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animals can tell right from wrong - 5/27/2009 6:09:04 AM   
LadyEllen


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Status: offline 		http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/wildlife/5373379/Animals-can-tell-right-from-wrong.html

fascinating stuff!

mind you, I've observed little evidence of this with my feline horde (sharing, helping each other etc), although it is notable how although the adult males will fight with the kittens and could easily kill them, they seem to know how much is too much and certainly dont use their full strength on them when playing.

but then, cats are not meant to live in social groups as mine do I guess?

E



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RE: animals can tell right from wrong - 5/27/2009 6:24:46 AM   
GreedyTop


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Status: offline 		interesting article, LAdy E... thank you :) 

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RE: animals can tell right from wrong - 5/27/2009 6:33:58 AM   
subtlebutterfly


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Status: offline 		aw loved that article..fascinating :O)

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RE: animals can tell right from wrong - 5/27/2009 7:15:53 AM   
LaTigresse


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Status: offline 		As someone that has spent her life around animals......I am glad that the scientific community is finally accepting what many of us knew all along.

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RE: animals can tell right from wrong - 5/27/2009 7:22:52 AM   
LadyConstanze


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen


but then, cats are not meant to live in social groups as mine do I guess?

E




Actually cats are very social animals, they are territorial but social and they have likes and dislikes just like humans. I have 2 cats and while they occasionally have a little fight, they usually hang out together, hunt together, socialize with other cats, have some cat enemies (usually the smaller one of the 2 taunts them and then hides behind his big brother, sometimes it goes wrong if big brother is not there), other friends also have a pack of cats and they do have a pecking order, some of them are friends, others don't get on so well...

I think it's a myth that cats are antisocial creatures, observing cats who live together makes me wonder a bit about the claim of them being so solitary, but then the cats possibly never had the benefit of reading all those books about them not liking other cats and just behave like they want.

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RE: animals can tell right from wrong - 5/27/2009 8:28:01 AM   
outlier


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Status: offline 		Thank You Lady E.

I will share this article with others.
Only in my case, I expect to benefit
from doing so.

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RE: animals can tell right from wrong - 5/27/2009 8:48:36 AM   
LotusSong


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

As someone that has spent her life around animals......I am glad that the scientific community is finally accepting what many of us knew all along.

My thoughts exactly.

I have two dogs. They each have their dishes that are side by side on the floor. They will not eat from each other's dish. If one of the dogs' dish is empty and the other one still full, the one who's dish is empty comes and gets me to fill it instead of eating the other dog's food.

I have four cats that share a community dish that form a line to eat and will always let the oldest cat eat first.

This morning, my cockatiel was greeting the morning sun by doing his shrill repetative call. I heard one of my cats emit what sounded like a "oh knock it off!" meow-whine. The bird immediatly got the message and all was quiet.

I could go on and on :)

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RE: animals can tell right from wrong - 5/27/2009 10:56:41 AM   
sophia37


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Status: offline 		Interesting about the whales. They have three times the amount the spindle cells than we do. On the other hand they're way more than three times as large. lolol

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RE: animals can tell right from wrong - 5/27/2009 1:18:20 PM   
lazarus1983


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Status: offline 		I've seen limited examples in my various pets and animals before. Two cats staying by the side of a dog as it slowly died. One dog becoming worried when someone would play dead.

It make sense, though, that animals would have to develop something of a moral code, or social compact, in order to survive together. Especially with carnivores and hunters.

Hell, humans are animals too, and there are plenty that have not developed any kind of morality.

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RE: animals can tell right from wrong - 5/27/2009 1:25:52 PM   
Vendaval


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Status: offline 		  Thank you for posting this, Lady E.  I had a household that included felines and canines and there were definate social dynamics between members of the same species and the different species.
 
1 of the cats was solitary, 2 were buddies.  The dogs all seemed to get along, pairing up along the way.  And in general they all treated each other pretty well with the exception being when I gave out bones the dogs.  Then they would act territorial, but not over dry kibble.
 
The solitary cat would sit on her stool and swat any other creature that came too close to her, sometimes with a warning hiss and growl and sometimes not. 
 
All of them would react differently when I was upset or feeling ill, pressing close to comfort me, licking my hands, etc.

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RE: animals can tell right from wrong - 5/27/2009 1:34:48 PM   
lazarus1983


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Status: offline 		Actually Robert Heinlein wrote of this back in 1980:

"As one drives through the bushveldt of East Africa it is easy to spot herds of baboons grazing on the ground. But not by looking at the ground. Instead you look up and spot the lookout, an adult male posted on a limb of a tree where he has a clear view all around him - which is why you can spot him; he has to be where he can see a leopard in time to give the alarm. On the ground a leopard can catch a baboon...but if a baboon is warned in time to reach the trees, he can outclimb a leopard. The lookout is a young male assigned to that duty and there he will stay, until the bull of the herd sends up another male to relieve him...

...The third highest level of morality is to work, fight, and sometimes die for a group larger than the unit family - an extended family, a herd, a tribe - and take another look at that baboon on watch; he's at that moral level. I don't think baboon language is complex enough to permit them to discuss such abstract notions as "morality" or "duty" or "loyalty" - but it is evident that baboons do operate morally and do exhibit the traits of duty and loyalty; we see them in action. Call it "instinct" if you like - but remember that assigning a name toa  phenomenon does not explain it."

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RE: animals can tell right from wrong - 5/27/2009 2:29:29 PM   
LadyEllen


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Status: offline 		I'm not so sure its a sign of "morality" as such, but I do notice that the two oldest cats in my horde will stand back and let the kittens eat first - including the two adults that were their first offspring last year. On the other hand, the male adult we kept from last year's first litters doesnt wait for anyone else - he has to have first taste of every bowl, moving from one to the next as they're filled until he gets pushed out by kittens!

E

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RE: animals can tell right from wrong - 5/27/2009 3:02:23 PM   
PyrotheClown


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Status: offline 		I find it hilarious that we(humans) are always amazed to find "human" characteristics that are also carried by animals, we forget, WE'RE ANIMALS.. Our brains are made of the same mushy meat stuff theirs is, the main difference being that we have an over active imaginative ones, that have a tendencies for amazing perceptions gaps(which isn't all bad, it's what allows us to understand such things as abstract thought, and is the mental tool we use to conceive almost all of our technology)..
It's almost as bad as how we underestimate our own capabilities...

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RE: animals can tell right from wrong - 5/27/2009 3:25:29 PM   
RCdc


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Status: offline 		I would disagree at calling it 'morality'.  What would that chimp do if he had no access to food at all?  Still let the older female feed?  But then, it would be inhuman to test that hey.
 
Ever watched 'Springwatch'.   That is some scarey programming when it comes to self preservation.
Or Meerkat Manor?  I wouldn't dig being a sister to the alpha.
 
Empathy however, I can see that in action.  But when it comes down to it, animals will usually look out for it's own young, or those that they have adopted as family or a pack - it's a way of assuring gentic/family survival.  But morality?  Not so much.
 
the.dark.

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RE: animals can tell right from wrong - 5/27/2009 3:51:35 PM   
PyrotheClown


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

I would disagree at calling it 'morality'.  What would that chimp do if he had no access to food at all?  Still let the older female feed?  But then, it would be inhuman to test that hey.

It's also not a complete test, unless of course you conduct it with people as well ,as a control(if comparing "Human" concept of "morality" as opposed to a chimps.)

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