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RE: Faith without works - 5/26/2009 9:49:54 AM   
breatheasone


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quote:

ORIGINAL: camille65

Which bible do you use?

King James or The New King James.( i have both, but prefer the New King James)


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RE: Faith without works - 5/26/2009 9:54:32 AM   
dcnovice


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Status: offline 		For study, I like the New Revised Standard Version.

For poetry, I like the King James.

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RE: Faith without works - 5/26/2009 10:25:06 AM   
cpK69


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark


As in his birth?  Or his resurrection?
 
the.dark.

 

I am referring to the significance of his being here; not the signs that would signify he is the savior; unless those are the things believed to be most significant.

… hope that makes sense.

Kim

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RE: Faith without works - 5/26/2009 10:33:02 AM   
cpK69


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Status: offline 		Rainfire,

Thank you for the clarification.

Is it odd of me to think the real saving is in his word?

Kim

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RE: Faith without works - 5/26/2009 10:48:43 AM   
candisa


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Status: offline 		where does hypocrisy fit into all this, If one does the work, as in studying the words, and also pushing their morals of right and wrong onto others. Yet they are more then able to turn the other cheek because all sin will be forgiven.

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RE: Faith without works - 5/26/2009 11:00:36 AM   
GreedyTop


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Status: offline 		forgive me, I havent read the whole thread...

My Grandpa felt that by 'works'  the idea was to live as closely as possible by the teachings of Jesus (which he did).  Treat others etc...

to me, that is what 'works' means.


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RE: Faith without works - 5/26/2009 11:17:36 AM   
cpK69


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

forgive me, I havent read the whole thread...

My Grandpa felt that by 'works'  the idea was to live as closely as possible by the teachings of Jesus (which he did).  Treat others etc...

to me, that is what 'works' means.



That's along the lines of what I took it as; seek truth.

Kim

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RE: Faith without works - 5/26/2009 11:25:58 AM   
Rainfire


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Status: offline 		That works for some people, but this is one of those "denomination" things where different churches use the term "works" to mean different things. It's one area where people think they know what Mormons are talking about but while they're thinking it means ABC, to a Mormon, it means XYZ. Same term, different meaning but if not clarified, each person thinks they're talking about the same thing.

In the LDS church, you have to do "works" to earn blessings. So that means helping the missionaries, feeding them, doing temple ordinances for the dead, for women working on the family food storage and sewing projects for the Church Welfare system like quilts and school bags (did a LOT of those in my years!) doing all your "callings" in church like teaching Sunday School or Cub Scouts, whatever the church says you have to do. Without these "blessings", you won't get into the Celestial Kingdom. (And Joseph Smith's approval.)

In other churches, "works" can include helping the homeless, feeding the poor, helping a neighbour out that needs it, things like what you read Jesus having done, giving to the poor, kindness, gentleness, a willingness to help those who truly need it. In the Mennonite/Amish churches, they don't think twice about giving what they have and helping people, church members or not. If there's a single mom struggling and they know her, they help. I had some of the brethren come over to help me do some major repairs and work on my house that I couldn't do myself. Or when I was sick, some of the ladies came by and cleaned my house and brought meals for the family. Little things that meant so much.

Me, I've always seen it as just being a good person and helping my fellow human. I'll do what I can, I just feel bad that I can't help more. (Like getting yer ass to Pirate!)  


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RE: Faith without works - 5/26/2009 12:35:52 PM   
LadyEllen


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Status: offline 		Not the intent of this thread I'm sure, but its related - and it was on BBC Radio4 Thought For The Day yesterday morning (just to prove I was up early for a meeting on the holiday) as I was driving down to Luton.

The Thought was regarding this subject, and a Christian bishop was quoted on it - that "works" are not the sole provenance of the faithful, even though they ought to follow from faith. The idea was to say that the "works" of those who do not have "faith" must be accounted more valuable, since the bishop held, "works" flow naturally from "faith" so to do the works absent the faith is more commendable. In some ways too, (my own opinion), it rings true to the whole notion of Christian humility to think this way, as well as it calling to mind the examples said to have been cited by Jesus of those who pray in the street to be seen and those who do so unseen in private.

The Thought also mentioned as a follow on the nature of evils committed by those said to be of faith. The idea being that evils committed by such must be accounted as worse than the evils of those not of faith. (it was referring to the Irish situation from what I remember).

The overall point I guess is that the idea of faith without works being dead is accurate. Those who truly have faith - rather than those who claim it for social or personal reasons - must necessarily find that from that faith flow works quite naturally. For those who claim faith but fail to perform the works - their faith is necessarily shown to be a sham.

E

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RE: Faith without works - 5/26/2009 12:49:43 PM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69
I am referring to the significance of his being here; not the signs that would signify he is the savior; unless those are the things believed to be most significant.

… hope that makes sense.

Kim


His significance is that without him, prophecies would not have been fulfilled and christianity would not exist at all.  There were lots of 'fullfilments' that signified he was the person who was to be the son of god as well as the obvious self declarations.  In other words, he fullfilled 'messianic' prophecy.
 
Apart from the whole son of god thing, he did exist as a person outside of biblical writings and the fact that there is little - if any - negative representation of his existance pretty much upholds the whole 'purity' aspect that people aspire to.
 
the.dark.

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RE: Faith without works - 5/26/2009 3:21:39 PM   
BitaTruble


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quote:

Apart from the whole son of god thing, he did exist as a person outside of biblical writings and the fact that there is little - if any - negative representation of his existance pretty much upholds the whole 'purity' aspect that people aspire to.

the.dark.

Heyaz .dark.

I have researched secular documentation fairly extensively and have never found any evidence that Jesus was a real person. As far as I can tell, the bible holds the only accounts of the existance of Christ. Can you expand on what you mean by 'he did exist as a person outside of biblical writing' because I don't believe there is any evidence to point to that as a fact and I would dearly love to be proven wrong.

My best to Darcy and hugs for you..

Celeste

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RE: Faith without works - 5/26/2009 4:57:41 PM   
MissSepphora1


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Status: offline 		And Jesus always won the "my dad is better than your dad" arguments.

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RE: Faith without works - 5/26/2009 6:16:45 PM   
JstAnotherSub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

forgive me, I havent read the whole thread...

My Grandpa felt that by 'works'  the idea was to live as closely as possible by the teachings of Jesus (which he did).  Treat others etc...

to me, that is what 'works' means.



thats what my dad did.  he lived quietly by what he believed in, and if people asked him how he was always so content, he told them.  some listened, some didnt, but they all respected them and he always treated everyone with respect.



< Message edited by JstAnotherSub -- 5/26/2009 6:19:53 PM >

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RE: Faith without works - 5/26/2009 7:44:14 PM   
breatheasone


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSepphora1

And Jesus always won the "my dad is better than your dad" arguments.

LMAO....i love that...


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RE: Faith without works - 5/26/2009 8:59:59 PM   
cpK69


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

His significance is that without him, prophecies would not have been fulfilled and christianity would not exist at all.  There were lots of 'fullfilments' that signified he was the person who was to be the son of god as well as the obvious self declarations.  In other words, he fullfilled 'messianic' prophecy.
 
Apart from the whole son of god thing, he did exist as a person outside of biblical writings and the fact that there is little - if any - negative representation of his existance pretty much upholds the whole 'purity' aspect that people aspire to.
 
the.dark.

 
A large part of my confusion over the subject comes from my somewhat, ‘backdoor’ approach, in coming to the conclusion that the story of Jesus, has relevance toward my search for truth.

I started by attempting to discern what would constitute a “one true God”, and then went on to try and understand what the ‘religion’ of that god would be like, which lead me to “the word” of said god. Since it is said that Jesus is “the Word” of “the one true God”, then, if true, it seems to me, he would be truth itself.

It was my thinking, if accurate; his word would be equally important, as he.

Kim

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RE: Faith without works - 5/26/2009 9:59:03 PM   
MrRodgers


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Status: offline 		Having a faith and believing in soul are subjective, personal matters and myself having been their author and judge...neither success nor failure shall deprive me.


< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 5/26/2009 10:00:43 PM >

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RE: Faith without works - 5/27/2009 4:02:49 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble
Heyaz .dark.

I have researched secular documentation fairly extensively and have never found any evidence that Jesus was a real person. As far as I can tell, the bible holds the only accounts of the existance of Christ. Can you expand on what you mean by 'he did exist as a person outside of biblical writing' because I don't believe there is any evidence to point to that as a fact and I would dearly love to be proven wrong.

My best to Darcy and hugs for you..

Celeste


Hello Celeste!  Regards to your Master and yourself!
 
The quickest that springs to mind would be Julian the apostate - known as a 'hostile' witness because he was so anti christian (allegedly - actually, he was pagan and the last non christian ruler of the empire).  Obviously his accounts come from after the time of Jesus, but he was using his records and accounts of births and deaths that he had access to.
 
Apart from the obvious apocryphillic writings and other similar jewish texts the biggest (and most laboureous) thing to do is trawl is to research the romans.  Tactius would be a good starting point and probably one of the most reliable as the dates and times match - again there are those that dismiss it, but I have found Tactius one of the best confirmations.
There is a report of a secular historian called Phlegeon(sp?) reporting an eclipse which occured the night of the cruxifiction.  His work is pretty unattainable now other than second hand info, and it is disputed because he wrote a lot of fanciful stuff (earthquakes etc) that were not recorded by others, but there are also things that were in line with other historians.  Whether you take his account would be personal choice.
Also a roman soldier who was low rank - whos name escapes me at the moment - whos diaries mentioned a man walking around called Jesus who claimed to be a son of god and that he had some of the higher ranking officers concerned.  I will come back and confirm his name if I can.
 
Just to throw a firecracker out there too - there is also a report of a roman archer being Jesus' birth father, rather than Joseph.  Now that is a long shot, but a possiblity due to dates - but then I never wanted to prove the virgin birth, I only wanted to find out for me, that Jesus existed as a person.
 
Like all things, pinch of salt an all that.  Like pretty much all ancient texts, there are the people that confirm the authenticity of the texts, and those that don't.  Tactius works for me, for others it won't.
 
the.dark.

< Message edited by Darcyandthedark -- 5/27/2009 4:03:22 AM >

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RE: Faith without works - 5/27/2009 4:08:24 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69
A large part of my confusion over the subject comes from my somewhat, ‘backdoor’ approach, in coming to the conclusion that the story of Jesus, has relevance toward my search for truth.

I started by attempting to discern what would constitute a “one true God”, and then went on to try and understand what the ‘religion’ of that god would be like, which lead me to “the word” of said god. Since it is said that Jesus is “the Word” of “the one true God”, then, if true, it seems to me, he would be truth itself.

It was my thinking, if accurate; his word would be equally important, as he.

Kim


I wouldn't call it a back door approach.  It's pretty much a description of what faith is really, IMO.
 
the.dark.

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RE: Faith without works - 5/27/2009 10:49:44 AM   
ienigma777


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Status: offline 		Sorry to intrude in this wonderful conversation. You are so very right about..... the lack of knowledge in these threads...... This thread included.

While you all banter ..Jesus and bible stuff....the Holy Bible; King James Version.....no one on here, has actually touched the origins of this 'christian' thing. The source of it's beginnings with Constantine; and how the entire 'christian' faith envolved; the catholic church, lutherian, etc.

It, this book, was created to be the rule of behavior for the masses...The Holy Bible, King James Version.....is the rule book. A state religon, as in the catholic church, who mosty spoke latin, to the people, keeping the mass population, ignorant, from reading and drawing their own judgements; being percieved by the state and clergy as not having the capabilities to make their own decisions, that they shouldn't bother themselves with spitual concerns.

This Bible you are bantering is a political tool, has nothing to do with 'faith' as you describe it. The favorite end to end all phrases so called 'christians' use when confronted with historical fact is..."God said it (always pointing to or waving the King James Version of the bible), I believe it, that settles it." No matter what the disagreement, or discussion.

When you can envoke God, and use this book, to substantiate your reasoning, behavior and actions, anything, ANYTHING at all becomes vaild and possible.

And if anything goes awry...you can always envoke the devil or lucifier.
This book provides a conveinent source for evading responsibilty for your actions

"Pray for our military men & Women who are striving to do what is right. Also, for this country, that our leaders, our national leaders, are sending US soldiers out on a task that is from God.
That's what we have to make sure that we're praying for, that there is a plan and that plan is God's plan."

Not my quote, but another's...most recent.

You banter, a 'fantasy book' as if it were real .... it's like what Gore Vidal does, taking historical event fact, adding some spice, a few fictional characters, and you have a historical novel, based on actual events.

Christians, typically adore the cross and the slain jesus thereon. Saying, it is a symbolic demonstration of God's love for mankind.

Well, it is not, it was created as a symbol of the church/state authority over the citizen, having the power of life and death. The words the clergy say, that whosoever believith upon him shall have life eternal.....and who rejects...shall have death......and the reinforment is the pictorial/graphic imagery of the cross....the crucifixtion....the state form of execution, for criminals.....if you do not accept, then you are a criminal.

Or...put it another way....if you are not for us, then you are against us.

Before the cross, the state held as it's symbol...the fascist bound reeds. Which, was carried before the armies of Rome, and the official parades. It appeared on our US Dime, and on either side of the poidium, (on the wall) of the speaker of the house, it is in gold leafed base relief about eight feet high.

While I respect your indivual belief system, for one another's edification, you should consider a banter of history, religous origns.

If you tell a lie, often enough...it becomes the truth.

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RE: Faith without works - 5/27/2009 1:15:25 PM   
RCdc


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Status: offline 		Hi ienigma
 
Not to bubble bust or anything, but there have been plenty of discussion on CM about the origins of where the bible originated.  There is one running currently where I mentioned it, but it's origins are not something that tends to be ignored.(Fallacy 1)
 
On another note, you state that it is a fantasy book.  Fact - it's not.  It's real and tangible (even if you can't hold those bits of papyrus in your fingertips) and does exist.  So, to make a statement that it's fantasy is at best - false. (Fallacy2) Now to state that the bible is fictional would be something entirely different.  Because yes, I am pretty sure on a personal level that some of the words and stories are fictional - but to claim the whole book fictional would again, be false(Fallacy3).  Because there are some pretty historical references such as leaders, people and roman history et blah.
So I tend to be pedantic - but then I am lover of the written word.  I just get pretty fed up with people dismissing the content of ancient scrolls as fantasy, when they have some really good content - regardless of whether they are fictional or not.  I get that people don't feel happy with christians.  But these are ancient scrolls, written by people who were rare in such times - and regardless as to whether you think they were fiction or fact - some - not all - were amazingly written.  I don't see people giving any credit to the imagination some of these writers have.  You are also dismissing the study and what people went through to produce writings like this.
People also forget that this was a time where 'common' people were poorly educated.  Parables and verse made things easier to comprehend.  People worked in stories, fables and sometimes in rhyme.   Should that make the writing and the individual books/writings/poetry any less important?
 
Again, christians and the cross.(Fallacy4) The cross and crucifiction is not about gods love for mankind.  It's about many things, depending on where it's held, but not just about gods love for mankind.(Apart from the fact that 'adoration of idols' in some christian circles is a complete nono (fallacy 5)).
 
So yes, if you tell a lie, it can become truth.  So beware the fallacy you try to manifest.
 
the.dark.


< Message edited by Darcyandthedark -- 5/27/2009 1:24:17 PM >

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