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RE: BDSM Saint? - 2/10/2006 9:28:24 AM   
candystripper


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quote:

I'd say the conversion started a lot earlier. The Christian Church Movement (Ok it was the Catholic Church) started to convert and change people in every location they had a foothold in that country. In many cases, they simply "Adopted" holy placey and made the Old Ones (Goods and Goddesses) Saints or deliverately built cathedrals over our (Pagan) sacred sites. never forget that Lourdes and the attached Lady was originally a sacred healing site for the Pagans with it's attached Goddess. The same with St Bridgit and her well in Ireland. Stone the crows, wven 98% oif the Catholid Mass is of Pagan Origin. Strangely enough many of the best Pagan Priestesses are good old Catholoc girls who converted to Wicca and other forms of Paganism. (They uderstand the concept of the Goddess ~ Virgin Mary ~ and have a love of ritual.

IronBear


i had no idea...how corrupt. Sir, can You recommend a book on Wiccan/Paganism? TY.

candystripper

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RE: BDSM Saint? - 2/10/2006 11:20:34 AM   
IronBear


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Give me a few hours or a day to get my thoughts together and clear a few things candy sweet and I'll message you a list of books which should be readilky available. However you'll need to let me know if you want general knowledge or specific areas. Failing that just hit me with questions on messanger and I'll answer them.

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

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RE: BDSM Saint? - 2/10/2006 11:52:22 AM   
candystripper


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so true, da.

candystripper

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RE: BDSM Saint? - 2/10/2006 1:46:53 PM   
LadiesBladewing


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Then what would you do with folks like our household, for whom this lifestyle is an integral expression of our spirituality -- and our spirituality an integral expression of our M/s life?

Just because it isn't spiritual for you doesn't mean that others can't recognize and shouldn't be able to comment/post on their own connections.

It is possible to spend -far- too much time shutting other people up and trying to restrict what they can and can't talk about while expecting to be allowed to have "freedom of speech" for oneself.

Lady Zephyr

quote:

ORIGINAL: FTopinMichigan

I'm not confused, but surprised to see the topic of "religion" to be a regular topic (lately)on a BDSM message forum. I don't see it has a place here myself.

Separation of church and lifestyle!

K

Edited for typo only


< Message edited by LadiesBladewing -- 2/10/2006 1:47:45 PM >


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RE: BDSM Saint? - 2/10/2006 4:29:01 PM   
candystripper


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Why TY Ma'am.

candystripper

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RE: BDSM Saint? - 2/10/2006 6:15:48 PM   
KittenWithaTwist


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This story has nothing to do with BDSM. It is a story of a woman forced into slavery. There are stories like this all over the globe, even today. Being someone's forced servant is hardly a BDSM scenario.

_____________________________

"Time travel: It's a cornocopia of disturbing concepts." ~Ron Stoppable

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RE: BDSM Saint? - 2/10/2006 6:21:39 PM   
KittenWithaTwist


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ExistentialSteel

I would have kept her a slave and trained her to like it. She would have never given it up to become a nun or whatever it was. She would have lived happily ever after being used by her owner.



Oh boy.

_____________________________

"Time travel: It's a cornocopia of disturbing concepts." ~Ron Stoppable

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RE: BDSM Saint? - 2/11/2006 6:36:54 AM   
darkinshadows


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KittenWithaTwist

This story has nothing to do with BDSM. It is a story of a woman forced into slavery. There are stories like this all over the globe, even today. Being someone's forced servant is hardly a BDSM scenario.


And being a servant to someone when it isnt forced, isnt just a BDSM scenario either, and those stories are all over the net. It isnt about the enforced slavery. There are elements of the freedom of submission and finding the freedom to be what one is and meant to be... whatever circumstance.
Its the strength not the force.

Peace and Rapture


_____________________________


.dark.




...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

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RE: BDSM Saint? - 2/11/2006 11:07:17 AM   
MasterOwnskitty


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Dear Candy,

i read what you wrote and i hope i've gotten from it what you've intended for the reader to "get".
What you've written is very deep meaningful to you and i think you should be commended for your willingness to share such personal feelings -- the kind people usually keep to themselves in a journal somewhere and usually are not shared out of fear of ridicule or judgement from O/others.

i can relate to what you've written very well because Master and i do a lot of soul-searching in these ways. W/we often are working to try and combine M/s-BDSM-spiritual aspects together because W/we are also in a love relationship and would like to see all of it as a whole in how W/we relate to each other. W/we intend to be married and so W/we approach the aspect of incorporating those principles as a life-long endeavor.

i have often pondered the issue of subs and slaves relying so heavily on, and put blind faith in, their Masters. It's through my observation and experience that oftentimes subs/slaves are let down so hard because Masters are only human and thus have human frailty and limitations. As much as a Master and/or his submissive would like for Him to be "God-like" in the human relationship, truly no human Master can be "God" and nor meet the spiritual needs that "God" can. (If it's not God for you, put Who or What you want there.)

This is in no way meant to be disrespectful but is where i feel BDSM and spirituality come together, whether it's denied or not:

Many sub/slaves look up to their Masters lovingly, just wishing and hoping and pleading for Them to meet their every need emotionally. Many Masters say to Their subs and/or slaves: "Rely on me...rely on me..." and even if the Master wishes for it, He or She cannot be completely relied upon to fill this void. However, many times the sub/slave thinks that this One can, because he or she has been told that He or She can. But it is only the physical and emotional parts that can be dealt with -- not the spiritual parts which are also a part of the emotional. This is where the disappointment comes in. And this disappointment is amplified by the fact that the void still exists, no matter how much "homage" is paid to this One who is supposed to be able to heal those feelings...because He or She can't.

The longing to be subservient and reliant on a Master is one that i have had for years. It had occured to me -- especially in living it day in and day out -- that a Master, no matter how skillful, can't completely meet the inner needs of an individual that only spirituality can. Spirituality, even if shared with another, is individual -- it is between Y/you and Y/your Source. Even knowing this, a part of me still tries to derive this type of satisfaction from O/our relationship. i've found that in doing so, i wind up putting what i feel to be a lot of unnecessary pressure on my Master to meet those needs -- and realized that it may not be entirely fair to Him for me to do so. Just a thought.

i know these issues bring the element of autonomy into the M/s relationship that many wish to eliminate, and i'm not speculating that there is not any "right" or "wrong" way. These are my own personal thoughts and it had occured to me, that upon trying to eliminate autonomy in O/our own relationship, there was this theory that surfaced for me. i don't intend for this to create any kind of a wedge. i just found meaning in this post and found it to be closely linked to what i'd been hashing out in my own mind.

Am i even close to what you were talking about, candy?! Lol!

~dawna

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RE: BDSM Saint? - 2/11/2006 11:25:48 AM   
FTopinMichigan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadiesBladewing

It is possible to spend -far- too much time shutting other people up and trying to restrict what they can and can't talk about while expecting to be allowed to have "freedom of speech" for oneself.

Lady Zephyr

quote:

ORIGINAL: FTopinMichigan

I'm not confused, but surprised to see the topic of "religion" to be a regular topic (lately)on a BDSM message forum. I don't see it has a place here myself.

Separation of church and lifestyle!

K

Edited for typo only



In that you choose to quote me, I have to point out that expressing my own "surprise," and opinion, is not akin to telling someone to shut up.

K

(in reply to LadiesBladewing)
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RE: BDSM Saint? - 2/11/2006 4:20:20 PM   
KittenWithaTwist


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My point is that the title of this thread and the information contained therein seems to imply that this woman is bdsm oriented because she happened to be a forced captive. Obviously forced captivity, non-consensual sex slavery, and endentured (sp?) servitude are not states of BDSM. They exist worldwide, and are particularly common in second and third world countries, though certainly not specifically so.

If one would like to learn more about slavery, check out Amnesty International. Slavery, like what this woman experienced is no where near BDSM, as the OP implies.

_____________________________

"Time travel: It's a cornocopia of disturbing concepts." ~Ron Stoppable

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RE: BDSM Saint? - 2/12/2006 12:56:32 PM   
darkinshadows


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KittenWithaTwist

My point is that the title of this thread and the information contained therein seems to imply that this woman is bdsm oriented because she happened to be a forced captive. Obviously forced captivity, non-consensual sex slavery, and endentured (sp?) servitude are not states of BDSM. They exist worldwide, and are particularly common in second and third world countries, though certainly not specifically so.

If one would like to learn more about slavery, check out Amnesty International. Slavery, like what this woman experienced is no where near BDSM, as the OP implies.


I know You cant see it kitten, but it is there... Just not probably in the concept as you see it, seeing as Your centring on the enforced slavery, rather than the concensual thats present.
So from that point of view, I dont see the title as misleading. But thats just a differing of opinion. Take care.

Peace and Rapture


_____________________________


.dark.




...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

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RE: BDSM Saint? - 2/13/2006 4:13:42 AM   
KittenWithaTwist


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I'm not saying that there was no consensual part to this story, but the only part that this woman consented to was when she became a nun. I am not sure, but it seems as though you are suggesting that becoming a nun is somehow related to BDSM, so perhaps all nuns are BDSM saints? I have no clue.



_____________________________

"Time travel: It's a cornocopia of disturbing concepts." ~Ron Stoppable

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RE: BDSM Saint? - 2/13/2006 5:00:31 AM   
delectablepink


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Dear MasterOwnsKitty:

What a great post. i have a few reactions.

No one person can fulfill the emotional needs of another entirely; people need friends, family, neighbors, kids, etc. Even M/s couples must live "in" the world.

W/we can discuss spirituality, and worship together, and study together, but ultimately W/we are alone on O/our path to God. No offense to the athetists.

There's a thread i wrote (Gawd knows what nick) called "Planning for BDSM Couples and Families". It touches on some realities that the questions you raised seem to speak to, especially "rely on me".

delectable pink fka candystripper


< Message edited by delectablepink -- 2/13/2006 5:01:37 AM >

(in reply to MasterOwnskitty)
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RE: BDSM Saint? - 2/13/2006 5:05:29 AM   
delectablepink


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Joined: 2/11/2006
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quote:

My point is that the title of this thread and the information contained therein seems to imply that this woman is bdsm oriented because she happened to be a forced captive. Obviously forced captivity, non-consensual sex slavery, and endentured (sp?) servitude are not states of BDSM. They exist worldwide, and are particularly common in second and third world countries, though certainly not specifically so.

If one would like to learn more about slavery, check out Amnesty International. Slavery, like what this woman experienced is no where near BDSM, as the OP implies.

KittenWithaTwist


You make a good point -- it was not my intention to denigrate the suffering of forced slaves. However, the title of the Op is "BDSM Saint?" and that question mark is meant to indicate a discussion is expected. As i said, she had a great story; won her freedom but gave herself to a Master.

delectable pink


< Message edited by delectablepink -- 2/13/2006 5:06:12 AM >

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RE: BDSM Saint? - 9/29/2006 7:31:00 AM   
switchmt


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Check this out re St Therese of Lisieux, it's interesting..

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/pwh/st-therese.html

It's an article by Paul Halsall, 'the transgendered sexual imagery of St Theresa of Lisieux'.



< Message edited by switchmt -- 9/29/2006 7:32:12 AM >

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RE: BDSM Saint? - 9/29/2006 9:23:44 AM   
Dnomyar


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Religion is a JOKE. Love thy neighbors. The ones we hate we will hold an inquisition for. Drugs are bad so we will get the Chineese hooked on Opium. Let's help the Germans hide their treasures. I can go on and on but why. I agree that religion has no place here.

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RE: BDSM Saint? - 9/29/2006 9:33:14 AM   
switchmt


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I think more than religion, it's some people who may be A JOKE. I mean the hypocrite who attempts to appear as 'holier than thou' etc. The problem is with people (and you'll find this in all layers of society), not with religion itself. (religion itself can be abused)

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RE: BDSM Saint? - 9/29/2006 9:47:59 AM   
LordODiscipline


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quote:

Sir, as a rule, Catholic Missions will not dispense medicine, education or food unless the individual converts.


This is not true.
 
Catholic missions intended to assist the disparate are not allowed to withold assistance from anyone requiring it - as long as they are legitimately in need and supply is adequate.
 
~J

_____________________________

"Anyone who thinks they're important is usually just a pompous moron who can't deal with his or her own pathetic insignificance and the fact that what they do is meaningless and inconsequential."
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RE: BDSM Saint? - 9/29/2006 9:54:16 AM   
Missokyst


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I believe in God, I don't believe in the teachings of religions.  Or at least, I don't believe in the interpretation of men on those teachings.  
Humanity tends to slant things to their own end.

Saints are rarely more than humans with an interesting story.  Few of the sainted have been accredited with miracles which is listed as an indicator of accession to sainthood.

In the case of this story, it does look like she chose a master in God.  Not a bad choice, though, I doubt that BDSM is part of her life. 

Of course, she could always practice self-flagellation.

Kyst

_____________________________

pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding ~Gibran, Kahlil

“The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for.”
― Bob Marley


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