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Undermining a Good Foundation - 5/28/2009 8:46:58 PM   
lovingpet


Posts: 4270
Joined: 6/19/2005
Status: offline 		This question is tied to a situation I am watching and am curious about.  A couple that I would call "fantastic" in all those big time areas including compatibility, communication, trust, respect, etc, and all of a sudden it becomes evident that something is amiss.  To be fair, the relationship is under a year old.  They have a long journey, I know.

Still it is interesting to me.  The dominant LOVES big mental play.  I am not talking about incidental or session length stuff.  I am talking about toying in areas that would have major life impacts on them both and others in their lives.  She LOVES it.  She eats it up and plays into his hand every single time.  It is part of the overall intensity to her.  Interestingly enough, it seems to be hindering the building of trust between them.

The dominant approached her about his concerns that she did not trust him with her thoughts, feelings, fantasies, and such.  He told her flatly that, although she seemed more than able to trust him with her body, she didn't seem to trust him with her mind.  It was crushing to him as he wants so much to go farther and deeper with this girl.  I would go so far as to say, that he wants her to have a permanent place with him.

The submissive believes she trusts him absolutely.  She does not believe she is withholding anything.  She is much newer to things than he is and still coming to terms with a lot of things about herself.  She claims her biggest reason for not disclosing at this point is trying to get a handle on what it is she actually thinks about various things.  She finds it unfair to drop convoluted thought in his lap and expect him to untangle them for her.  The interesting part is that she also asserted that it was these mental journeys that do at the very least dent, chip at, or shake her trust in him in this aspect.  Keep in mind that she LOVES this part of their play.  At the same time, it is working against her right now as she establishes her trust for him.

Now to my curiosity.  I am curious to know how mental play (more commonly mind*#%!s) affect your trust in your dominant partner.  When was it introduced?  How did it help or hinder the forming of the relationship's foundation?  Feel free to address this beyond these questions, but I am interested in how other submissives process such play.  I really have no interest in opinions about how this couple plays, the individuals, or anything of the sort.  Dominants with experience relating to this, please by all means chime in.

lovingpet

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RE: Undermining a Good Foundation - 5/28/2009 10:45:27 PM   
ChasingOblivion


Posts: 125
Joined: 5/19/2009
Status: offline 		I think it's a bad idea under any circumstances. There are some things you just shouldn't screw with, EVER,  and I can't possibly see any benefit in deliberately undermining trust in a relationship where trust is key.
This is something my husband used to do for fun. Except it wasn't play, at least not on my end. He was a cruel, manipulative, immature jackass, and I will never tolerate that crap from anyone again.

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RE: Undermining a Good Foundation - 5/29/2009 3:23:50 AM   
LafayetteLady


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Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingpet

I am not talking about incidental or session length stuff.  I am talking about toying in areas that would have major life impacts on them both and others in their lives.  .....Interestingly enough, it seems to be hindering the building of trust between them.



Realistically, this is crossing the line.  He likes the "mental stuff", she seems to get off on it (on the surface anyway).  But this should be a clue to both of them that things can be taken too far.  He isn't a mental health profressional, and neither is she (presumably), yet, they are both willing to play games that have the potential to cause long term problems.  If she got off on going out on a city street hoping to be mugged, would he support her in this or realize it was too dangerous?

I'm sorry but I see this as stupidity on both their parts.  He is too stupid to see the potential for harm because he's having "fun" and she is too stupid to figure out that she isn't letting him in because at least her subconscious is trying to protect her from harm.  I find it interesting that you don't care about others opinions regarding this couple's issue.  When during conversation (which you seem to relay here), intelligence tells you these two are walking on very dangerous ground where permanent harm may come, you feel no obligation to suggest that maybe they are taking things too far?

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RE: Undermining a Good Foundation - 5/29/2009 3:44:35 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		If someone enjoyed fucking up my life, I wouldn't trust him either.
Despite how hot this is for them, it has to be reined in to nonessential shorter term stuff if the relationship will continue. Otherwise he will do real harm and end the relationship as an emotional abuser.

I'm curious as to how old they are. Because smart people with any life experience would know that ongoing mind fucks and deep trust do not go hand in hand.

Beyond that a relationship of under a year does not merit total trust. It's too new. It's equivalent to letting a first year med student cut out your appendix. Not a smart idea. Trust grows with time, and the older the people are, or the more damaging their past backgrounds, the longer it takes. Demanding total trust when it isn't there, hasn't been earned would reduce my trust in someone, not increase it.

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RE: Undermining a Good Foundation - 5/29/2009 3:56:22 AM   
lovingpet


Posts: 4270
Joined: 6/19/2005
Status: offline 		Let's see here.  I have expressed my position on the matter to them.  On these boards, however, there will likely be a wide variety of opinions about this being acceptable or not.  One opinion is that it is going too far.  I tend to share that opinion only because this is not conducive to building the trust they desire.  Otherwise, if it were not causing problems, it would not be for anyone to say.

A lot is left open here because I will not put the details of someone else's business on public display.  I am not talking about anything that is harmful in and of itself that is being suggested.  They are simply things that go quite a bit farther than the bedroom in their consequences.  It is the very nature of the play that makes it so attractive to them.  The undermined trust was not deliberate.  It was an unforeseen outcome.  I don't view these people poorly or stupid for the simple reason that they have stopped and begun to take a deeper look at the matter and resolve it.  Stupid people go blindly on in the face of a clear problem.  That simply is not so here.  That is why I have had input in the first place.

I am wanting to know how mental play can impact relationships, especially new ones.  This is something folks can answer based on their own experience.  Trying to determine the rightness of play for another couple is pretty much impossible.  My only reservation is that it is not appropriate for this particular couple at this time.  It doesn't mean it can't work for them later or that it can't work for others in the early stages even though it didn't in this case.  The fact of the matter is, these things he talks about could well be things she very much desires when things are more settled and commited.  Please be careful not to extrapolate information that was not provided.  It wasn't provided for a reason.

lovingpet


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RE: Undermining a Good Foundation - 5/29/2009 4:07:36 AM   
lovingpet


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Status: offline 		I tend to view this as an issue of newness more than anything else.  I think the particular magnitude of the play is happening too soon and damaging trust.  No one is demanding total trust.  She is attempting to get to that point.  They both understand that.  I am not sure why it is being viewed otherwise. 

It may very well be that having more time and history will change the way these current consequences are viewed.  She may not care so much and may even welcome what he is suggesting.  I think they have rushed quite a bit, but I don't think it is such a damnable offense.  I don't know too many folks in any walk of life that haven't gotten ahead of themselves at some point.  I had to pull my opinion back just a bit on the off chance they were simply having a human moment too.  It bristles, I know, but I really am still looking for exactly the response I requested rather than an evaluation of the couple in question.  I am more interested in how this particular form of play functions within the building of a relationship, new or otherwise established.

lovingpet

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RE: Undermining a Good Foundation - 5/29/2009 7:52:35 AM   
MarcEsadrian


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingpet

This question is tied to a situation I am watching and am curious about.  A couple that I would call "fantastic" in all those big time areas including compatibility, communication, trust, respect, etc, and all of a sudden it becomes evident that something is amiss. 

Still it is interesting to me.  The dominant LOVES big mental play.  I am not talking about incidental or session length stuff.  I am talking about toying in areas that would have major life impacts on them both and others in their lives.  She LOVES it.  It is part of the overall intensity to her.  Interestingly enough, it seems to be hindering the building of trust between them.


How about that.

Having well experienced both sides of D/s, I can emphatically say that while it may be the Mistress's right to manipulate and deceive for the sheer entertainment of it all, it is inevitable that irresponsible mind games will reap what they sow on the human psyche—and the relationship, in turn. Granted, unpredictable behavior and trauma are tools of dominance, but they are draconian ones which, depending upon how they are mismanaged or improperly calculated, can seriously backfire. Then again, one person's "mindfuck" is another's mental playground. I suppose if both Mistress and victim are on the "same page", so to speak, there can be a harmony of a sort in their psychodynamics. Unfortunately, such "play" doesn't lend itself to too much open communication, scripting and soul searching, since the majority of its nature centers around what is unpredictable and fear-inducing.

In short, I don't think this is a formula for a productive relationship with most people. Perhaps the devout "mindfuck" types would find the fundamentals of structure, conditioning, stability and responsibility found in the M/s I know I envision to be "boring", but I don't.

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RE: Undermining a Good Foundation - 5/29/2009 10:34:03 AM   
lovingpet


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Joined: 6/19/2005
Status: offline 		It is kind of interesting.  I asked them both point blank if he had ever followed through on any of these things that are part of the mental area of play.  They both told me independent of each other that, no, he had never done any of them for real.  He even went so far as to say that these same things had been fodder in other relationships and he did not go through with them then either.  He believes that when it is proved time and again that he did not cross a serious limit and actually did listen to her concerns, that she would come to realize that he means her no harm.  It is just meant as fun games.

What is also interesting is that she knows this somewhere in there and yet falls prey to the same things every single time.  She admits her history with him proves her insecurities anything but valid.  She says that everything he does tends to discredit her fears.  This is the only point of contention holding her back even though she understands that it is meant to do just the opposite.  It simply does not function in that way for her.

They decided to put all this on the shelf and consider going back to it when things are better established.  They know that, as much both love it, the relationship is far more important.  There is a lot of undoing to be done and a lot of growing together to do.

There are some pretty vehement opinions here and I don't quite grasp the reason for it.  Consenting adults decided to use a form of play (and one that is not uncommon, though this was a very intense level of it) they both enjoyed with unexpected results.  He didn't unilaterally determine to exploit her mentally.  When there was a problem they addressed it and, as I have revealed now, decided to do what was necessary to strengthen their bond rather than indulge further at this time.  There has been unintentional damage to the relationship that they are now healing.  How are they stupid?  How is this an abuse dynamic again?  Those questions are rhetorical, but I am sure someone will feel more than willing to answer them anyway.

Still I want to know how this kind of play is used within current ongoing relationships and have gotten no answer to that.  If it's not part of your dynamic, then I suppose it really is not within your field of experience.  If it is, then that is what I want answered.  It is not for everyone, just like any other form of play.  It doesn't make it a valid practice that people can enjoy and actually grow from.  I am just wondering how it could be done better and produce more positive results should they revisit this later.

lovingpet   

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RE: Undermining a Good Foundation - 5/29/2009 11:39:12 AM   
RavenMuse


Posts: 4030
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingpet
She finds it unfair to drop convoluted thought in his lap and expect him to untangle them for her.


Whats unfair? I don't know the Dynamic of the couple in your example but that wouldn't wash in My Dynamic. We are TPE, I Own her and it isn't HER place to decide what is fair or not to drop in My lap, To second guess what I can help her with or not, to keep things from Me for any reason. In this Dynamic My girl brings everything to Me, if she hasn't got the words to express it then I'll often help her to find those words if she can at least give Me some indication of what it is about. I am the one who decides what is FAIR or not, I am the one who decides whether I feel I can help her and if not they there is usualy at least something I can do to support her whilst she deals with whatever it is.

As for mental play, My girl has found whilst nothing maybe what it seems the one constant is that she is never harmed, no matter how confused or aftraid she may get, no matter how difficult it seems she holds on to that one thing, trust in the fact that I have her interests at heart too and whilst it may hurt, I take great care that it never harms. That nomatter how hard she feels she is falling she knows I will catch her.


_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

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RE: Undermining a Good Foundation - 5/29/2009 12:15:22 PM   
leadership527


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingpet
She finds it unfair to drop convoluted thought in his lap and expect him to untangle them for her.


Whats unfair? I don't know the Dynamic of the couple in your example but that wouldn't wash in My Dynamic. We are TPE, I Own her and it isn't HER place to decide what is fair or not to drop in My lap, To second guess what I can help her with or not, to keep things from Me for any reason.

Heh... Just keeping tabs here, but I'm pretty sure the general statement, "I have deep bubbling thoughts in my head but I don't want to share them with my partner" is contra-indicated for any type of relationship. In my experience, this sort of statement comes out as an effort to rationalize a defense strategy.

Or perhaps another way to think about it is why on earth would you partner up with someone much less submit to them if you didn't think they could help you untangle thoughts.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

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RE: Undermining a Good Foundation - 5/29/2009 12:38:55 PM   
colouredin


Posts: 4279
Joined: 2/2/2007
Status: offline 		At the start of the relationship I think you have to take the mental side slow, as much as people may say they know what they are doing and no one will be hurt trust is formed on people backing up their promises. You dont want instantly to dump your mind on someone else, because it could end up being that you have picked the wrong person to do it with and you may find additional scars added when you get it back.

To me you do it in increments. I have done the wrong thing so many times in relationships, despite being f*cked over so many times I am way too trusting, I believe promises and you know everytime I leave one of those relationships my confidence is that little bit lower, meaning that the next time ironically I will allow someone even more capable of messing me up in.

From that knowledge then I really admire those who are able to hold back when it comes to opening yourself up but I guess its a fine line between being too open and being too closed

_____________________________

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RE: Undermining a Good Foundation - 5/29/2009 1:57:15 PM   
RavenMuse


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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527
In my experience, this sort of statement comes out as an effort to rationalize a defense strategy.


In My experience also. If We are at the point of entering 'A relationship', that is the point she submits and the point which I expect such things to be brought to Me. If she can't then I will help her so long as she tries... if she WON'T then she can sod off and be overly defencive elsewhere because it is a surefire sign to Me that the chemisty I seek isn't there.


_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

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RE: Undermining a Good Foundation - 5/29/2009 2:05:12 PM   
colouredin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse
so long as she tries... if she WON'T then she can sod off


That is a really good point, for some they could be very open when divulging certain things but there are others who if they divulge the same are being closed. Different people are able to let themselves go at different times or different levels of intimacy

_____________________________

Resident Lime(y) Tart
There would be no gossip without secrets
I don't want to be anything other than what I've been trying to be lately

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELvfMJoKDAk

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RE: Undermining a Good Foundation - 5/29/2009 2:27:31 PM   
RavenMuse


Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline 		Yep, finding something difficult isn't something I would blaim a girl for, You just work with them to overcome the problem. But a girl who won't try isn't someone worth My effort. You can't help those who WON'T help themselves.

_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

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RE: Undermining a Good Foundation - 5/29/2009 2:28:36 PM   
lovingpet


Posts: 4270
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Status: offline 		I talked to her again a little while ago.  I was interested to see what the "defense strategy" was she was employing.  I agree that there is definitely one in play, even if she is unaware of it.  She has had trust broken many times in rather grand fashion by both people in her life she sought out and those she was allotted to in this life.  She trusts easily, but has had her hindsight show her how wrong she was after the fact.  She has come a long way from those days, but as she understands it, the trust issue has little to do with him.  She doesn't trust herself to make a good judgment, despite his spotless record with her.  I think maybe we get so focused on whether or not we trust the other person that we forget to consider whether we trust ourselves, or more specifically, trust ourselves WITH this other person.  They are doing the hard work now of trying to unravel all that.

I would say that most folks have a lot of stuff bubbling just under the surface.  I don't think not being able to quite express them is really such a bad thing.  I have to have a clear idea of what I am thinking and my impression of it before I can even begin to delve into it with someone else.  I have been asked what I was thinking when a thought flashed across my face and I honest was unable to say what it was.  It was not within reach for me to even so much as identify it.  Would I be withholding in this case?  I would agree, however, if I know even in part what I want or am feeling and don't find a way to talk about it, then I have become closed.  A partner should be able to sit and help sort things out, but I at least have to have some clue what we are sorting. 

Things come out over time, too.  I don't know that anyone can give a full statement of desires and feelings in one felled swoop.  I can only give what I know and can get to come out of my mouth.  The rest will be discovered along the way as soon as I am able.  Some won't even present themselves at all until some time long in the future.  This, in my view, is the journey. 

lovingpet   

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RE: Undermining a Good Foundation - 5/29/2009 4:12:30 PM   
SylvereApLeanan


Posts: 8275
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From: Hell
Status: offline 		~FR~
 
I'm one of those people who lives for mental play.  I'm deeply into the psychological aspects of WIITWD; so much so that I keep files on subs from the minute I start seriously thinking we might be compatible.  What I see here is the outward appearance of a solid foundation -- but it's an illusion.  To venture into the areas of the psyche that you indicate are being played in, a year is not long enough to establish the level of trust needed.  Doing it with less than a year together is a recipe for disaster, IMO.  This seems to be a case of "too much, too soon."  I love the ocean and I've been swimming in it on many occasions, but I'm not dumb enough to think I can SCUBA dive without learning more about the ocean than I currently know.  It's the same here.  As much as they may love their play, they need to slow down.
 
If I were in the dominant's place, I'd back off and do some lighter forms of mental play while working on the foundation of the relationship.  There are other forms of mental play that can be fulfilling without hindering the trust-building while they get better established.  Her need to process her feelings before bringing them to him might work on some levels, but if they're going to do the type of play it sounds like they want to do, keeping mum about her thoughts/feelings until she comes to some sort of conclusion about them isn't going to fly.  He needs to be involved in every phase of the processing so he can learn how she processes.  In the long run, his having the information will be of benefit to both of them.  As time goes by, they can start to venture into more edgy areas.  Patience is important.

_____________________________

Sylverë
Dark Muse
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Grumpy Cat is my spirit animal.
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RE: Undermining a Good Foundation - 5/29/2009 4:27:12 PM   
lovingpet


Posts: 4270
Joined: 6/19/2005
Status: offline 		Yup!  This is pretty much what my take on it was.  I don't think it is something that can't be saved, but it is going to mean putting this aside, which they have agreed to do for now, and work intently on the relationship itself.  There will be an appropriate time, but that time is not now.

I kind of sided with her a bit, to be honest, that she should have a firmer grip on something before presenting it to him, but I think you are right that he needs to learn HOW she thinks and not just what she thinks.  I thought she could to do be more open, but I think I missed a major aspect.  Thanks for pointing it out!

RavenMuse started me on this line of thinking too.  I didn't think about it in that way.  How on earth is she to know what he needs to know?  She can only bring her little bundle and give it to him to use what he needs or wants and put the rest aside for later.  It is upon him to bring clarity to it, so that he may proceed in a way that is appropriate.

Thanks for the insight!  I am glad that I might have finally gotten this thread straightened out a bit.

lovingpet

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RE: Undermining a Good Foundation - 5/29/2009 5:04:01 PM   
RavenMuse


Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline 		In keeping it to herself SHE is in control, not Him, ergo defencive and not conducive to a D/s relationship and anathama to an M/s one.

It is My decision not hers and I require access to all the relivant information. If she can't give Me it, so long as she tries I will help her get past that in order to get the information. If she WON'T try, then that is willful disobedience. In D/s it maybe part that she hasn't negotiated to give the authority to Him.... In M/s however it isn't her choise and if she is holding it back, refusing to give up that area of control then she isn't a 'slave' that I would find compatable.


_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

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RE: Undermining a Good Foundation - 5/29/2009 5:11:11 PM   
lovingpet


Posts: 4270
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Status: offline 		I see that now pretty alarmingly well.  I will have to admit to having a bit of bias and probably unwilling to see this as it would call some of my own behavior into question.  I think I have some serious work to do of my own.  It was really just a matter of perspective and I am fully awake to it now.  I hope I can ellicit the same within her.  Darn it all!!!!  This wasn't how this was supposed to work! LOL

lovingpet

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RE: Undermining a Good Foundation - 5/29/2009 5:15:46 PM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline 		Yup, I'm going to agree with RM on this one 100% Certainly between Carol and I that's how it is. I expect her to tell me all relevant information. Granted, it's her judgement as to what's relevant but I have good reasons to trust that judgement. Once she has judged it significant, then it doesn't matter whether it is private or scary - then it comes to me. And like you RavenMuse, I'm more than happy to deal with, "I'm scared to talk to you about this..." I would have zero tolerance for "I won't". Interestingly, none of this is a control issue for me. For me, I need the information if I'm to do a good job managing her and us. Ergo, she is required to provide it. And I wouldn't tolerate the "I won't" because of the disobedience implied (although there is that too). I wouldn't have tolerated that from her as my vanilla wife.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

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