship as well as the number of people who claim that they have been talking to married men and women and assume statistically the experiences are similar I would say that Many people get into BDSM to get something they aren't getting from thier spouse.

As for Self based acts I don't see any difference in BDSM relationships as I do in any kind of relationship I just see that we are more honest about that idea.

Steel



bearly2001 -> RE: Netting it out (5/25/2009 3:19:11 PM)

@callafirestormbw i am a bit mystified at your disagreement with the highlighted portion you quoted. i think we agree 100% that enlightened self interest, by definition, results in internal validation. yet many are not so enlightened that they recognize their self interest. denial and self delusion are not uncommon.. and the reliance on what we have been taught and not what we have learned is also a barrier. my use of the term success was in the vernacular sense of how many in our current world measure it... by the respect, wealth and reputation that we achieve and, sometimes measure, by the goods we own, lol.

although shakespeare ironically used the shallow and feckless polonius as his mouthpiece.. the words still ring true to most of us. "This above all: to thine own self be true, And it must follow, as the night the day,Thou canst not then be false to any man."

i think the concept of conscience is still my principle guiding light. what say you all?



DavanKael -> RE: Netting it out (5/25/2009 3:24:44 PM)

I think that everything we do is in some way motivated by self.  Even the most altruistic of things has some sort of self-gratification attached and that isn't inherently a bad thing. 
Sure, I think that for folks to relate with one another, their ability to overlay their self-interests along with their willingness to give to another, at least within the moments that they are relating, must have some level of compatibility.  I would, of course, say that the longer a relationships is to exist healthfully, the better a match or compliment these traits must be in the people involved. 
  Davan



leadership527 -> RE: Netting it out (5/25/2009 3:40:10 PM)

I don't process my relationship with Carol in terms of selfish and selflessness. In fact, I don't think I really process her as being all that distinct from me. Her needs... my needs... her wants... my wants... all bouncing off each other in a hall of mirrors. Who could possibly say where something started or why something was. We both give into the relationship so that we can, in turn, get out of it again. But between her and I, I think there's mostly just "us".



CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Netting it out (5/25/2009 3:46:08 PM)

bearly2001,

You're right. It may have been the mindframe from which I read it. It seemed to me that you were saying that enlightened self-interest was the equivalent of requiring external validation and not a functional method of healthy interaction, but as I re-read, I see that the way that I was reading it was inaccurate in terms of what you actually -said-.

Dame Calla



chamberqueen -> RE: Netting it out (5/25/2009 4:00:32 PM)

No matter which side of the kneel you are on you need to balance your wants and needs with those of your partner.  Both make both selfless and selfish acts, and there are times when something can be perceived as one when it is really the other. 

I serve because it makes me happy to please someone special and get positive reinforcement in return.  That's neither selfish nor selfless.  There are acts that I do that are incredibly difficult and are selfless, yet that is not the norm.  There are also times when I ask for something that I particularly need which may seem totally selfish but it is so that I can get the refreshment that I need in order to serve better.  There is a lot of gray area between the two extremes.





oceanwinds -> RE: Netting it out (5/25/2009 4:04:32 PM)

I have a healthy level of selfishness within me that i honor. I live my life to enlighten my soul, and will choose experiences that provides me lessons to do so. In the manner of  be a submissive in a Ds relationship, serving someone is a joy at times, and other times it is hard. Even in those moments when it gets hard, i am selfish, because i see it as a time to learn how to control myself more. I challenge myself more then anyone can. With that said i am also selfless in my life too, trying to do things without recognition. I selfishly do not want to have that recognition of doing something for another. To me it is equivelent to donating money to a charity and telling everyone I did. There is a healthy balance in both selfishness and selflessness.



Joseff -> RE: Netting it out (5/25/2009 6:44:11 PM)

Self interest is NOT selfishness. Is it wrong to want a happy relationship? Is it wrong to want good food and decent healthcare? Is just wanting a little security, to not have to worry about where you'll get the cash to pay a bill, so evil? We all do things in our own self interest everyday, its called living. Its the survival instinct. Selfishness is destructive. Its resenting others because they have something you don't. Its taking by force from those who cannot defend themselves. It's wanting something for nothing. People give hundreds of billions of dollars a year to charities, anonymously. Not governments, people, individuals. They don't do it for self agrandisement, they do it because they want to help. Animals in the wild help none but themselves and their offspring. The higher the animal, the more it gives, the more it thinks beyond itself. Only a human would donate a vital organ to someone they never met. We are not selfish people, we prove it constantly.



KoolnSassy -> RE: Netting it out (5/25/2009 7:37:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CatdeMedici

You know at one time or another, we are called selfless or selfish---I'm so over this---we are here because we can't find what we want out there---that seems pretty selfish I'd say--I do not think that anyone in BDSM does anything with out being selfish--I mean, ok service sub does it to serve, he gets a Domina who wants a service sub--its a do this get that--he does xxxx, She gets xxx--so tell Me, everyone in this lifestyle is selfish and everyone is to some degree selfless? Its a matter of matching equal amounts of selfless and selfishness to get to the magic formula.
 
 
Yes?


I'd say, yes definitely. But where I find contention is when someone tries to get without having to give much. That definitely presents a problem.



stella41b -> RE: Netting it out (5/25/2009 8:41:42 PM)

In every case for me it's G and T. Give and Take, but failing that I find a good Gin and Tonic works wonders.



AlexandraLynch -> RE: Netting it out (5/25/2009 9:14:24 PM)

I have found personally that the more happiness I work to make in the world around me, the happier I am.

If it gives pleasure to Mr. X to wash my dishes, it gives me pleasure not to have to do the damn dishes, and I am liable to express my appreciation by making sure that he has an enjoyable time (however we may wish to define that) while he's visiting me. And he is likely to express his enjoyment by finding ways to make me happy, and it's all a very nice feedback loop.



agirl -> RE: Netting it out (5/26/2009 1:45:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

I don't process my relationship with Carol in terms of selfish and selflessness. In fact, I don't think I really process her as being all that distinct from me. Her needs... my needs... her wants... my wants... all bouncing off each other in a hall of mirrors. Who could possibly say where something started or why something was. We both give into the relationship so that we can, in turn, get out of it again. But between her and I, I think there's mostly just "us".


While I don't spend much time determining *selfish and selflessness* , I'm still an individual WITHIN a relationship. We are both very aware that I am far more selfish than he is. I don't know WHY I am , but I am. He does far more for me , is far more thoughtful than I am and is far more interested in my best interests than I am his. I'm honest about it......it can't be hidden , it's obvious in the way both he and I behave. I appreciate to a HUGE degree that he has attributes that I don't have.

It works perfectly well because he has the authority to have things how he wants them , no matter how self-serving I am. It would be FAR more difficult if HE was the selfish one between us.

agirl





CatdeMedici -> RE: Netting it out (5/26/2009 2:17:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b

In every case for me it's G and T. Give and Take, but failing that I find a good Gin and Tonic works wonders.


I've got the next round![8D]



cpK69 -> RE: Netting it out (5/26/2009 4:49:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CatdeMedici

 Its a matter of matching equal amounts of selfless and selfishness to get to the magic formula.
 
 
Yes?


My perspective on the situation.

I compare it to this: When I am hungry, my brain tells my hand to put food in my mouth, then, the food is processed from there. Each part acts in survival of self, but no part benefits more than the other. The acts involved are neither selfless, nor selfish; but necessary for the unit as a whole to sustain.

Hope that makes sense.

Kim



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