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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/28/2009 5:43:43 AM

MarsBonfire

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Actually, Dream, your saying that gay marriage would effect straight people isn't exactly true: many of us would benefit from it. Marriage is a 4.3 billion dollar racket in these United States on a yearly basis. I myself, used to do portrait photography of GLBT couples, and leather folk, who were never made to feel welcome at the local Olan Mills studio. If the US were to suddenly allow gay marriage, think of the increase of business to caterers, hall rental, bands, alcohol sales, bakeries, limo rental, hotel for the honeymoon, travel agents, tux rental, photographers...

It would be a shot in the arm to an industry that is otherwise beginning to die off, thanks to so many people deciding to just live together happily, rather than spoil it by the bonds of matrimony.

(in reply to thishereboi)

Post #: 201

RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/28/2009 5:49:58 AM

kdsub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Do you respect the marriages of other religions…will then lets have a homosexual religion…make it tax except then let them marry other gays. This makes as much sense as your marriage and religion argument.

Butch

Butch, we already have gay churches where gays can go and get married. It is not legally recognized by the state, but they can have a ceramony and a minister just like any other church wedding.

Thanks thishereboi...I was just trying to shot down the notion that marriage was strictly a religious word... and used a silly example of a church based on homosexuality rather then a conventional church that allows gay marriage.

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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/28/2009 6:23:37 AM

ShellyD

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quote:

ORIGINAL: nelly33

ummm... you're out of touch with reality. if you really would do anything to fight this horrible unspeakable oppression, then why haven't you done it already. A lack of understanding is basically saying you'd kill somebody because they disagree with you. A much easier solution would be moving to Canada, no need for the death. Stop talking about things you'll never do, like taking up arms, because if you were serious you wouldn't be spouting off on the internet. Drop the act, and if you want to have an intelligent conversation, leave out the stupid melodramatics.

and one I second, OP, really the dramatic sensationalist ravings you make are doing harm to your credibility.

< Message edited by ShellyD -- 5/28/2009 6:42:00 AM >

(in reply to nelly33)

Post #: 203

RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/28/2009 6:48:41 AM

NihilusZero

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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

Try listening to people, instead of thinking those who support Prop 8 as bigots, ask them why they support it.........

Except that with an issue quite like this, there are no reasons to support it that aren't bigotry-based.

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Post #: 204

RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/28/2009 8:16:16 AM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: beargonewild

Yet you have the option of a civil union or a religious union. Why can't a gay man like myself have that same choice? Why should we have to settle for one recourse? What about the gays who are religious and want a church ceremony because a marriage under God is part of their belief system? Why should a gay man who is Jewish have to have a civil union and not a ceremony in a synagogue?

Now you are arguing two different issues though.

Even if gay marriage is legal it does not oblige any religion to accept gay marriage, and I'm sure you are well aware of the position of most religions in that regard.

(in reply to beargonewild)

Post #: 205

RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/28/2009 8:17:22 AM

philosophy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

Try listening to people, instead of thinking those who support Prop 8 as bigots, ask them why they support it.........

Except that with an issue quite like this, there are no reasons to support it that aren't bigotry-based.

.......there are shades of bigotry. There's the full on, make 'em burn bigot........and there's the 'well, my dad said so, so i unthnkingly agree' bigot. Possibly there's not a lot can be done for the former........but to lump the latter in with them is, in a sense, also bigotted.
One doesn't make a lot of headway slapping bigots until they agree with you. The best, most effective approach is to work with people until positions change. i linked a while back to a story where a man in his old age came to the realisation that his bigotted, racist youth was wrong. It was something of a shock to him. It just proves that even the most bogotted people can be turned around. One doesn't do that by behaving exactly as they predict.

(in reply to NihilusZero)

Post #: 206

RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/28/2009 8:20:53 AM

beargonewild

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rulemylife......what I was trying to point out is not the obligation of religious group's acceptance but the inequality of the options available to hetero couples as opposed to the options available to gay couples. I do agree that religious acceptance of gay unions is another matter and for it's own separate discussion.

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Post #: 207

RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/28/2009 8:30:13 AM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

No reason for us to go on I guess...to me there is no difference...just another prejudiced reason…I was discussing the discrimination against gays though history… always worse in every instance of time than the plight of other groups… EVERY case.

In EVERY case huh?

So when was it again that the entire gay population of this country was put into slavery?

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 208

RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/28/2009 8:37:55 AM

beargonewild

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

No reason for us to go on I guess...to me there is no difference...just another prejudiced reason…I was discussing the discrimination against gays though history… always worse in every instance of time than the plight of other groups… EVERY case.

In EVERY case huh?

So when was it again that the entire gay population of this country was put into slavery?

More accurate to say that wasn't the case though thousands were among the 6 million people sent to concentrations camps and then fed to the furnaces. Though it does make me wonder exactly how many that were killed in this country from being beaten to death or driven to suicide because they were "different?"

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Post #: 209

RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/28/2009 8:42:02 AM

philosophy

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FR

...i don't think there's any purpose served by engaging in a game of 'my holocaust is bigger than yours'. To discriminate against the LGBT community is bigotry......and quite frankly it's wrong if it affects 100 people or 100,000 people. Bigotry is, basically, wrong.

(in reply to beargonewild)

Post #: 210

RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/28/2009 8:52:55 AM

beargonewild

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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

FR

...i don't think there's any purpose served by engaging in a game of 'my holocaust is bigger than yours'. To discriminate against the LGBT community is bigotry......and quite frankly it's wrong if it affects 100 people or 100,000 people. Bigotry is, basically, wrong.

My intent was not to engage in this was worse than this. Simply to point out a discrepancy and hoped to clear up a bit of misinformation. If that was how my comment was perceived then maybe it's time I walk away from this topic.

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Post #: 211

RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/28/2009 9:00:00 AM

philosophy

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Bear, you're on the side of the angels. Others have attempted to turn this into a 'my holocaust is bigger than your holocaust' and all you've done is be sensible. Please don't walk away....the wind may whip up your kilt as you go and we can't have Greedy Top over-excited

(in reply to beargonewild)

Post #: 212

RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/28/2009 9:02:42 AM

GreedyTop

Posts: 52100
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too late, Phil.. *grin*

and Bear, I agree with Phil..please.. you are a voice of reason....

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Post #: 213

RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/28/2009 9:08:43 AM

oceanwinds

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Hello DreamGoddess
I got through half the thread and decided to post now. You know it is the western religions that oppose same-sex marriage. They are rigid in their beliefs and seriously fighting with gun power, knife power etc is not the answer. Yes it is discouraging to have this and to see it not change very much, but step back it is changing. People dont unlearn years of bigotry, especially when it was brainwashed in them through their ancestors. Now though a shift has been happening, and it is at least a question, instead of a total ban. I understand your frustration, since it would be horrible to let a bible of people beliefs tell me who i can or cannot love. It cuts at the very soul within and we have to fight so much our own upbringing.

In the 60's i was a peace activist and stood for rights of all people, and i still do through peaceful means. I am not a lesbian but i frown deeply on anyone telling someone who they can love or not. This was not suppose to be a Christian nation, the founding fathers were not puritans. However we have to still swim through the mud of puritanical mind set.

Now on creating a war, let me ask you somethings please?
Do you believe it was right to slaughter so many native americans, or convert them into christianity? If you don't how can you justify doing the same?

Do you believe that fighting and killing anyone for your basic moral principles is valued, because this has been done to you and others throughout the history of mankind?

Does walking their walk really accomplish anything?

I choose to walk quietly, i will not become like them. One day gays will be able to marry and it will stick, hopefully because enough people can show them they are not sick disease crazy people. Only way to counteract what many believe is to show them another way, and that is being ourselves. It has worked for others as well as me.

Some food to think on,)
oceanwinds

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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/28/2009 9:14:56 AM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: beargonewild

More accurate to say that wasn't the case though thousands were among the 6 million people sent to concentrations camps and then fed to the furnaces. Though it does make me wonder exactly how many that were killed in this country from being beaten to death or driven to suicide because they were "different?"

And I would agree.

My argument is not against gay marriage or the fact gays have suffered not only discrimination but violence directed at them.

My argument is against those on here who want to put forth the idea that that the gay community has suffered more than any in the history of mankind.

(in reply to beargonewild)

Post #: 215

RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/28/2009 9:46:57 AM

FatDomDaddy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GYPZYQUEEN

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

FR reply here...

quote:

10,000 years of human history back up marriage between a man and a woman.

Even in times when homosexuality flourished, there was never, ever any concept of
homosexual marriage.

never say NEVER...do nto mistake opinion as FACT

IN 1576 Pedro de Gandova reports in
Sexual Diversity of Indian Culture that some Amazonian Amazon women each have a woman to serve them ( as they were warriors);
to whom she is MARRIED..They maintain a heterogender ( his term)relationship..If the marriage terminated..they could marry a man without any trouble.

Among Alaskan ppls..such as the KaSAK if there were no sons a daughter couLD be designated as a son.. and marry
and it was/is accepted...
We have the berduce of North America who were in long lasting relationships
We also have thee unique Sarmation ENEREES..Pristesses who were men..and had male wives...
There is also a group in ALBANIA TODAY..
who take on all traits of men in order to survive harsh conditions..they take wives as well.. and unlike men they CANNOT be killed.

I have researched archeomythology for 16 years and would love to go on and on and I might tomorrow but in the meantime anyone who wants to message ..I can give you scads of wonderful book refs and images to SUPPORT the fact that homosexual union was supported through out history
and HOMOPHOBIA finds its roots in the domestication of animals yes..
to make a long story shrot..
once setteled and observing studs and herds and managing breeding the herd.."man" became "like the stud" and wanted no alternate behavioirs others than for reproduction...increasaing his "herd.."
also
and about marriage as a sacred institution
BULLSHIT...
it is bondage to insure paternity...and control women sexuall and has been around for about 500 years as we know it today in its modfied and insideous form
NOW AS FOR a UNION...yes!!!
TWO BELOVEDS SHOULD HAVE THE RIGHT to be
unified as ONE..legally...........
GQ

Where do I start...

How about with the myth of the Wonder Women.

Amazon's are about as real as Elves, Atlantians and Martians. Even in ancient texts, Amazon's tribes are always just beyond the reach of the known civilizations. And while some Amazon Warrior/Hunting Mythology might be traced to historical peoples such as Scythians or Sarmatians, at best (and this is a big stretch) women in those civilizations may have had a certain equality with men. OH... and Scythians or Sarmatians marriages were between Men and Women. And please don't and give me Amazonian Worship Cults in Greek and Roman Civilizations as proof of an actual Amazon Civilization.

As to the other examples... I am sure there are probably other 'exceptions that prove the rule' in addition to the ones you names but as exceptions tend to be, they are insignificant to Human Civilizations and they hardly present a precedent for male to male or female to female marriage.

In fact, at best all you have shown is that same sex relationships were tolerated in extreme situations and or cult worship. Even then, one of the two parties took on the appearance and lifestyle of either a man or a woman so that such a union would be perceived by and shown to said communities as union between a man and a woman. Again, hardly a precedent for same sex , living as same sex marriage.

If the State of ______ wants to declare born male Jim actually and legally now female Jane and thus sanctions Jane's marriage to Harry than that is a lawful "marriage" between a man and a woman. It is the exact same thing as The Cheyenne Tribe stating that born male Little Horse, is actually living female Little Horse and sanctions a marriage with Younger Bear. The Tribe is sanctioning a male to female marriage under their laws and customs.

So I stand by the concept of male to male living as male and male, and female to female living as female and female marriage is unknown in 10,000 years of Human Civilization.

(in reply to GYPZYQUEEN)

Post #: 216

RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/28/2009 10:01:30 AM

kdsub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

No reason for us to go on I guess...to me there is no difference...just another prejudiced reason…I was discussing the discrimination against gays though history… always worse in every instance of time than the plight of other groups… EVERY case.

In EVERY case huh?

So when was it again that the entire gay population of this country was put into slavery?

Rule you also are missing my point.... do you think there were no gay slaves?...in every case of discrimination a gay person carries two burdens on his back.. Gay slaves were discriminated against by fellow slaves as well as owners... so they had both the burden of slavery and discrimination for being gay.

Because gays suffered more through the ages even if in groups such as slaves... You can compare their plight today with discriminations of the past.

Today as an example descendants of slavery don't need to jump over brooms to be married...but gay descendants of slavery cannot be married in many states. So they may have “come a long way baby”… but not as far as their straight peers. Why?…because they are homosexual.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 5/28/2009 10:05:01 AM >

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Post #: 217

RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/28/2009 10:46:09 AM

philosophy

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...you do know the Amazon is a river, and Amazonian usually refers to people living on it as opposed to comic book characters?

(in reply to FatDomDaddy)

Post #: 218

RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/28/2009 11:06:38 AM

Truthiness

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DreamGoddess666

Giving the two different names implies that marriage is somehow "above" civil unions. It should be called the same thing no matter what. Either everyone should be allowed to marry, or NO ONE should be. Giving it a different name is segregation.

I vote for both...everyone AND noone.

As it stands right now...homosexuals CAN get married anywhere in the country. Nothing is stopping them from having a ceremony in the manner of their choosing. The thing is getting the government to recognize those marriages.

Personally I'm all for justt getting the federal government out of marriage altogether as well. Many of the government given benefits for marriage are outdated or need reworked anyways...so just rework them so that marriage isn't a requirement for getting those benefits.

Then let people do what they want, like it should be...and meanwhile us Christians don't have to deal with the government making laws in support of sin.

Freedom for everyone without stepping on anyone's toes...seems like a win/win.

(in reply to DreamGoddess666)

Post #: 219

RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/28/2009 11:07:09 AM

BitaTruble

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::snipped to address the meat::

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

I am sure there are probably other 'exceptions that prove the rule' in addition to the ones you names but as exceptions tend to be, they are insignificant to Human Civilizations and they hardly present a precedent for male to male or female to female marriage.

So I stand by the concept of male to male living as male and male, and female to female living as female and female marriage is unknown in 10,000 years of Human Civilization.

It's okay to step into the present, right? The thread is, after all, about a current issue, Prop 8, not ancient history.

•4/1/01: The Netherlands becomes the first nation to legalize same-sex marriage.

•1/30/03: Belgium becomes the second nation in the world to legalize same-sex marriage. At least one of the spouses must has lived in the country for a minimum of three months.

•7/3/05: Spain legalizes same-sex marriage, becoming the third nation behind the Netherlands and Belgium to grant gay marriage.

There's more, but the current standing of countries which recognize legal gay marriage stands at 7.

•4/1/09: A parliamentary vote of 261 in favor and 22 opposed eliminated the legal distinction between gay/lesbian and straight couples by making marriage laws gender neutral. Sweden became the seventh country to legalize same-sex marriage.

There are several more countries which recognize civil unions of gays. Some are better than others, but this is not insignificant to human civilization.

All of the following countries either have civil unions or legal recognition of gay marriage.

•Canada
•Mexico

•United States:

•North East
•Connecticut
•District of Columbia
•New Hampshire
•New Jersey
•New York
•Maine
•Massachusetts
•Vermont

•Plains/Midwest
•Iowa

•North West
•Oregon
•Washington

•South West
California used to be listed here. ::sighs:: There are still 18,000 legal gay marriages in CA though. A most excellent precedent for a court battle.

•Belgium
•Croatia
•Denmark
•Finland
•France
•Germany
•Hungary
•Iceland
•Luxembourg
•Netherlands
•New Zealand
•Norway
•Portugal
•Spain
•Sweden
•Switzerland
•United Kingdom
•South Africa

This is not insignificant to human civilization.

Gays, bisexuals, transsexual, transgender etc. are not insignificant to human civilization. Even if there was only one of us.. even one is not insignificant to human civilization.

We matter, k? We matter same as any het on the planet. Exactly the same, in fact. All we want is what hets have, nothing more and to ask us to accept anything less is asking us to accept bigotry and discrimination simply based on a body part. That's all it is you know. Dangly bits are not allowed to marry other dangly bits. Vulvas are not allowed to marry other vulvas. That seems so.. odd to me. We are more than the sum of our parts.. same as hets.

Edited because I did my homework but forgot to show my work!

Source: Gaylife

< Message edited by BitaTruble -- 5/28/2009 11:13:41 AM >

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