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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/27/2009 8:52:33 PM

tazzygirl

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Native Americans had marriage ceremonies... long before the Europeans hit.

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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/27/2009 8:54:08 PM

MstrPBK

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
you do realize marriage predates recorded history, yes?

(I Have not read the whole thread here but) while Marriage predates recorded history; there are indications within early recorded history that marriage was not strictly Male/Female thing either ... as if anyone here is surprised by that.

MstrPBK
St. Paul, MN USA

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 142

RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/27/2009 8:57:55 PM

Sanity

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I'm pretty sure that in many western cultures, marriage was originally a rite proclaiming the bride to be property of the groom and the family of the groom whether she was gained through treaty, purchase, or as a benefit of a successful raid on an enemy city.

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Post #: 143

RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/27/2009 8:58:34 PM

kdsub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: nelly33

ummm... it doesn't make sense because no other religious marriages are tax exempt, so why would gay marriages? and i didn't say that gays had it easy, i just said that it would be wrong to compare their plight to that of the people involved in the civil rights movement. and also, that civil union/marriage argument is not MY idea... it's one you would find in scholarly journals if you are actually interested in finding a solution that may actually happen, rather than what you want in an ideal world

No but the churches that deny marriages to gays are tax-exempt.

Nelly33 I am not trying to make our discussion adversarial but I am trying to get you to see where gays always have had it worse than other group discriminations.

I can't seem to get through to you that they have had it worse than the plight of the people in the civil rights movement... Remember if you were black in America in the 1950’s for instance you were discriminated against because of your skin color... Now believe me there were gay blacks in the 1950’s and they were discriminated against because of their color AND because of their gayness... My math comes up with a double discrimination... how does yours add up.

It is not just blacks, Jews….Latinos….Muslims…any group you can come up with that have or are currently suffering discrimination have gay members of their groups. These gays suffer discrimination from their peers as well as the discrimination of the group.

Just wondering… am I clear in what I am saying?

Butch

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Post #: 144

RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/27/2009 8:59:19 PM

MstrPBK

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

quote:

ORIGINAL: nelly33
As for solutions, I think it is first important to realize that marraige was originally a religious institution, to make a union holy in the eyes of God.

No.

Before even that it was social statement between two persons to others they respected in the local community. NO church or religion involved.

MstrPBK
St .Paul, MN USa

(in reply to Aylee)

Post #: 145

RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/27/2009 8:59:36 PM

nelly33

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I didn't purposely misunderstand you, although I may have... what I was referring to was the "bride price," where you said women would be sold for the bride price... I may have misunderstood, but that's how i interpreted it. i guess i didn't really make my point clear enough. what i should've clarified was that marriage... as it has been seen for majority of the history of the united states, has mostly, although not always, taken place in a religious setting. in my mind, and i know others may disagree, to say that marriage in the united state isn't a sybolic thing rather than a legal one, are kind of nitpicking, since civil unions do exist. I know a lot of people will disagree, citing the seperate but equal point, but that is just my opinion, since people that get civil unions enjoy the same rights as married couples, as far as i know anyway.

(in reply to Aylee)

Post #: 146

RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/27/2009 9:03:54 PM

nelly33

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Joined: 8/17/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

No but the churches that deny marriages to gays are tax-exempt.

Nelly33 I am not trying to make our discussion adversarial but I am trying to get you to see where gays always have had it worse than other group discriminations.

I can't seem to get through to you that they have had it worse than the plight of the people in the civil rights movement... Remember if you were black in America in the 1950’s for instance you were discriminated against because of your skin color... Now believe me there were gay blacks in the 1950’s and they were discriminated against because of their color AND because of their gayness... My math comes up with a double discrimination... how does yours add up.

It is not just blacks, Jews….Latinos….Muslims…any group you can come up with that have or are currently suffering discrimination have gay members of their groups. These gays suffer discrimination from their peers as well as the discrimination of the group.

Just wondering… am I clear in what I am saying?

Butch

You are clear in your point here. And i agree that gay blacks, or gay latinos, etc have it worse than either strait blacks or latinos, but my point is that during the civil rights movement, the people persecuted had it worse than those now who cannot get married. And yes i do see your point that gays get it from all sides, including their own ethnicities, but i don't really think that it invalidates my arguement. As for "double discrimination," i'll grant you that gay blacks back in the 60's had it worse than strait blacks... but i'd also argue that a strait black in teh 60's has it worse than a gay black today.

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 147

RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/27/2009 9:05:21 PM

nelly33

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Joined: 8/17/2008
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[/quote]

Before even that it was social statement between two persons to others they respected in the local community. NO church or religion involved.

MstrPBK
St .Paul, MN USa
[/quote]

but i believe that the whole point is that we are argueing over the word marriage, versus civil unions... i would hesitate to say that it was called marriage back then... although maybe you can show me an instance i am mistaken? i admit that your point is not my forte.

(in reply to MstrPBK)

Post #: 148

RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/27/2009 9:19:27 PM

kdsub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: nelly33

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

No but the churches that deny marriages to gays are tax-exempt.

Nelly33 I am not trying to make our discussion adversarial but I am trying to get you to see where gays always have had it worse than other group discriminations.

I can't seem to get through to you that they have had it worse than the plight of the people in the civil rights movement... Remember if you were black in America in the 1950’s for instance you were discriminated against because of your skin color... Now believe me there were gay blacks in the 1950’s and they were discriminated against because of their color AND because of their gayness... My math comes up with a double discrimination... how does yours add up.

It is not just blacks, Jews….Latinos….Muslims…any group you can come up with that have or are currently suffering discrimination have gay members of their groups. These gays suffer discrimination from their peers as well as the discrimination of the group.

Just wondering… am I clear in what I am saying?

Butch

You are clear in your point here. And i agree that gay blacks, or gay latinos, etc have it worse than either strait blacks or latinos, but my point is that during the civil rights movement, the people persecuted had it worse than those now who cannot get married. And yes i do see your point that gays get it from all sides, including their own ethnicities, but i don't really think that it invalidates my arguement. As for "double discrimination," i'll grant you that gay blacks back in the 60's had it worse than strait blacks... but i'd also argue that a strait black in teh 60's has it worse than a gay black today.

No reason for us to go on I guess...to me there is no difference...just another prejudiced reason…I was discussing the discrimination against gays though history… always worse in every instance of time than the plight of other groups… EVERY case.

Do you think that black gays of the 1950’s did not want to get married? I challenge you to find any instance in time…up to today… where another single group of people has suffered more discrimination than homosexuals.

How can you reasonably say that any group of the past had it harder than homosexuals….when there were homosexuals then as today experiencing even worse discrimination?

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 5/27/2009 9:20:54 PM >

_____________________________

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to nelly33)

Post #: 149

RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/27/2009 9:22:24 PM

CruelNUnsual

Posts: 624
Joined: 9/28/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual
the privileges referred to in the 14th amendment are privileges under FEDERAL law, and prevents the states from overriding Federal law. Marriage is not a federal issue, so the 14th amendment doesnt apply.

Well, I have to disagree again. The 14th amendment applies because Prop 8 discriminates against a class of people and does not discriminate against another class of people and No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States. Marriage falls under that 'any' law provision. It doesn't say any federal law.. just any law. The 14th was put into place for exactly issues such as this one. To prevent states from being able to abridge the rights of the individual. The right of the individual is what is at stake here, the issue of marriage is just the catalyst. Either everyone from the Atlantic to the Pacific and Canada to Mexico has the right to marry the person of their choice or no one does. Anything else is discrimination. Simple as that.

I guess we'll see when it gets to the SCOTUS, then, eh? My reading of 14 is based on pretty solid ground:

"The author of the equal protection clause, John A. Bingham of Ohio, said a half dozen times before and after the adoption of the Fourteenth Amendment that it “takes from no State any right that ever pertained to it.” He further pointed out the language does not read no State may deny the equal protection “of its laws, but of the laws.” He is of course referring to the laws of due process (law of the land), i.e., the administration of justice. "

If it had the broader meaning that you are trying to attribute to it, then no State law that granted a "right" could ever be repealed or made more restrictive, obviously an untenable position.

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 150

RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/27/2009 9:23:56 PM

nelly33

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Joined: 8/17/2008
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i guess my point is that you could turn that to encompass any combo of minorities... sure a Jew gets prejudiced against... but an Arabic Jew? How can you not see that Arabics are much more bigoted against than Jews? It just seems to me that the arguement is flawed... as for a more prejudiced against group... i would say that in America, Arabs are much more persecuted than gays, and in history, I would say the Jews have been more persecuted... although i see the way that you could say that arabic gays, or jewish gays are more bigoted against, and again, i would agree with you, i just think it is kind of a flawed arguement... perhaps we will just have to agree to disagree on this one.

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 151

RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/27/2009 9:24:44 PM

kdsub

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The very fact that you are bringing up discrimination of the past to compare to today means what happened in the past is meaningful to you... then consider the past of gays...If you do then you will see why your comparison is faulty.

You can’t just pick today without considering the history in using the severity of comparisions.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 152

RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/27/2009 9:26:56 PM

kdsub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: nelly33

i guess my point is that you could turn that to encompass any combo of minorities... sure a Jew gets prejudiced against... but an Arabic Jew? How can you not see that Arabics are much more bigoted against than Jews? It just seems to me that the arguement is flawed... as for a more prejudiced against group... i would say that in America, Arabs are much more persecuted than gays, and in history, I would say the Jews have been more persecuted... although i see the way that you could say that arabic gays, or jewish gays are more bigoted against, and again, i would agree with you, i just think it is kind of a flawed arguement... perhaps we will just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Yes I guess we will

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to nelly33)

Post #: 153

RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/27/2009 9:31:22 PM

nelly33

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Joined: 8/17/2008
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i am not disagreeing with you when you say that gays have been persecuted throughout history... i just think your idea that they win the gold medal in being persecuted is false... hows this, go ask a black gay man in which way he has been judged the harshest... or as an Arab if they think gays have it tougher in the USA than they do. I would say myself that going just on today, Arabs have it tougher, and in recent history, both black and Jews have had it worse. Personally, I do not understand why you (and I) are arguing over who has it worse, since the only prize when you win is a shittier life.

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 154

RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/27/2009 9:40:44 PM

tazzygirl

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Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

The very fact that you are bringing up discrimination of the past to compare to today means what happened in the past is meaningful to you... then consider the past of gays...If you do then you will see why your comparison is faulty.

You can’t just pick today without considering the history in using the severity of comparisions.

Butch

we can talk about the discrimination of the Jews... of that of native americans... or even those who have aids. no one group has it worse than any other who has suffered.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 155

RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/27/2009 9:41:00 PM

kdsub

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lol... ok my question...go ask a black man if he has experienced discrimination... get an answer...remember it... Now ask a gay black man if he has experienced the same discrimination as the straight black man...he will say yes... Now ask the gay black man if he has experienced discrimination for being gay… remember it… Now go back to the straight black man and ask him if he has suffered homosexual discrimination...he will say no… Now who has it harshest?

Same with the gay Arab in your example...he may think he has it worse than gays in America...if he is not imprisoned or killed for his orientation...but he will know he has it worse than the straight Arab in his own country.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to nelly33)

Post #: 156

RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/27/2009 9:48:20 PM

nelly33

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Joined: 8/17/2008
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this is an invalid argument... of course somebody who is a member of 2 minorities will have it worse than somebody of only one minority... i already granted that point, and it really doesn't prove anything. again, the same thing could be said for a black jew... of course the black jew has it worse than a black christian or a white jew... gays do not have a monopoly on this point... it seems an invalid arguement to me.

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 157

RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/27/2009 9:53:42 PM

DavanKael

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I'm pro any people who choose to marry doing so in any configurations they so choose (As long as all involved agree to take responsibility for any children of the union on an on-going basis regardless of whether or not the union stays together). My ideas, however, aren't where the law is nor do I think it'll be that way in a decade or even a century.
Not marginalizing at all here but gay rights have come a long way in the past 20 years. While I support the idea behind everyone should have equal freedoms (And with them responsibilities), sometimes it takes time and a dedication to living your beliefs and working long-term toward the change you wish to see. It's not as sexy as raising a huge fit or as provocative as suggesting violence but I think it has a far greater likelihood of success.
Best wishes,
Davan

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Post #: 158

RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/27/2009 10:04:16 PM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DavanKael

I'm pro any people who choose to marry doing so in any configurations they so choose (As long as all involved agree to take responsibility for any children of the union on an on-going basis regardless of whether or not the union stays together). My ideas, however, aren't where the law is nor do I think it'll be that way in a decade or even a century.
Not marginalizing at all here but gay rights have come a long way in the past 20 years. While I support the idea behind everyone should have equal freedoms (And with them responsibilities), sometimes it takes time and a dedication to living your beliefs and working long-term toward the change you wish to see. It's not as sexy as raising a huge fit or as provocative as suggesting violence but I think it has a far greater likelihood of success.
Best wishes,
Davan

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to DavanKael)

Post #: 159

RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/27/2009 10:06:06 PM

DomImus

Posts: 2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DreamGoddess666
What a jackass. It's people like you that piss people like me off so much.

I said in another thread a month or two ago that I would vote against a Prop 8-ish initiative if it ever appeared on a ballot in my state. I have to say that after reading this thread - and particularly your comments - I am slightly but measurably less supportive of the marriage equality movement. It would be really tough to support any cause of yours no matter how fair minded or well intentioned it was.

(in reply to DreamGoddess666)

Post #: 160

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