RE: christian terrorism? (Full Version)

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NihilusZero -> RE: christian terrorism? (6/1/2009 9:12:47 PM)

This is depressing.

I don't ascribe to the 'inescapable brain-washing via the media' argument. Obviously, there are plenty of iffy folks that espouse these idiotic notions and don't actually take it to the point of committing an atrocious crime. It should, however, give some of the folks pause for thought about the extravagant morality-driven idiocy they sometimes shovel at herds of people who like nothing more than to make heroes or villains (with usually nothing in between) out of people.



Sanity -> RE: christian terrorism? (6/1/2009 9:21:14 PM)


That's the same sort of attitude, mindset, whatever, that you're condemning.


quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
And so, kitten, if someone murders O'Reilly tonight will that be Salon's fault for exercising their free speech rights so far as O'Reilly is concerned?


Don't make me go to sleep with impossible fantasies: it makes waking up too painful.



Sanity -> RE: christian terrorism? (6/1/2009 9:22:42 PM)


Or, politically driven.


quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

This is depressing.

I don't ascribe to the 'inescapable brain-washing via the media' argument. Obviously, there are plenty of iffy folks that espouse these idiotic notions and don't actually take it to the point of committing an atrocious crime. It should, however, give some of the folks pause for thought about the extravagant morality-driven idiocy they sometimes shovel at herds of people who like nothing more than to make heroes or villains (with usually nothing in between) out of people.




Kirata -> RE: christian terrorism? (6/1/2009 9:59:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

This is depressing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Or, politically driven.

Which is also depressing.

K.





kittinSol -> RE: christian terrorism? (6/1/2009 10:14:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
It should, however, give some of the folks pause for thought about the extravagant morality-driven idiocy they sometimes shovel at herds of people who like nothing more than to make heroes or villains (with usually nothing in between) out of people.


I completely agree with this.

Sanity, you ought to know me better than to draw a radical conclusion out of an offhand comment I made (because of an irrelevant buffoon, whose name I shan't bother the boards with), when it deserves nothing more. I know you're angry these days, but I also know that you possess a sense of humour: please, do keep in touch with it.



philosophy -> RE: christian terrorism? (6/1/2009 11:04:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

Amaxing how sensitive some are to the words christian and terrorism being put in the same sentence, when i don't see the same standard being applied to islamic and terrorism.

I can't imagine why that would be. Let me scratch my head a while. I'll get back to you.

K.






...scratch your head all you like. It's still a double standard.



RCdc -> RE: christian terrorism? (6/1/2009 11:54:09 PM)

Thats bullshit Phil and I am surprised at you.
One of the first things I said was that it didnt matter if it was christian or any religious organisation - it wouldn't matter if you put a certain political affinity - it was STILL sensationalist and invidious and a button presser - and you know it whether you want to admit it or not.
 
You have just as much responsibility for writing and people reading - journalism and writers are not exempt from responsibility.
 
the.dark.



philosophy -> RE: christian terrorism? (6/2/2009 12:50:20 AM)

i'm sorry you feel that way Darcy. However i'm not writing in bad faith. A group of terrorists, who happen to be Islamic, commit murder because of a misguided interpretation of their beliefs, and we have no problem with calling it Islamic terrorism. A Christian who commits murder because of a similar misguided view of their beliefs apparently can't be called Christian terrorism.
i honestly don't understand why you can't see that parallel. To me it's a double standard. A number of posters here have castigated me for this......and yet have not addressed my point. They've scratched their head, called what i've written bullshit, compared me to Rush Limbaugh.......but none have bothered to address the point.
If a Muslim commits murder in the name of their religion in order to change something in the world, it gets called terrorism. If a Christian commits murder in the name of their religion to change something in the world........well, i call it terrorism. Because what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.



Kirata -> RE: christian terrorism? (6/2/2009 1:43:09 AM)

The phrase "Islamic Terrorism" refers to a campaign of wholesale murder being conducted on an international scale by a loose global conspiracy of radical Islamist groups.

In my view, the fact that maybe every couple of years or so we have some isolated nut shoot an abortionist does not merit being characterized as "Christian Terrorism," and does not support the implication of prejudice or congential defect which attends your insistence that anyone who disagrees with you is applying a "double standard."

K.







Zevar -> RE: christian terrorism? (6/2/2009 4:53:24 AM)

Greetings Phil:

It is early here for me and I have just read more of this thread while waking to the noise of the city. I wanted to take a few moments and post the following before I am off to my daily tasks and responsibilities.

To begin initially by the subject title "christian terrorism?" I did not equate this thread to be about the recent killing of a Dr. who was murdered while in Church. I was pointed in this direction of this thread after the fact of my starting a thread on this topic unknowingly that there was already a thread. I was led by Mod12 to this discussion as I noted in another post herein.

I do not equate the killing of the Dr. as an act of "christian terrorism" Quite frankly I do not know of a working definition for such. Obviously you do from what I read in the thread. Yet it is not clearly defined. Indeed you have every right to view this killing as you deem it so.This I am sure you know.

While I do not view this killing as an act of "christian terrorism" per se, I do view this merciless act of murder more as an act of mere misguided cowardice. In that this Dr. did not deserve to be murdered for practicing what he believed in and was murdered while he was defendless against this brutal killing.

IMO - This act was more than likely spawned out of ignorance, hatred and executed by a coward. Regardless of the misguided thoughts that led up to this killing I would venture to say that this killing has done nothing to prevent legal abortions from being performed nor will yet even more tactics like this stop furture abortions from being legally performed.

Further I cannot support the notion that this killing was a result of some form of "terrorism" that was similiarly plotted to carry out the treacherous acts executed on September 11th @ the Twin Towers and other such "terrorism" globally.

I would hope you are willing to support your ideology of "christian terrorism" by offering in a reply posting at the least the working definition by which you claim this terminology.

I am genuinely interested in better understanding your framework surrounding this ideology which you present. I look forward to your reply.

Thanks!

I wish you well,
~ Zevar ~













philosophy -> RE: christian terrorism? (6/2/2009 7:40:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zevar

I would hope you are willing to support your ideology of "christian terrorism" by offering in a reply posting at the least the working definition by which you claim this terminology.



....you're quite right. It all comes down to definitions. So, let's start with Christian in this context. Someone who uses the bible, or quotes from it, to support their actions or ideology. The conclusions they draw need not be the accepted conclusions of the wider Christian community. Just as the 9/11 terrorists used the Koran to support their actions and ideology, but the wider Islamic community do not share their interpretation.
Terrorist is, in my view, a relatively simple definition. One who uses violence, usually murder, in support of a wider political agenda.....intended to intimidate either a state or a group into a course of action or non-action. For instance, the IRA used violence to attempt to intimidate the UK government into initiating a political process by which Ulster would become part of the Republic of Ireland. ETA, the Basque terrorists, wanted a Basque homeland. The 9/11 bombers want Western presence out of the middle east. This recent shooting, and the incidents before it, are intended to intimidate doctors into not performing abortions. Therefore terrorism.

Hope that makes my position clear. It seems that others are trying to create more complex definitions in order to not have to characterise this as christian terrorism. Like, it's only terrorism if it happens more often...or its only terrorism if its international.....i find this saddening and the abuse given to me on this thread more so.



Crush -> RE: christian terrorism? (6/2/2009 8:09:11 AM)


We have no terrorism now...it is all "man made disasters" ;}

I think the thing we are missing is that terrorism has as a goal of "terror" being created.   It doesn't mean anyone has to be killed, just that people have to have a fear impinging on them.  Usually from a non mainstream ideology.

For example, ELF buring SUVs.  Nobody gets killed, but it does make SUV dealers and owners a bit fearful that they'd be struck at random next.

PETA painting furs people wear.  No one gets hurt physically, but fiscally and emotionally damage is generated and it makes others concerned about wearing their furs.

atropa, there is no statute of limitations on their actions.   If they had killed someone 50 years ago, they still would be liable for their actions.   If they had stolen a package of gum, then yes, they wouldn't be being sought anymore.  Obviously, if they are still being sought, then they are wanted for more than stealing a pack of gum....for terrorism, in particular.








kdsub -> RE: christian terrorism? (6/2/2009 8:40:16 AM)

So that is your view of Christians...lol...figures... One more nut case...say that makes two....wow it must be terrorism now...two out of 225,000,000 yep glad you are on the case. Wait...there may have been three...oh my goodness I'll pull the covers over my head tonight.

Can't you see how putting a few nutcases out front as proof of organized terrorism is just fear of being wrong?

Butch



rulemylife -> RE: christian terrorism? (6/2/2009 8:41:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

Thats bullshit Phil and I am surprised at you.
One of the first things I said was that it didnt matter if it was christian or any religious organisation - it wouldn't matter if you put a certain political affinity - it was STILL sensationalist and invidious and a button presser - and you know it whether you want to admit it or not.
 
You have just as much responsibility for writing and people reading - journalism and writers are not exempt from responsibility.
 
the.dark.


What you are doing is willfully ignoring the numerous links that have been posted here tying in the shooter to extremist Christian groups.

From seeing many of your other posts you seem very devout in your beliefs, but don't let your beliefs blind you to the fact there is a network of these groups that actively support actions like this.

Even among the pro-life groups denouncing this you can be sure many members are privately saying he got what he deserved.



RCdc -> RE: christian terrorism? (6/2/2009 8:50:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

What you are doing is willfully ignoring the numerous links that have been posted here tying in the shooter to extremist Christian groups.

 
Incorrect.  I know he was linked to a christian group.  That doesn't change the fact that the title is provocative.  Saying it was 'just a question' is lame and a little naive.

quote:

From seeing many of your other posts you seem very devout in your beliefs, but don't let your beliefs blind you to the fact there is a network of these groups that actively support actions like this.
 
If you think I am a christian.  Guess again.[;)] 
Don't assume an interest in religious writings and icons as a sign of belief.

quote:

Even among the pro-life groups denouncing this you can be sure many members are privately saying he got what he deserved.
Then they are pretty nasty people IMO.
 
the.dark.



subrob1967 -> RE: christian terrorism? (6/2/2009 8:53:19 AM)

So this is the first terrorist attack on U.S. soil under Obama's watch.



RCdc -> RE: christian terrorism? (6/2/2009 9:00:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
If a Muslim commits murder in the name of their religion in order to change something in the world, it gets called terrorism. If a Christian commits murder in the name of their religion to change something in the world........well, i call it terrorism. Because what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.


Phil, I don't deny it is christian terrorism.  The more information that is gleamed pretty much points to it from my perspective.  My point is that posting that title as you did was provocative.  So wither you knew that or you were far more naive than my impression of you.  It's either a learning experience you are going through, or you are denying the impact your words had.  That decision is your choice.
 
A terrorist attempts to cause change by fear.  Sure there are christians that do that.  No I don't believe muslims should be singled out - after all, like you, I grew up in the UK at a time where people routinely were murdered or lost their homes and communities because of Northern Ireland.
 
the.dark.



NihilusZero -> RE: christian terrorism? (6/2/2009 9:14:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Crush

I think the thing we are missing is that terrorism has as a goal of "terror" being created.

20 points.

Such as fewer medical practitioners feeling their livelihood and lives are safe while they do their jobs.



NihilusZero -> RE: christian terrorism? (6/2/2009 9:16:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

So this is the first terrorist attack on U.S. soil under Obama's watch.

Actually, I think this was. Still one born within the borders of the country, though.



Arpig -> RE: christian terrorism? (6/2/2009 10:55:06 AM)

Personally I don't see what is so wrong with the thread title. Why is it so provocative? What is so wrong with it? What is wrong with calling a spade a spade? The guy is an religious extremist who carried out a terrorist attack in the name of his twisted beliefs, how does that differ from the 9/11 attackers? The only difference is one of scale. Sure the title of the thread caught our attention, but that is the purpose of a thread title. I think Philosophy has struck a nerve here, but I agree with him, this was an act of christian terrorism, plain and simple.



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