RE: Is belief......? (Full Version)

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beargonewild -> RE: Is belief......? (6/1/2009 1:52:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: beargonewild

I can agree with that .dark. As of yet I don't believe that science has been able to prove or disprove the existence of a soul through any known scientific means.

That's because it is an incoherent idea without any testable falsifiable hypotheses.


Yet it also a possibility that science hasn't the ability nor the means to be able to test the hypothesis that a soul does exist;  at least not yet.



blacksword404 -> RE: Is belief......? (6/1/2009 1:53:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

ORIGINAL: blacksword404

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

Then all of a sudden the Sumerians pop up practically with all the knowledge. They are the first in everything.


They'd have to share credit with ancient India and China, at the very least.



Maybe so. It should be interesting to see what we find out in the next 20 to 30 years.

That's what people were saying 20 and 30 years ago, blacksword.

We just wore bell-bottoms then.

Same story, different day.

Welcome to the redawning of the Age of Aquarius. Or the rehashing of old sci-fi ideas presented as history. Or the end of days. Or the rapture. Or whatever version of this centuries old fantasy comes around next.


[sm=abducted.gif]


I can just see it now. Sitting around telling kids how it was in my day.

Me: I used to be able to tell when it was time to go get on the bus by what was on tv. I left after the snorks came on and just after james bond jr.

Kid: Whats a tv?

Me: It was a box run on electricity that played pictures and sound.

Kid: Oh. Kind of like the retinal projections we have now.

Me: Yea sort of. You kids nowadays have it easy. We used to have to wake up early in the morning and  walk up the street in the cold and dark to catch the bus.

Kid: Well we just use the energy of our thought waves to instantaneously transport wherever we want.

"It is by will alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of Sapho that thoughts acquire speed, the lips acquire stains, the stains become a warning. It is by will alone I set my mind in motion."

Lmao. Just no telling.



NihilusZero -> RE: Is belief......? (6/1/2009 1:55:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apocalypso

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
That's because it is an incoherent idea without any testable falsifiable hypotheses.
Is it any more so than concepts like "truth" or "freedom" or "justice"?


Those are constructs. They are ideals that are understood to have no meaning aside from how they are geoculturally placed.

I mean, "truth" is a red herring...since people both on the reality side and the imagination side want to appropriate the term for themselves. "Truth", unfortunately, always has the "personal subjective truth" side which everyone can, at last hope, resort to. I would think the term, though, is intended to try and determine things that are as close to universal as possible.

"Freedom" and "justice" are, now that I think about it...just as flimsy. Freedom is also an imaginary idea. Everything in reality is built upon constriction. The only freedom we have is the expanse of what is left (maybe it's more anthropic and pretty to see it otherwise, though). And justice is another subjective term that has no universal personal meaning and, on the other side, isn't useful to the argument as it pertains to legal regulations.



DomKen -> RE: Is belief......? (6/1/2009 1:55:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: beargonewild
I can agree with that .dark. As of yet I don't believe that science has been able to prove or disprove the existence of a soul through any known scientific means.

Describe "soul" in some sort of scientifically relevant manner and it will get tested for.



Arpig -> RE: Is belief......? (6/1/2009 1:57:18 PM)

quote:

What books did you read to find your info from? I might like to get my hands on them.

Actually I just did a little research online.

quote:

the Summerians were not even the first to practice irrigation agriulture in their region (That was the Samara culture 5700 – 4900 BC).
Sorry, I misplelled the name, it is not Samara (that is a culture along the middle Volga), it is the Samarra culture, from which descended the Ubaid culture, from which descended the Sumerian culture.
http://ancientneareast.tripod.com/Samarra_Culture.html
http://www.historytoday.com/historicaldictionary.aspx?m=476&amid=2793
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Samarra

quote:

They were not the first to develop cities, there are several cities which pre-date the Summerians (Jericho being one).

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-are-the-oldest-cities-in-the-world.htm
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn1808-drowned-indian-city-could-be-worlds-oldest.html

quote:

The Indus civilisation arose at approximatly the same time as that of the Summerians (roughly 5500 BCE),

http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/prehistory/india/indus/geography.html
http://archaeology.about.com/od/mterms/g/mehrgarh.htm
http://www.shaikhsiddiqui.com/mehrgarh.html

I think that should suffice to show that my points were indeed backed up. [:)]



NihilusZero -> RE: Is belief......? (6/1/2009 2:02:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: beargonewild

Yet it also a possibility that science hasn't the ability nor the means to be able to test the hypothesis that a soul does exist;  at least not yet.


That's called special pleading.

The reason why I made an edit to include the word "falsifiable" is because a hypothesis is empirically useless if it cannot be proven wrong. No matter what gauges, rules, tricorders, thermometers, scanners or inner x-ray machines we create...if they are incapable of "reading" the presence of a soul, there will always be the argument that the soul must exude an energy different than what was being measured. Conversely, any anomaly or indication of something being measured can be attributed to such a presence even if that's not what's causing it (until it is formally known what did cause it).



blacksword404 -> RE: Is belief......? (6/1/2009 2:11:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

I mean, "truth" is a red herring...since people both on the reality side and the imagination side want to appropriate the term for themselves. "Truth", unfortunately, always has the "personal subjective truth" side which everyone can, at last hope, resort to. I would think the term, though, is intended to try and determine things that are as close to universal as possible.



I think there is also an ultimate truth. One so rigid  that we would reject it. Simply because we tend to want our brand of truth rather than what is.



beargonewild -> RE: Is belief......? (6/1/2009 2:11:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: beargonewild

Yet it also a possibility that science hasn't the ability nor the means to be able to test the hypothesis that a soul does exist;  at least not yet.


That's called special pleading.

The reason why I made an edit to include the word "falsifiable" is because a hypothesis is empirically useless if it cannot be proven wrong. No matter what gauges, rules, tricorders, thermometers, scanners or inner x-ray machines we create...if they are incapable of "reading" the presence of a soul, there will always be the argument that the soul much exude an energy different than what was being measured. Conversely, any anomaly or indication of something being measured can be attributed to such a presence even if that's not what's causing it (until it is formally known what did cause it).


Thanks for clarifying.....I can see this topic is getting a little bit out of my league!



MarcEsadrian -> RE: Is belief...? (6/1/2009 2:15:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Is belief in something possibly supernatural really a lack of belief in science ?



It is in our nature as a species to believe in spiritual things and "be spiritual" in general. I don't think there are many individuals who are so polarized in their viewpoints about spiritualism and science as to be fully in one camp or the other. While I am about as "atheist" as one can get, I'm still open to possibilities about what we don't know. As intellectually responsible thinkers, I feel we should be open. That doesn't mean one should buy into a belief label, or swallow ludicrous human-centric stories about creationism and gods; while it may serve as a social glue for the people in the village, it's not an exploration of reality or what could truly be.

Ultimately, we must accept the very likely possibility there is no real "answer" as we like to think of answers, and if there indeed is something akin to an answer, it's not meant for human minds. Likewise, it's very possible science will one day be capable of explaining everything. But by then, I doubt humans will be human, anyway.



NihilusZero -> RE: Is belief......? (6/1/2009 2:17:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: blacksword404

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

I mean, "truth" is a red herring...since people both on the reality side and the imagination side want to appropriate the term for themselves. "Truth", unfortunately, always has the "personal subjective truth" side which everyone can, at last hope, resort to. I would think the term, though, is intended to try and determine things that are as close to universal as possible.



I think there is also an ultimate truth. One so rigid  that we would reject it. Simply because we tend to want our brand of truth rather than what is.

So, the only parameter you've set forth to determine if something is an "ultimate truth" is:

  • Something we reject because we want our own version of that thing instead.

[megaphone announcement]
Okay. Everyone go home. All of you CMers that think you want a WIITWD relationship are just confused about the ultimate truth that you are (and are supposed to be) vanilla folk.
[/megaphone announcement]



NihilusZero -> RE: Is belief......? (6/1/2009 2:23:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: beargonewild

Thanks for clarifying.....I can see this topic is getting a little bit out of my league!


Oh, stop! [8D] It's not a matter of "league"! Apologies if I come across as anything alluding to that.

The catch about all this is that even is such a thing exists, it is of a nature that is beyond our ability to determine if it is real. Now, some people like to decide for themselves that that is where they would install their 'faith' or 'belief' parameters...and I'm all for people being able to do with their bodies and their brains whatever is best for them. I don't ascribe to that idea myself...but I certainly try not to stomp on those ideas on a personal level.

The only thing that ends up getting me jumping to debate is when those people don't realize that the idea they have is, by nature, one which will never have an empirical support. Because of that, even if it's true, we can never test it to determine (even) how it works...at which point, it gives us no information. It's like guessing the right answer to a complicated math equation. You got the answer right, but it's not helped you understand the problem at all (and with the case of the soul, we would never know if we got the right answer or not).

Plus, from what I've seen of your contributions to the boards, you are certainly not someone I'd like to have leaving a conversation. [:)]



Musicmystery -> RE: Is belief......? (6/1/2009 2:23:33 PM)

quote:

Intellectual affirmative action


This phrase is definitely a keeper!

[;)]




Musicmystery -> RE: Is belief......? (6/1/2009 2:27:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:

ORIGINAL: beargonewild
So postulating from this paragraph, it's safe to say that this is a good example where religion and science is in agreement. It is the biology which creates the physical body and the soul is God's creation?


If science thinks that also, then sure, it's a start.
 
the.dark.

While individual scientists might well believe that, science cannot ever think that, as the soul is not an observable entity, and so is outside of the realm of science.

The division is more or less an unofficial "deal" Réne Descartes made with the Catholic Church, each accepting its "territory" -- i.e., the "ghost in the machine."

It has more to do with 17th century religious politics than with either science or philosophy.





Apocalypso -> RE: Is belief......? (6/1/2009 2:28:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
The reason why I made an edit to include the word "falsifiable" is because a hypothesis is empirically useless if it cannot be proven wrong.
Surely materialism (in the philosophical sense of the word) is equally unfalsifiable, at least using emperical methods?



Musicmystery -> RE: Is belief......? (6/1/2009 2:30:09 PM)

quote:

I can agree with that .dark. As of yet I don't believe that science has been able to prove or disprove the existence of a soul through any known scientific means.


Thus, it's untestable, and as such, can never be a hypothesis, and is not a scientific question.





Musicmystery -> RE: Is belief......? (6/1/2009 2:32:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Apocalypso

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
That's because it is an incoherent idea without any testable falsifiable hypotheses.
Is it any more so than concepts like "truth" or "freedom" or "justice"?


Yes. We can test to see whether things hold true. Freedom and justice are defined concepts, both of which can be observed.





NihilusZero -> RE: Is belief......? (6/1/2009 2:34:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apocalypso

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
The reason why I made an edit to include the word "falsifiable" is because a hypothesis is empirically useless if it cannot be proven wrong.
Surely materialism (in the philosophical sense of the word) is equally unfalsifiable, at least using emperical methods?


I guess if you want to call completely into question the reliability of our senses and their ability to determine reality. This could be The Matrix, yes.



Musicmystery -> RE: Is belief......? (6/1/2009 2:35:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: beargonewild

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: beargonewild

I can agree with that .dark. As of yet I don't believe that science has been able to prove or disprove the existence of a soul through any known scientific means.

That's because it is an incoherent idea without any testable falsifiable hypotheses.


Yet it also a possibility that science hasn't the ability nor the means to be able to test the hypothesis that a soul does exist;  at least not yet.


You are missing the point, bear. That inability to test is what makes it not scientific inquiry, but pure speculation, to be believed or not, perhaps, but not a question for science. It's not an observable phenomenon.





beargonewild -> RE: Is belief......? (6/1/2009 2:40:07 PM)

Not to worry Nihilus as you weren't coming across as such, it was my sense that the topic was getting into a few concepts which I hadn't had to wrap my mind around in ages!

The point I was trying to get around with earlier regarding science not being able to test and measure what a soul is is based upon having read and studied many different religious views regarding souls and especially in the realm of metaphysics. The thing is, many different cultures talk about "chi" or "prana" and many other names for this energy or soul that has been written countless times. So of course it has me questioning the fact that it is highly possible that the scientific world has yet to devise a way to quantify, measure and detect this "energy" or "soul"



OrionTheWolf -> RE: Is belief......? (6/1/2009 2:41:50 PM)

Hi Tim,

Science is not always 100% correct though. Even the laws of gravity have been tested and proven to not be exact with the Pioneer anomoly. Now there have been tests showing that through the power of prayer, or meditation, over all bodily health improves. There are some things religious, that can be observed and explained. As time goes by, more and more can be explained, and more of the hocus pocus can be shown to be just that.

Live well,
Orion



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